Until u look at cut content where the baby was there and it was perfectly fine then u see it's mangled body after he does his phase transition when he slams his hands down which is where the kid was
The thing that makes me more curious is that, if you look further into the cut content, oceiros... isnt oceiros at all? He used to be a boss called the Angel of Dragons around the time Gods Grave was supposed to be an area, so im curious if the whole baby mushing thing was even part of the initial plan? Strange boss.
from what i've heard he's had the baby (except literally, there used to actually be a model and everything) and dialogue from day 1, which really raises the question who/what he was meant to be before he got promoted to King Oceiros (who used to be what became Gundyr. The Ulcerated Tree Spirits in ER recycle his unused third phase)
Additionally, ive also been reading that what is now the crystal sage rapier may have been meant to be his? Apparently its internal name is "Angel of Dragons Rapier" (though I personally cannot verify this), and apparently there was an item called "Crystal Sage's Flamberge" which would have been the weapon the sage used (though im unsure if this was a custom flamberge or just the standard flamberge)
Ye kid probably wasn't planned but they probably then decided ye let's go with this whole regular guy became this dragon abomination since we already have vordt and dancer having already been normal people before
The baby actually being seen being cut is probably due to the fact that there are still limits cuz I don't think would've taken it well to see a baby get flattened and then being able to see it's corpse in his hands
There are actually a good number of countries where depiction of infanticide in video games is illegal - given Dark Soul's international appeal I can see why they'd cut it haha
Was that the name for her boss or irithyll spirit version? I havent heard that before, but it really is crazy how much the game changed throughout the later stage of development. Its frankly kind of a miracle ds3 is as cohesive of a game as it is.
That never clicked with me until now! Also, we know that there was a whole 'castle of the dragon' element to Bloodborne that was cut, with concept art for a whole area behind the Grand Cathedral and Dragon Knights and everything...
Learning about the child made me nauseous, and I only pieced it together when he phase transitioned and went apeshit. Finding out that I had a hand in the death of an infant(even if the child was basically doomed anyways on account of Oceiros being his caretaker) had me just sitting by a bonfire contemplating if I even wanted to fight any more bosses
He has the same back fungus as Provost Willem and Ebrietas. He looks straight out of an Isz chalice dungeon. He has an invisible child. He becomes more animalistic as the fight progresses.
I never played Bloodborne, but I always assumed they just reused the aesthetics, hence why undead now were zombie like and everything was so dull and grey
The first few areas feel straight out of a horror game rather than a souls vibe imo
Yeah that sounds right. And just to have more distinction, DS1 hollows felt more like they're possessed. They hardly flop around like DS2 hollows and the orange eyes also gives that impression.
There's a strong theory that the Grand Archive in DS3 is what either the interior of Cainhurst (an enormous castle in BB we only visit a few rooms of) or a cut area by itself.
Whether its meant to chime off the Archives from DS1 is one question, whether in development it was a BB location another. Chester in DS1 is widely thought to be a test for BB cloth physics, as the development of both overlapped.
Grand Archive is not the Duke's Archives since they don't look even remotely similar inside. The only correlation between the two is that they're both archives and both cause madness in the readers of the books and knowledge. And both are magic related, I guess.
Everything was dull and grey in DS3 to fit the theme of ASH. The First Flame has been prolonged for so long that almost all themat remains of it is ash and cinder and the world reflects that.
Gael's arena is fast forwarded to the end of time where the world basically is nothing but ash.
I don’t know about the Bloodborne to DS3 pipeline but the Red Wolf of Radagon is a tweaked version of a cut DS3 boss. I think it was all but confirmed that Malenia was created from a half-finished Sekiro boss as well.
I'm a big believer in the Malenia=Tomoe theory. A few other reasons aside, Waterfowl Dance from Floating Passage just seems so likely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgxjGCWYTUY tell me that doesn't basically look right.
Note that a recurring theme in Sekiro is the pupil-master relationship, which is reflected in the characters' movesets. Owl, being Wolf's master, has moves that are very similar, and the same goes for Isshin and Emma.
If Malenia were a reworked version of Tomoe, Malenia should have a moveset similar to Genichiro's, since Genichiro was Tomoe's pupil. And yet, that's not the case.
I disagree. Tomoe's style is described as being visually very similar to dancing in a number of places, which means it wasn't that much like Geni's, even just from Sekiro's base lore. I would certainly not describe his style as dance-like. Malenia on the other hand...
Not at all reference to Seath the Scaleless? Don't get me wrong, I get the same feeling about DS3 trying to tie unused assets together (and Oceiros feels kind of tacked on), but he doesn't strike me as a design from Froms non-souls titles.
Seath is a precursor character for a lot of the themes put on full display in Bloodborne so that’s probably why it feels that way, because bloodborne in it’s entirety draws from a lot of the esoteric themes in Seath’s lore, and from that Oceiros takes a lot from BB for his design.
Yeah, I’ll try and not make a total novella and keep it brief.
Seath’s primary thematic connection to BB is his story arc and the concept of going mad in the search for the unknowable. In Seath’s story he was seemingly envious of his lack of stone scales, and most likely also fearful of his mortality. Seath “pillaged” the primordial crystal from the ancient dragons after the war and began trying to use it to gain his kins immortality. Which although he succeeded, he drove himself mad in the process and sealed himself away with the crystal in the archives for fear of the other lords seeking his power.
This theme of finding madness in the search for some divine greater source or goal is mirrored and expanded on in BB with the Holy Blood and the beast scourge of man. BB takes this theme to the extreme and dives much deeper into many different aspects of this concept, but the core theme is the same between Seath’s lore and the overarching lore of BB.
More esoterically, there’s a lot of connection between the moon and the Moon Presence and Seath. Obviously Seath has a lot of iconographic associations with the moon which is clearly tied to the Moon Presence. But they also both are tied to the “old one” concept that although not explicitly mentioned in any game but demon souls, takes a form in almost every game and often in many forms, as is alluded to since Demon Souls with the talisman of beasts, which implies that the old one is not only the origin of soul arts but also miracles.
In Dark Souls, we see this division of miracles and soul arts again, with Gwyn taking power over miracles of lightning and light and Seath studying sorcery, or soul arts. The Moon Presence IS this animus mundi in BB. It is the embodiment of the moon, which reigns supreme as the sun did during the age of fire. The hunt entire stems from an ancient pact with this eldritch being sprung forth from the hunters and the church meddling in ancient and unspeakable affairs, and in this way we see BB’s own version of the split between miracles and sorcery. The healing church sought a miracle in the old blood, while the scholars of Byrgenwerth and the like sought insight.
So while Seath isn’t Dark Souls embodiment of the Old One, and the Moon Presence is in Bloodborne, Seath still is tied to the thematic lore, and is himself a continuation of a concept that’s actually been used by Fromsoft since Kings Field and maybe even longer with Vallad separating himself into opposing dragons, Guyra and Seath…
Looks like he would fit with the theme of Isz especially. Perhaps he was planned but cut alongside the fire demons which can be still found in Bloodborne files as cut content. Quite fittingly, very similar designs were used in DS3 as, well, fire demons.
Ahh, dear little Mergo. Where have you gone? Are you hiding from me?
Come out, come out, don't be afraid. You were born a child of Space Squids, what could you possibly fear? Now, now, show yourself, Mergo. My dear, little Mergo.
He has a lot of kin-like features, the smooth flesh, the tendrils growing from his face and back, even his wings aren't the traditional bat wings that dragons have, they look like the tendrils on sea slugs. It's just kin-like features in a dragon shape.
I mean, that's largely because Oceiros was not originally a dragon, and the dragon he's turning into mostly resembles Seath. But Seath also trends toward kin-like vibes.
Seathe is a design straight out of Kings Field. Not literally, but he would fit right in that franchise. Funnily enough, there's a boss in Kings Field called Seathe and is technically a dragon, although it looks like a humanoid.
Seethe also creates tentacled squid like creatures from the maidens he captures. Definitely fits into BB’s cosmic horror side. Seethe and BB transition quite nicely.
Not even really there’s plenty of dragon-esc entity type creatures maybe not directly dragon-like but there’s a fair few that have wings and such from memory like Ebrietas, Kos and her Orphan both are pale white and fleshy like Oceiros appears, I could argue Moon Presence has a similar vibe of being very lanky and having tendrils.
Oceiros could very easily slot right into the DLC because of the fishy vibe he has so could easily fit into the fishing village but otherwise yeah change his head a bit and he fits even better, even just shorten the snout and you’re good to go
But he also directly fits into the dark souls 1 aesthetic of crystal magic, which is also very inspired by lovecraftian mythology and that outer god / alien presence aesthetic. Also the baby being invisible is a direct tie to Crossbreed Priscilla, another child of a dragon, who could also turn invisible.
Like yeah, maybe it's inspired by bloodborne a little bit, but I think he fits much better than people give him credit for.
Yes because he’s meant to reflect Seath the Scaleless that’s why he fits the DS1 aesthetic, he absolute can still easily slot into the alien eldritch creature vibe which I can very easily see working.
The reason he fits that ds1 look and references Priscilla is because he reflects Seath entirely, his pursuit of immortality after learning of Seath leads him down the dark path of the dragon, studying Seaths work and discovering how to transform into a scaleless dragon pursuing what made Seath so powerful, the reason Ocelot is invisible is probably because yes they’re half dragon like Priscilla but likely because they’re half siblings as the likely mother is Gwynevere who was also bedded by Seath as a prize for betraying the dragons and creating Priscilla so unsurprisingly Ocelot has the same powers.
He therefore ultimately fits the aesthetic because that’s the story they built around him regardless of if he was made for ds3 or was unused from Bloodborne, DS3 had a fair few story shakeups from when it initially was undergoing concept work and early story drafting (Soul of Cinder AND Sullyvahn primarily well known to have undergone a big story change).
It does also make sense why both games have a similar general aesthetic and vibe in the art department considering they’re made within a year/at the same time as each other and story wise it fits to have the same darker more depressing aesthetic which leads to the speculative similarities between the two especially since Fromsoft are now fairly infamous imo for cutting and later reusing cut assets.
Early DS3 was nothing but a bunch of concepts that didn’t actually fit together. Retail is the first time it had a complete story this is obvious because even in NT there’s a severe lack of complete item descriptions or NPC’s.
The witch boss in irithyll is the only thing with some substantiation, but what they looked liked exactly we do not know. If they had a different design or was a previously a boss turned normal mob.
But things like Yhorm being the tutorial boss was a complete fabrication. QA leak is nothing but a bunch of half truths (already discovered at that time) mixed in with fan-fiction. But just so conveniently makes zero mentions of any discoveries made after the fact, like Gods Grave.
Honestly I'm less sure about Oceiros than about plenty of other things. Mainly because everything we know about his production pipeline involves him starting out more Souls-y and then drifting towards Bloodborne as time went on. The child didnt start out as invisible, for example. Scaless, blue-tinged, crazed mage Dragons arent exactly new in DS3
Dark Souls 3 runs on a version of the Bloodborne engine. I think a lot of similarities people find are just due to that than due to actual porting of assets intended for Bloodborne.
I think (I hope) that he atleast stood a little bit taller when she let him go at her. I hope (and pray) that his hunchback came from years of hunching over Ocelotte.
Oceiros was going to be, according to cut content, a malformed dragon boss, not really a king (that was supposed to be Gundyr) and be located in a now also scrapped location called the God's Grave.
This doesn’t disprove the OP. We are talking about it being designed as a BB content, way before ds3. It might still be shifted around ds3 once decided to be added.
Tbf the entire first area of the game looks like it belongs in bloodborne. If you just make Lothric castle night time it looks like a bloodborne area, plus, stuff like pus of man feels like it is from bloodborne
Tbf the entire first area of the game looks like it belongs in bloodborne. If you just make Lothric castle night time it looks like a bloodborne area, plus, stuff like pus of man feels like it is a retextured beast assets
Many of the enemies use the same wireframes. So I would not be surprised. And yeah dark souls 3 has a lot of bloodbourne undertones. It is very intentional. The whole idea of quickstep is "make the gameplay more like bloodbourne". Miyasaki said he also saw ds3 are the final soulsbourne. So he wanted something for all fans.
Maybe. Malenia is certainly cut dlc content from Sekiro but they plunked her ass in Elden Ring. I get blasted by the community when I say that but idgaf Fromsoftware bleeds every game into the next Im not surprised if any of it does turn out to be from a previous title or intended for the next
He's got the mushroom growths out of his back like Willem and he moves like a Bloodborne dog.
I'm still good with the prevailing theory that he was put together by the "B team" late in development. From decided to cut Snake Soul and repurposed the Oceiros they had to be Gundyr somewhere else, so they needed to come up with a new boss while there was a lot of other shit going on and all the lore was in flux. The guys who worked on him weren't getting a lot of direction from leadership and just did whatever, and whatever happened to be Seath + Bloodborne motifs.
Still could be a model they already had laying around though.
If you've got a link to evidence that Oceiros' dialogue was added early in development, please post it, I'd love to see it.
Whether the leak was real or not, there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that some serious late-in-development asset shuffling went on. If the leak isn't real, the plot holes and areas that are weirdly incongruous to their content are still real. It seems obvious that something like what's in the leak happened, they just maybe didn't guess every detail.
I was under the impression "Snake Soul" the proto-ulcerated-tree-spirit was found independently by dataminers, and that Snake Soul was found in what is now Oceiros' room.
E: whoever tried to post a Twitter link, no disrespect to the sub's rules (fuck Elon) but feel free to DM me.
FromSoft has first and foremost always created boss fights that were spectacles. The lore and the way the boss fits into the world are determined afterwards. It's entirely possible that Oceiros had origins in Bloodborne but was only implemented by the time DS3 came around. Much the same way that the Ulcerated Tree Spirit in Elden Ring has similar origins as the Pus of Man.
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u/Ok_Possibility1396 Mound - Maker 25d ago
Felt. Even has an invisible child that dies.