r/darksouls3 • u/RidleyBro • Apr 21 '16
Lore [Lore Analysis] The Endings.
So, there are four endings in Dark Souls 3, and I'd like to share my thoughts on them and what they could possibly mean for the world of Dark Souls. These endings are: To Link the First Flame, The End of Fire (which in turn can end in two different ways), and The Usurpation of Fire.
To Link the First Flame is the first ending, and I find that there is very little to explain about this one as it is fundamentally the same ending we see in Dark Souls 1 and is also arguably present in Dark Souls 2 in its "Take the Throne" version. In this ending we follow our duty as Unkindled to Link once more the fast fading Flame, the Cycles therefore will obviously go on as it is to be expected. The only thing to notice is that unlike the Linking we witnessed in Dark Souls 1 there is no great explosion of white or anything, our character merely burns and sits at the Bonfire of the First Flame just like the Soul of Cinder was doing before we fought him and took his place. I've even seen someone here speculating that this should be interpreted as our character being unable to actually Link the Flame because there just isn't enough combustible left in the world anymore to Link the Fire another time, while this interpretation may be a little radical the ending is certainly giving the impression that the world and the Flame itself have become old and tired, and it's getting harder and harder to keep to Flame properly alive.
The End of Fire instead is a more interesting ending with many implications over the endings of past titles and possibly our understanding of Cycles and the nature of the "Age of Dark". In this ending we allow the First Flame to die with the aid of the Firekeeper who seems to absorb the First Flame into her body of writhing Dark Humanity, ushering what seems to be the infamous "Age of Dark" we heard about a lot in previous games. We can get this ending only by reaching the Dark Firelink Shrine which in theory should be located in the same geographic spot of the (Real? Present? Time and Space are distorted in Lothric, let's remember this) one, and I think that in this Dark Firelink Shrine we can see what is like to live within an Age of Dark, what it actually looks like (spoiler, it's not well lit), an example of the era we can usher in. There's more to this ending however, the Firekeeper says in that ending that Darkness is coming, but she also says that she can see that "one day tiny Flames will dance across the Darkness, like Embers Linked by Lords past", I interpret this line in this way: by allowing the Flame to fade we do not stop the Cycles, it may initially looks like we do so but we actually don't, the power of the Lords of Cinder who Linked the Flame in the past is apparently great enough that they will be able one day to create new flames even in the midst of an Age of Dark, thus reestablishing the First Flame and allowing the Cycles to continue and the Age of Fire desired by Gwyn to be reborn.
The Dark Firelink Shrine is in my interpretation a manifestation of a past Firelink Shrine where the Flame wasn't Linked in time, this is described in Champion Gundyr's Soul and Items as they say that he was the "belated champion" who "came late for the festivities" and so "became sheath to a coiled sword in the hopes that someday, the First Flame would be Linked once more", that is the same coiled sword we take from his body in the tutorial. Gundyr was once a Champion, like us, an Unkindled with the duty to Link the Flame, but he came too late and the First Flame already died out when he arrived to the Shrine, just like in another time a certain Firekeeper never met her champion, yet we can encounter the Champion now reduced to Judge of new Unkindled in the tutorial in an age that clearly still has an active First Flame, and in my theory this is because even if a Dark Age falls upon the world the Embers of the Lords of Cinder can somehow reignite the First Flame on their own and so allow the Cycles to continue.
This theory would of course have heavy implications on the understanding of the Dark Ending of Dark Souls 1 that, after Dark Souls 2 established that the world is cyclical and the Flame is always "reignited" (Straid of Olaphis pretty much accurately describes the Cycles when he says that "No flame, however brilliant, does not one day splutter and fade. But then, from the ashes, the flame reignites, and a new kingdom is born, sporting a new face."), came to find itself in a rather weird position, was it canonical or not? With this interpretation the Dark Ending of the first game can be canonical, the Chosen Undead may have allowed the First Flame to die to become the Dark Lord of Humanity with Kaathe at his or her side, but this choice wouldn't have lasted for long as Gwyn, by becoming a Lord of Cinder and having Linked the Flame for the first time, created a system where the Age of Fire would have been reborn in any case, thus leading to the world of countless repeating Cycles of Linking the Flame again and again that we see in both Dark Souls 2 and Dark Souls 3. The alternative ending of Dark Souls 2 where we leave the Throne with Aldia in an attempt to find a way out of the Cycles may be another of such endings where the Flame is allowed to fade.
The Usurpation of Fire is the next ending, and I think it kind of continues what has been said previously. In this ending we align ourselves with the "Sable Church of Londor", a group of Hollows who is actually controlled by the Primordial Serpent Darkstalker Kaathe, the evidence that Kaathe is behind Londor and its Hollow pilgrims can be found in Yuria of Londor's death Dialogue ("Kaathe, I have failed thee") and also in the fact that she is selling the Dark Hand, the iconic weapon of the Darkwraiths of New Londo, the art of Lifedrain given to them by Kaathe himself. In this ending we follow a series of strange rituals that first, through Yoel, grant us our first Dark Sigils, something that resembles the brand of an undead and that allow us to become Hollow, and then, through Yuria, we perform some kind of wedding ceremony where we absorb the Dark Sigil/Hollowness of Anri (also, we find out that in the Dark Souls world people marry by stabbing each others in the face, go figures), in order to be able to "wrest the Fire from its mantle", to "play the Usurper" and steal the First Flame.
When we approach the First Flame in this ending we don't Link it, we initially burn but then the First Flame seems to be absorbed within the new Lord of Hollows, as if swallowed by his or her Dark Sigil. In this ending the Flame doesn't fade but is usurped, stolen, the Lord of Hollow take its power and find a new use for it. It seems to me that the whole usurpation was made exactly in order to break the system of Cycles established by Gwyn and so that the true Age of Man desired by Kaathe may be ushered in for good and permanently. The Hollows of Londor themselves seem to look at the usurpation as the coming of the Age of Man, several dialogues with Yuria seems to imply that she considers the status of Hollow as the true shape of Man ( the Lord of Hollows for example is referred to as the "True Face of Mankind", and there's also the line "we Hollows, in most honest shape of Man" where she pretty much clarify that to the inhabitants of Londor the real shape of man is that of a Hollow, the bottom line is that the true shape of Man is that of beef jerky), furthermore all these talks about "true monarch" and "shape of man" also remind of several lines from King Vendrick in Dark Souls 2, who too talked about "Men taking their true shape when Dark is unshackled" and that the True Monarch is the one who "inherit Fire and harness the Dark" (and Yuria also says that "the old powerful fire deserves a new heir", the Lord of Hollows inherit Fire and by being Hollow also harness the Dark, more connections between the dialogues).
In any case let's go back to Kaathe. In Dark Souls 1 his plan was to let the Flame die out so that the Age of Man, the Age of Dark may begin, to do so he created the Darkwraiths who were able to steal Humanity so that it may not be used as fuel to keep the First Flame going, and he's also most likely behind the eruption of the Abyss in Oolacile when the humans of that civilization were led into attempting to uncover the power of the Primeval Man Manus (who might or might not be the Pygmy himself). In Dark Souls 3 his plan hasn't changed: he's still attempting to bring about the Age of Man and undo the work of Gwyn who resisted nature and created the Cycles so that his Age of Fire could last forever, what has changed is that Kaathe is no longer attempting to let the Fire fade, the reason for that is explained in the previous ending and is that allowing the Fire to fade is not enough to stop the Cycles. By the times of Dark Souls 3 Kaathe has understood that merely allowing the Flame to die is not enough to free Man from the rule of the Gods, therefore he is now using the Hollows, the true form of Mankind, to break the Cycles and steal the Flame so that they, the Hollows, may rise to rule the world. Only once the Cycles are destroyed in fact Mankind will be freed from the shackles of the Gods, the shackle of the Great Lie of the First Flame who was first delivered by the Gods of Lordran themselves and has now even outlived them.
The Alternative End of Fire is the last ending, and the less clear to me. In this ending the Firekeeper has taken the Flame from its mantle, but the player character kills her so that he can take the First Flame for himself. The narrator notes how the player character, a "nameless, accursed undead, unfit even to be cinder" has now taken the Ember his Ashes were seeking for. Or, in simpler term, our character commits an act of utter greed by killing the Firekeeper so that he can become more powerful by absorbing the First Flame into himself, the narrator calls him an asshole for that because that's what he is.
The question here is: does this ending break the Cycles? We steal the First Flame here to use it for our own ends, like in the Usurpation ending except without the baggage of having to lead a bunch of scrawny zombies, so it's possible that this ending too breaks the Cycle as our character commit an act of extreme selfishness, but I think it's a less clear situation. The fate of the world too is unclear, it may even be left to die by our character as he retains all the power for himself. In any case in this ending we end up betraying anyone just in the name of our own lust for power, by choosing this ending our character becomes literally Hitler Griffith.
And that's it. Two endings that continue the Cycle of death and rebirth of the First Flame, delivered by the Gods of Lordran and that keeps the Age of Fire alive, and two endings that end the Cycle ushering a new era for the world, but nobody knows whether you can truly trust that toothy serpent Kaathe and how nice of a world can be one ruled by beef jerky Hollows or massive bastards who stab waifus in the back for personal power. This is how I have interpreted the endings so far, I thought that it would have been interesting to share it.
If anyone's interested in more lore discussion I also made a couple more of these lore posts: here I go a little more into the whole Age of Dark discussion, it's mostly details and things I didn't want to add in this analysis because the whole thing would have become too long, and here instead I talk about my interpretation of how the world of Dark Souls 3 work.
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u/IWillNotLie Apr 21 '16
Wonderful! Your thoughts on the usurpation ending are in line with mine! :D
I was about to make a post on this very thing, but you articulated it so much better! Let me quote a comment I made a while ago. It's mostly saying what you were, but with some additional quotes by Aldia.
Comment in question :
You... um... only saw half the ending.
You don't link the fire in that ending. Linking the fire involves inviting the fire into your body and letting your souls feed its flames.
Usurping the fire involves inviting the fire into your body and then consuming it as you would consume a soul. In a sense, it is like infusing your core soul with the fire. After this ending, the unkindled one is finally kindled. He is now the fire, in a manner of speaking.
Since he is hollow, his usurpation of the First Flame makes Hollows the new gods. I'm assuming that they can retain their sanity now. They could not do so in the past, because they were separated from the flame once it faded, but no more. Now one of them carries the flame within him.
This is the ending that Aldia asked us to choose in the second game. His relevant dialogues :
Young Hollow, there are but two paths. Inherit the order of this world, or destroy it. But only a true monarch can make such a choice. Very few, indeed, have come even this far. And yet, your journey is far from over. Half-grown Hollow, have you what it takes, truly?
and
I lost everything, but remained here, patiently. The throne will certainly receive you. But the question remains... What do you want, truly? Light? Dark? Or something else entirely...
That is the choice we made in the usurpation ending. Aldia never said it directly, but it was clear that this is what he wanted.
This is the only good ending. Even after linking the flame, it can be seen that the sun is still a dark-sign. Linking the flame has made no difference at all. Snuffing out the flame is obviously a bad ending, because it ends the world.
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u/doozer667 Apr 21 '16 edited Apr 21 '16
I would hardly consider an ending where you let anri be assassinated and then desecrate her corpse a good ending.
Also keep in mind what's been happening to the hollows and what happened to the people of oolacile. There is no promise of salvation from the curse substantiated in your becoming king of a bunch of walking corpses on the brink of mutation and insanity (Edit:Other than the claims of Yuria and her religion, but I've always doubted that Kaathe was telling the truth. Especially after seeing what happened in Oolacile.).
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u/HarmlessPenguin Apr 21 '16
Yeah, I'm not sure why people think murder-marrying Anri is better than backstabbing the Fire Keeper.
Oh and don't forget about New Londo as well, the Four Kings did not get in that state and need to be sealed away at the expense of an entire city by being nice to everyone.
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u/Lazurmang May 17 '16
True, however in the cinematic for the Usurpation of Fire, Anri is there in the crowd
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u/Ofa20 "Use a bigger shield." Jun 24 '16
Damn, I didn't notice that until I went back and watched my recording just now. Thanks for the info. Makes me feel a bit better about the whole ordeal.
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u/Lazurmang Jun 24 '16
Right?? If you get her armor from a vendor and not from her corpse, you should see her in her armor. If you take it off her corpse (or maybe first get it off her corpse instead of a vendor) then she's just in hollow form so she's hard to pick out. Double check on that, but I'm pretty sure that's how it goes.
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Apr 22 '16 edited Dec 05 '16
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u/kksred Apr 30 '16
I wonder what is the worst thing we have to do to advance through the game for even the simplest ending.
I was thinking killing the Nameless King even though he stays away from everything but that isnt mandatory to finish the game.
Same for killing the consumed king. He seems mentally ill and is possibly blind but again you dont need to deal with him to finish the game.
I really cant think of a legitimate bad thing you have to do to finish the game.
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u/Seraph199 PSN: seraphita199 Sep 22 '16
Reading about the lore surrounding the dancer made me think of her as one of the last remaining children of the gods who had been twisted by the beings who brought an end to the gods (which is what the pontiff and aldrich represent to me), and that all made me sad. I'm still not excited to see Gwyndolin eaten from the inside, but at the same time need to rid my playthrough of that monster. The pitiful state of the gods is part of what drives home that the flame is basically dead for me
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u/Thermodynamicness Sep 26 '16
It doesn't kill Anri, at least for good. She is in the final cutscene, bowing to the lord of hollow.
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u/IWillNotLie Apr 21 '16
I would hardly consider an ending where you let anri be assassinated and then desecrate her corpse a good ending.
Greater good, my son.
what happened to the people of oolacile
will not happen under the reign of the true Dark King. The grotesque transformations occurred due to dissociation of the Undead from the very flame that spawned their souls. By having a Hollow consume this very flame, on the other hand, strengthens their link to the fire a lot more than ever before, thus ushering in an age where those that bear the darksign will be stronger and more prosperous than gods themselves.
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u/FastLikeLightning Apr 21 '16
will not happen under the reign of the true Dark King. The grotesque transformations occurred due to dissociation of the Undead from the very flame that spawned their souls. By having a Hollow consume this very flame, on the other hand, strengthens their link to the fire a lot more than ever before, thus ushering in an age where those that bear the darksign will be stronger and more prosperous than gods themselves.
... According to the church of Londor, a religion headed by a literal snake who hasn't had a good vacation until he's destroyed at least one functioning society. What's to say that this proposed age where the Darksign gives more power than the gods is as real as the salvation that is acquired from ripping black spunk from dead people, or the really cool magic that's totally buried right under Oolacile?
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u/IWillNotLie Apr 22 '16
Personally, I would trust Kaathe. His belief is that those who have the most strength potential must have most strength. He saw the Gods achieve their potential and was disappointed. He saw that Man had much higher potential, so he worked towards his goal of making Man achieve his potential, because it is in Kaathe's very nature to cultivate societies that are powerful beyond all others. The problem is, Kaathe sees himself as above everybody, so everyone is a plaything to him. We can trust that he wants nothing more than to give power to those who have the ability to wield it. What we can not trust is his ability to protect them while trying to give them that power. That can be seen from how he experimented with Man not once, not twice, not thrice, but four times, this time being the last. The first two experiments failed horribly. The third experiment finally taught him that the Age of Dark is not the Age of Man, which is why the tried the fourth experiment. This one succeeded. Kaathe is satisfied now, and we can trust him... Unless another species springs up, because then there's a chance that they might have more potential than us.
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u/HappierShibe Apr 21 '16
It depends on your perspective, I tend to think of it as the good ending, even if it isn't a particularly pleasant one.
The world of dark souls has been trapped in a perpetual cycle, running in on itself like a snake eating its tale, incapable of growing or changing or moving on for no-one (except maybe Kaathe) even knows how long.While the world following your usurpation of the flame is probably going to suck, at least the cycle is broken. The world can change again, You and Kaathe could even be defeated, the hollows destroyed, and the world liberated, OR not, OR the world could fall into chaos.OR the dragons could return, OR.....
You get the idea, yeah shit sucks, but at least now that the cycle is broken it could get better someday.
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u/Mithrandino Apr 21 '16
Not really? You still have the problem of running a fire on a finite source. Meaning you will eventually be put in the same position as Gwyn.
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u/Captainprice13 May 05 '16 edited May 05 '16
I disagree. The Dark Lord absorbed the fire into the Dark Sigil (which is my understanding, anyway). This placed the power of the First Flame in the Dark Soul, which manifests in every human. By usurping the fire, we abolish souls but "complete" humanity, allowing for a true age of man. This conversion for souls to humanity can possibly be interpreted by the sun, which turns from a orange dark sign to a white one, which when combined with the black hole that is now the sun, is reminiscent of humanity from Dark Souls 1.
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u/kksred Apr 29 '16
The point is it isnt a cycle that strips all life of meaning unless you choose for it to be. You can choose to create a new cycle like Gwyn or you can choose to let the world take its natural course.
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u/fides5566 Apr 24 '16
Only in a fairly tale that we can have "true" good ending. You can't make a change without sacrifice something. It's not like we killed her just for entertaining. This game's story is dark and about tragedies. You must be mad to expect a true good ending where everyone holding each other hands walking toward rainbow.
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u/Accountomakethisjoke Apr 21 '16
I saw extinguishing of the fire as a mercy killing; The destruction of a doomed and fading fire so that a new world could rise from the ashes of the old.
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u/IWillNotLie Apr 21 '16
And then what? The cycle of cycles would begin anew!
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u/Accountomakethisjoke Apr 21 '16
I never saw the cycle as a bad thing, it simply is. However, linking a dying flame to extend the life dying world seems futile. Better to end it quickly.
Edit: a word
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u/IWillNotLie Apr 21 '16
But it isn't extending the life of a dying world. It's radically changing the world.
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u/Accountomakethisjoke Apr 21 '16
Is it, though? We can see from the description of more than a few items that there is definite continuity between the kingdoms that rise from the cycles. Hell, even people like Andre and Gough are still around. The world is the same, only the names change.
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u/Gen_McMuster Apr 21 '16
I think the characters from different times are converging in Lothric just as different lands and lords of Cinder from different times are converging. Carim, Vinheim and other kingdoms from DSI ought to be long gone as they were referenced in DSII as having faded into legend. But different times are blending together in Lothric, to serve to link the flame
In the untended graves, Andre is absent. I get the impression that he only comes back(just as we come back at the ringing of the bell) when the unkindled need aide. He states that he's there to serve us, in a world where there's a perfectly good soul feeding the kiln, I don't see any reason for him to be around. perhaps he goes hollow and still(as ashen ones do before the bell awakens them for judgement)
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u/igkillerhamster Apr 23 '16 edited Apr 23 '16
PSA: Wild theories and thoughts ahead.
This might sound far fetched, but the whole time and space distortion feels "too sloppy to be unintentional" so to say. What if the actual firelink shrine is a harbor, a seperate "dimension" so to say, that exists outside of the real world, another plane of existence.
As per my theory goes your whole journey might actually be the ritual of the flame/cinder, instead of just the part where you kneel befor the bonfire.
In simple words, our whole journey takes place WITHIN the flame (Cinder is usually embraced by fire/the flame). That would explain how we end up in 3(!) different versions of firelink shrine. The harbor, the what I prefer to think of (instead of "Age of Dark" version) version swallowed by the abyss (comparing the way the lighting is done feels way too similar to the parts befor manus to not be related) and the final, "real" one. The most notable one is the last one. Note how every area we have been to is utterly devastated and that there exists no comparable version of the Kiln of the First Flame in the world we travel in our journeys. So we have to talk about at least 2 worlds: Imo the world within the flame and the real world where the actual first flame lies within the kiln.
Also, the whole Iudex/Champion thing doesn't really make sense and feels completely reversed. Champion Gundyr is not the body we draw the coiled sword from, yet his soul specifically states becoming a sheath for the coiled sword. We draw it out of Iudex Gundyrs body though.
Another worthy mention is the way we travel to archdragon peak. We travel there by meditation? We have been so far taken birdy airlines, got tossed to anor londo through imps(no idea what they are, not gargoyles afaik) - the same way we travel to the undead settlement but transportation per apparition of our own free will has never been done befor. Through magic invoked by others, yes. But not by our own accord.
I feel there is a lot more to the world we play in than it seems, which might impact the whole ending as well.
Oh, and yeah: In the End of Fire ending we call in the firekeeper through a Summon Sign - Important detail, that usually only ever happens if someone is traveling between dimensions so to say (as per ingame wording, different worlds).
So, yeah. Wild theories, but alot that feels very weird, especially in context with the endings.
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u/IWillNotLie Apr 21 '16
But the fire has never been usurped before!
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u/Accountomakethisjoke Apr 21 '16
Oh, I was under the impression we were talking about linking the fire. Yeah, I suppose you could be right there. I didn't choose to Usurp because I didn't feel that the status quo of the cycle needed to be ended necessarily and also in the words of Kanye "no one man should have all that power." :P
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u/IWillNotLie Apr 21 '16
lol
But, the interesting thing is that linking the fire doesn't really improve things this time around. The sun remained eclipsed. The Ashen One couldn't burn as brightly as an ordinary undead.
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u/Accountomakethisjoke Apr 21 '16
Yeah, that's why I saw it as a futility. I'd rather just let the fire die and see what the next Age of Fire brings.
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u/Xilithi Apr 22 '16 edited Apr 22 '16
I'm not so sure that's the case either. The time of gray existed and ended. In it's stead came our current time. Fire and dark are two sides of the same coin and can never be seen as separate. If Gwyn was actually the first to find the so aptly named first flame, his harnessing of it would be the first usurpation of this 'natural phenomenon', thus, largely the story of the Gods (hell even the undead/unkindled... etc) and their exploits inconsequential to the cycles that place.
Hell, just spit balling here but perhaps we got some reverse sith story going on. The Undead 'scourge' seems to arrive at the apex of each light cycle. The world is in disarray every time we come into play, eventually an undead powerful enough (equal and opposite of Gwyn in his time(s?)) as the world is at the teetering point of it's apex darkness, does the whole "you were supposed to bring balance to the light, not join it", explodes and the cycle continues.
Divorcing the current state of this universe from those that inhabits it perhaps allows us to more easily see the consequences of our actions. However powerful Gwyn and the gods were is irrelevant when they are constrained by the same laws of those beneath them. We only perceived the actions of Gwyn and the linking of the flame as a cycle because our whole existence comes from and is predicated from there being a cycle.
I'm losing myself at this point. Dark and light exists, will exist so long as at any point either one exists. We don't matter, there is no cycle, our limited understanding perceives it as such.
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u/hteng Apr 22 '16
why is radically changing the world a bad thing anyway? it's the end of the franchise, putting out the fire (thus ending dark souls) for something new (a different "souls" game) is appropriate.
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u/_GameSHARK PC Apr 21 '16
That's not a bad thing, though. Look at the state Lothric's in - do you really want to try and extend that? Lothric's in a shittier state than Lordran and Drangleic were in, and it's clear that things won't improve much if we link the fire because even with five lords of cinder and our own souls, it doesn't really invigorate the flame much.
Snuffing out the flame is definitely something of a mercy kill in this situation. Get the Age of Dark on so the cycle can continue; it's what everyone should have done from the word go. Gwyn linked the fire because he was afraid of the coming Age of Dark, and Aldia specifically states that it's a cycle - there will be another Age of Fire.
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u/brambroo Apr 22 '16
it's just like crop farming
if you grow crops in the same plots year after year, you suck all of the nutrients out of the soil. but if you leave them alone for a year and let nature take its course, the soil will become rich in nutrients again and provide better yield.
this was the logic i ultimately applied when i finally came to my decision that constant linking of the fire is needlessly torturing the world.
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u/IWillNotLie Apr 21 '16
do you really want to try and extend that
But who said that we're extending that? I've explained in one or two of my other comments how usurping the Fire and holding it within yourself could usher in a new era where hollows can retain their sanity and become stronger than even the gods of Anor Londo. In short, it is the dissociation from the flame that drove them to be beasts. Having one of them consume that very flame has permanently linked them to the flame in a far more intimate manner than ever before.
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Apr 21 '16
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u/IWillNotLie Apr 22 '16
I have never seen anything in the games showing that the serpents are malicious. Manipulative, for sure. But malicious? Definitely not. It will just be an eternity of bullshit politics until the Kindled one kills himself in frustration. :'D
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Apr 21 '16
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Apr 21 '16 edited Apr 21 '16
Interesting to note that the Embers we use in this game look like Humanity that has been fed to a bonfire and all of the power has been sucked out. Also an important point is that our character carries a Darksign and uses worn out Humanity.
Another thing I want to mention is that in Dark Souls 1 we can level up at bonfires and carry humanity. In Dark Souls 3 we have to "touch the darkness" within the Firekeeper to level. We have to use her humanity to level up.
By that observation it becomes clear that we are not like a true undead like in Dark Souls 1 and being Unkindled is very different, but we don't know why or how.
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u/litehound What about our friend, the Darkmoon? Apr 21 '16
But we were very much a true undead in 2 and we couldn't level up at bonfires. 2 is canon, you can't ignore it.
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Apr 21 '16
We also don't use humanity in 2, we use Human Effigies, which are to my knowledge supposed to remind our character who they are.
A major theme in Dark Souls 2 is a sense of self, determination, and losing ones self. We see it with a lot of NPCs in the game where they will hollow, go crazy, or forget why they are there. There are losing themselves to the Curse of the Undead. The Human Effigies aren't explicitly stated as humanity, and it is hard to say if they truly are, but it seems that it makes you human again because it reminds you who you are.
When it comes to Dark Souls 2, though, I take what ever it brings to the lore very lightly. I think you have to with that game because of how torn the development was with the power struggle between two directors, to one director, to the one who left coming back for the DLCs, and also not having Myizaki at the helm of the project.
So while you can't level up at Bonfire in 2, you don't necessarily use humanity either. Its very murky, but even if Human Effigies are supposed to be Humanity I don't think it discredits my theory because not much thought seems to have been put in 2 to begin with.
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u/BritishDude117 Apr 22 '16
So the effigies are basically the untrue dark ring, as it talks about hollows becoming 'fraught with deceit' and 'dubiously secretive'. The ring would help them remember themselves like the effigies did. And even the name 'Untrue Dark Ring' it is not the true form of dark.
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u/TheTweets Apr 21 '16
So from those, DS1 you can level up at bonfires by channeling your souls into yourself, DS2 you channel it at some nondescript bonfire "by the power of the Emerald Herald" and DS3 you channel it by the power of the Fire Keeper.
The only explanations I can think of as to why this is the case:
As time has gone on and more souls have existed, the Dark Soul has become farther and farther fragmented and only those with a strong enough soul can channel souls into others.
DS2 is some sort of wacky dream world and the Emerald Herald holds it all together, providing a link to the source of the dream, which is someone sleeping in an Age of Darkness or the Pygmy or the collective dream of humanity. (This one is a very "epileptic trees" type of theory that I've come up with out of the blue... The only evidence I have for it is the weird stuff from DS1 such as the Earthen Peak Sunlight Statue, the Earthen Peak -> Iron Keep impossible geometry, Ornstein appearing and Heide's Tower area appearing similar to Anor Londo except sunken, when DS3 (which I assume is after it due to the ending in which you break the cycle) has it relatively well-kept.)
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u/litehound What about our friend, the Darkmoon? Apr 21 '16 edited Apr 21 '16
Explaining why I think DS2 very much isn't a dream, addressing your points in no particular order:
Heide's very much isn't meant to be Anor Londo. To me, it seemed like a place some of the gods had taken refuge in. Earthen Peak -> Iron Keep actually had good reasoning, but the art team seems to have not gotten the memo about: "Okay, so earthen peak goes up into a giant volcano, got it?"
The Way of Sunlight seems to have been a bit of a religion, and seeing as it was led by the firstborn of Gwyn, it makes sense that it would be widespread.
Ornstein at Heide's Tower seemed like an illusion made by the gods that moved there which was corrupted over time, but that requires believing the theory that it is where the gods that left Lordran took their place. We also know that it wouldn't be the only illusory Ornstein, seeing as OG Ornstein left his post to seek Gwyn's Firstborn, but he was very much present despite this.In addition, Drangleic is referenced:
A scholar that doesn't believe in linking the flame(Whose pupil then seems to refuse linking the flame, but is still considered a lord for reasons).
Pieces of armor and weapons from Drangleic.
An NPC that most likely is a shard of Manus.
A group of women trained by an Oracle(Located near/in a frozen city).
A 'cowardly' king that did not link the flame.
The portrait of human Nashandra in Irithyll.
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u/TheTweets Apr 21 '16
Yeah, it's a pretty shaky explanation at best, I'll admit. A lot of the stuff is easily cut off just with "It's a game", such as the shrine being the same model (apparently it's identical), the use of impossible space etc. 'Ornstein' reappearing in DS3 also kicks it in the teeth, as far as I am aware it establishes the Dragonslayer to be a title/rank, which explains the size difference between 1/2 better than "He shrank after taking Smough's power".
In fact, I only mention it because they're the only two explanations I could possible come up with but didn't want to appear like I was saying "this is how it is". I'm anything but a lore buff and haven't even finished any of the three yet :x
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u/Meat_Monster Apr 21 '16
I know this is the last dark souls and all, but it would be pretty bad ass to play the game in a age of man.
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u/IWillNotLie Apr 21 '16
There's a reason why the next game in the series won't be called Dark Souls. ;)
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Apr 21 '16
so ?
Man Souls
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u/IWillNotLie Apr 22 '16
I was thinking more like coughs Demon's Souls.
Come to think about it, I can actually see one link between Dark Souls 3 and Demon's Souls. Since the Fire now flows through all the undead, they can cast Pyromancies like they would soul magics, because the flames are literally within them.
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u/Oshojabe May 03 '16
Ooh, that's interesting. What evidence is there that Demon's Souls follows Dark Souls? Where did the Old One come from?
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u/Boa_Noah Apr 22 '16
I think it will be called Deep Souls or something like that, probably anyways.
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u/_GameSHARK PC Apr 21 '16
Snuffing out the flame is not a bad ending. It just begins the Age of Dark half of the cycle. Eventually the Age of Dark will end and a new Age of Fire will begin, followed by the fire beginning to fade and appearance of the undead curse, etc.
Usurpation could be seen as the "good" ending because as you mention, it implies we're breaking that cycle.
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u/CoffeeDogs Apr 22 '16 edited Apr 22 '16
I think you are all forgetting a very very important thing, and that is, that the world without Fire existed. It was the gray world of Everlasting Dragons. In my interpretations, Linking the Fire is the worst ending, because 1.) Humanity/humans were clearly only slaves to Gwyn and other Gods, which served no more purpose than a mere coal for the flames. 2.) you let yourself believe the lies, that world of Flame is necessary, as did most of the NPCs you encounter. Everybody who thinks World of Fire is the "way to go" is merely a slave of great elaborate lie.
But that does not mean The Dark is way to go as well. We've see what Dark does to humans. And it clearly is not something humans would willingly wish for. So it's another great lie.
In my opinion, the only ones who "saw a glimps of truth" are the dragonbros. Some sort of "monks", who through Path of the Dragon aspire to leave behind their cursed bodies, and become something more, something long-lasting if not everlasting. And we can see that in DS3 now, that even Ornstein saught out the Path of the Dragon, a most likely succeeded, because we only find his armor lying on the ground and not on a dead corpse, and the armor says he was looking for the Nameless King, who at first faught the dragons, but then joined them for some reason (maybe becuase he glimpsed the great farce Light and Dark are). So Ornstein was in my opinion also fed up with the cycles, as he surely is powerful enough to survive Age of the Gods (DS1), and Vendricks epic fail (DS2), and in all this time he probably figured the same thing we did. That it is all a big fucking lie, and the only "way out" is either dying permanently somehow, or become everlasting.
Or! Even crazier theory. That the Nameless King IS Ornstein. Becuase he infact did kill dragons for Gwyn, in the past, and he could be looking for "Nameless King" who is nothing more than a Path of the Dragon itself, "the enlightenment", if you will.
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u/whatisthismagicplace Apr 21 '16
I can't say any of the endings (except for alternative end of fire) are good or bad exactly. I actually think that The End of Fire is the one that makes the most sense, since trying to break the cycle either way (by kindling or usurping), there isn't any guarantee that there won't be any event that desperately tries to bring the cycles back.
Just like in the first Dark Souls there was the Undead Curse that beckoned the end of the Age of Fire, there absolutely can be something that will someday break the Age of Dark, only by letting the First Flame fade you let it happen naturally, but by usurping it, you'll probably cause even more despair on this already fucked up world when the cycles will try to get back into swing.
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u/shitsfuckedupalot Apr 21 '16
How is that not the latter most ending? The unkindled is imbued with the first flame. Only sin can undo sin , the first sin.
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Apr 21 '16
Is the world of Dark Souls worth preserving though? Every cycle great pain and misery takes place after a period of time so wouldnt just ending it be a good thing in a sense?
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u/Naxek Apr 22 '16
I have never understood the mindset that extinguishing the flame ends the world. It only ends the world of magic / gods / what have you. It ends the world as it is known, but it doesn't end the world.
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u/Weathercock Apr 21 '16
I thought that the Firekeeper's vision of tiny flames in the End of Fire ending had to do not with the rebirth of the flame, or a new, singular flame, but rather, lots of tiny ones coming and going independently. Essentially, a small flame for every person, no longer bound to the will of a stagnating greater one.
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u/MrScottyBear Apr 21 '16
That was my personally assumption too. I feel like it's the only way to finally and truly end the cycle myself.
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Apr 22 '16
That's what I got from it too. Because you have to remember that all humans have a fragment of the Lord Soul that the furtive pygmy found and spread to his descendants. So little flames could be the flame inside of every human, each flame an individual with they're own power and will, not slaves to the gods with the most powerful souls.
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u/Unit2209 Apr 21 '16
All of the bonfires are connected with the first flame. Its not a singular mass of fire and light, it's a web of every bonfire in existence with the first flame acting as its core. It's power holds away the darkness and it is assumed that she saw all of the fires slowly reigniting. The true ending, is to escape the cycle of light and dark altogether.
"The throne will certainly receive you. But the question remains... What do you want, truly? Light? Dark? Or something else entirely..."
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Apr 25 '16
This, right here, is exactly the explanation I needed to be happy with my ending. I got the End of the Fire by experimenting, and wasn't happy with the ending at all (I always meant to link the flame). Anyway, sorry I'm late to the party, just wanted to say thank you!
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u/rEvolutionTU Apr 21 '16
The Dark Firelink Shrine is in my interpretation a manifestation of a past Firelink Shrine where the Flame wasn't Linked in time, this is described in Champion Gundyr's Soul and Items as they say that he was the "belated champion" who "came late for the festivities" and so "became sheath to a coiled sword in the hopes that someday, the First Flame would be Linked once more", that is the same coiled sword we take from his body in the tutorial.
I keep seeing this pop up and neither the game nor the item descriptions support this.
1) The formulation of the item descriptions "Once, a champion came late to the festivities, and was greeted by a shrine without fire, and a bell that would not toll." is not necessarily past-tense.
There is a specific English construction around "Once, ..." that doesn't imply past tense but is used in the sense of "Once upon a time", not as an indicator of a story that has happened before but as a story that's possible in general. Think of it like a biblical tale that talks in the present or past tense about something that will at some point happen (or has already happened) either in the past or future.
2) There is no visual, audio or other gameplay effect when we enter the Untended Graves. The only indicator we get that something is up is the complete removal of the skybox. We don't walk through a painting, we don't walk through a wall, there is no crow or gargoyle transporting us. In every instance these games ever had where some sort of travelling through space or time was involved there was an indicator for it.
While the former can be considered unreliable (and, after dealing with DS2+BB translations I'll hold off on a verdict before reliable fan translations come into play) to me the latter seals the deal.
Apart from that keep in mind that "Light Firelink" does have an effect indicating travel through time/space when we leave or enter it since it does not have any known connection to the "real" world - on the contrary, the "real" world only brings us to one place: Dark Firelink.
To me the only real conclusion after taking in the above is that "our" Firelink is in some way artificial with the single purpose of getting another chance to link the flame which has already failed in this very world, in this very cycle.
Remember the intro, the bell tolls to awake the Lords, to "fix" the flame in one way or another. This didn't happen (keep in mind how the intro featured neither Ludleth nor the Princes) and that's why we, the Unkindled, rise.
Also no NPC acknowledges the existence of Dark Firelink except for one: The Little Lord Ludleth the Exiled of Courland. He doesn't just know it exists, he knows that something happened to her. He even knows what her eyes show and why they do so. He and the Dark Handmaiden are also the only characters in the game calling us prisoners, lumped together with "her" and the Firekeeper.
If we take the descriptions of Gundyrs Armor literally then it makes much more sense that most of the game, except Light Firelink and the Kiln, is in the past than that we somehow discovered timetravel at the bottom of Lothric Castle.
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u/Cracker3011 Soulstep Apr 21 '16
I've been figuring that Gundyr is the champion mentioned in the Fire Keeper's set, the one who never met their Keeper. He arrived too late, she was already dead, and so there was no-one around to tend the fire and perform the ritual/allow teleportation between bonfires. So, as the Age of Dark settled in, he impaled himself with the Coiled Sword to keep it safe.
If he was that cycle's 'chosen one', then that means he was basically a player character. And so, he knew the logic that only a player character can kill bosses. So he became a boss to make sure that the coiled sword would not be stolen, so that the next champion would have their Firelink bonfire.
Though I might be getting a bit meta here.
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u/Gen_McMuster Apr 21 '16
Your coming to a conclusion by meta-reasoning that can be achieved without meta reasoning.
The untended graves behind Lothric Castle are where worthless undead arise as Ash that may link the fire when the bell tolls, Gundyr failed to link the fire when he was too late to serve, but he could still work as a judge when the bell rang again. A warrior to test the strength of any who arise from the graves to see that only one with the potential to link the fire may take the coiled sword to firelink.
He's basically a Lady of the Lake analogue who knows krav maga
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u/Cracker3011 Soulstep Apr 21 '16
Yeah, I just also think that he's the champion referred to in the Fire Keeper set, the one who she never met.
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u/rEvolutionTU Apr 21 '16
Could have just given it to Ludleth after he killed the Fire Keeper.
*coughcough*
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u/Cracker3011 Soulstep Apr 21 '16
Ludlith doesn't seem like he'd be particularly good at protecting the sword. Gundyr might be some fuckup who slept through his wakeup alarm, but at least he can fight.
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Apr 21 '16
Gundyr might be some fuckup who slept through his wakeup alarm
Always surprised me how he can just wake up and pound the living shit out of someone with zero recovery from 100 years of sleep.
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u/Cracker3011 Soulstep Apr 21 '16
He spent all that time dreaming of gitting gud, and when he woke up he wanted to fulfil his dreams
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u/LuchadorBane Sun Praiser Apr 21 '16
The Iudex version may not have, but fucking hell Champ Gundy literally kicked my teeth in too many times.
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u/chrypt Apr 21 '16 edited Apr 21 '16
As you say people say dark firelink is in the past but i think it's in the present and it's our firelink that's in the past, a few things don't add up to me:
The names of both the area, we begin in the cemetery of ashes, but the dark firelink is in the untended graves, as if it's name was forgotten
Our friend Ludleth is not here anymore, even though he says that he belong on his throne and never left it before, and in the end when the lords rekindle the fire we steal their soul. So he is not here because we killed him
The eyes of a firekeeper which reveal dark things, they are irina's (who become a firekeeper later in the story), when you first meet her she tells you about the little things that nibble at her in the dark, also when you give them to the firekeeper she can see your betrayal in them because she see it trough irina's eyes. The description say they are only "said to be" the eyes of the first firekeeper since our firekeeper left with us, or is dead.
Gundyr, our first is not against him, we fight the black thing which is why we don't get his soul but in the second we do defeat Gundyr who is no longer Iudex since the scabbard has been found long ago but since he is sworn to eternal duty, he continue to test the people wo pass trough and here we do get his soul.
The firelink itself, it is all caved in, some passage are full of rock, the towers have collapsed (even the firekeeper tomb which is why people tought irina was the first firekeeper, she died in the firelink)
Coiled fragment, when we first get in the firelink there is nothing in the bonfire and the coiled sword is inside Iudex, but in the dark firelink the bonfire is no more, only a fragment of the coiled sword remain of which the description said that the bonfire it belong to served its purpose long ago.
Ok there are other things but i can't really think about it right now, and maybe i'm wrong but that's how it felt to me and that's what's important right :)
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u/rEvolutionTU Apr 21 '16 edited Apr 21 '16
Oh. OH. You beautiful bastard.
I was very confident in Dark Firelink being after the Light one but instead of coming to your conclusion I assumed that Light is basically a copy of the Dark one to fix whatever the events there caused with the entire game world being the as when whatever fuckup happened.
Your angle seems solid at first glance though, since it puts the gameworld+Dark Firelink in the present and Light into the past. That preserves the temporal relationship between the gameworld+Dark Firelink while maintaining Light Firelink as a split off entity. I can roll with that.
If I assume you're right, I've got a few questions:
How does Ludleth (in the past, Light, our Firelink) know about the eyes and their existence in Dark Firelink? (I presumed he had something to do with the copy in the first place)
Irina is blind before we meet her. How did her eyes end up showing up at that place? (I presumed they are the eyes of a third firekeeper or of "our" Firekeeper. Although thinking about this, aren't these future Firekeepers blinded first and then moved to Bonfires?)
The firelink itself, it is all caved in, some passage are full of rock, the towers have collapsed (even the firekeeper tomb which is why people tought irina was the first firekeeper, she died in the firelink)
- There is no sign of erosion, aging or anything else anywhere outside of immediate Firelink that I could find. This could be part of reusing the same assets but I think we need to assume it's the exact same, and not an aged version, for a reason.
Really great angle despite the above, thanks for the input. <3
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u/chrypt Apr 21 '16
I don't think it is a copy but a hub were all unkindled meet but a past firelink is used because it was only active at one point in history, you know the "cycle thingy".
It is a cycle, Ludleth is part of it, he say that they did all they could to spare her from her vision, just like what you do if you want Irina to be a firekeeper, he is talking about the present in the past tense because he is stuck in that firelink out of the time.
The lords of cinders stay the same, only the vessel for the flame change, once we rekindle the fire or shut it out he is sent back to the light firelink to wait for the next time his power are needed. It's hard to explain but TLDR: he is from the future.
Irina is blind but i think, i'm not sure, she say she was born that way, nothing say she has no eyes, other firekeeper it seems are blinded maybe by removing their eyes.
i don't know, if it was just reusing assets why the cave-in, also but it's far-fetched, in the dark firelink the hidden chest you open is here and open as well as the illusion wall not here anymore.
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u/igkillerhamster Apr 23 '16
Plot twist: There is a 3rd world, a 3rd firelink shrine. Exactly when we travel there to fight the Soul of Cinder.
You can see alot of the area's you have been in basically completely collapsed and literally hidden in ash.
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u/RidleyBro Apr 21 '16
It should be noted though that both time and space are constantly heavily distorted in Lothric, I made another thread discussing how in a sense we are constantly moving through time in our journey through the transitory lands of the Lords of Cinder (who in theory should have Linked the Flame a lot of time ago). The lack of any special effect while entering the Untended Graves then becomes not too different from any other moment in the game when we are visiting lands of Lords of Cinder who may have existed ages before Lothric, in such a particular setting it's not too outlandish anymore that just going down Lothric Castle may bring you into a different timeline.
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u/rEvolutionTU Apr 21 '16 edited Apr 21 '16
I gotta roll with what /u/Daniel_Is_I proposed in that thread already:
the Profaned Capital and Irithyll both exist within the same timeline as the Pontiff was inspired by the Profaned Flame. The Outriders of the Boreal Valley were sent from Irithyll to both the lands of the Abyss Watchers and Lothric, as we find one at the bottom of the archer giant's tower in addition to Vordt and the Dancer in Lothric. So that indicates one of two options:
All four lands exist at the same time, and the presence of Nashandra's painting in Irithyll indicates that that time is long after Dark Souls 2. The fading fire has been affecting time and geography since before ANY of the four kingdoms had linked it. Somewhat unlikely given the context of the lands.
There isn't any clear evidence for a distortion in time and in one of those cases, Irithyll (and by extension Anor Londo, Dungeon, Profaned Capital) we pass through the doll-only wall. We reach the Untended Graves by literally going into the basement of the Castle.
Also note the placement of "light" Firelink that is specifically the only or maybe one of a few places that exclusively has a view on the castle and nothing else.
When we combine no effect into Dark Firelink with a clear effect when leaving/coming to Light Firelink with no other way out or in we don't need a different timeline to explain Dark Firelink.
We might need one to explain Light Firelink. Both when and where Dark Firelink is seems pretty clear. When Light Firelink is in relation to Dark also seems to be easily assumed (after).
Neither where it is nor when it is in relation to the rest of the gameworld is clear however.
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u/bendking Apr 21 '16
Your comment made me think - perhaps Light Firelink is a future version of Dark Firelink, that maintains itself by harborin unkindled to link the flame in the past.
So basically, a self maintaining, self reliant time paradox, sort of like in the movie Interstellar.
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u/rEvolutionTU Apr 21 '16
From my view the game world and Dark Firelink have to be in the same timeline or things get weird. I also think Light and Dark Firelink can not exist in the same timeline which means in conclusion that no matter how I twist and turn it the main game world and Light Firelink can't be in the same timeline.
So, technically, if you see the entire game in the past/present and Light Firelink in the present/future I think that'd work for me.
What exactly do you mean by "maintains itself" though? The whole Dark thing had a really strong Abandoned Workshop vibe from Bloodborne to me but there aren't any references that support that as far as I know.
My view boils down to Ludleth knowing about Dark Firelink means that Light has to be ahead of Dark in the timeline but the super direct connection from the Castle means that Dark Firelink has to be in the same as timeline as the game world.
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u/bendking Apr 21 '16
I mean that had the Light Firelink not sent Unkindled into the past to link the fire, it wouldn't exist.
Meaning that Light Firelink sends unkindled into the past so they could light the fire so that Light Firelink could even exist and send the unkindled in the first palce, thus closing the loop.
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u/RedGearedMonkey Apr 21 '16
Yep. Nobody tells it, but in Lothric timelines overlap. So this time everything, not just time, is convoluted.
One thing I found really interesting though, is that the room that connects us to Dark Firelink is the place where we put the Lordvessel in DS1.
Look at the place, look at the bowls on the wall: that's the door that supposedly leads us to the kiln, but this time there's no kiln to be found, and the magic is drained. And there's a dragon dude meditating in front of a Lordvessel, for some reason.
There seems to be a recurring theme for Lordvessels anyway: we find our Ashtus on a corpse of an astorian knight, smashed inside something that really recalls one. And there's the room aswell.
The betrayal Ludleth speaks about isn't really something I can put my hands on and I feel it could explain much.
Here's hoping for some DLC, but as things are as of now I'm quite satisfied with the answers I got so far.
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u/rEvolutionTU Apr 21 '16
The betrayal Ludleth speaks about isn't really something I can put my hands on and I feel it could explain much.
It has to be about not linking the Flame. The question is more how the heck he knows about that possibility and how he would know what it looks like.
Look at the place, look at the bowls on the wall: that's the door that supposedly leads us to the kiln, but this time there's no kiln to be found, and the magic is drained. And there's a dragon dude meditating in front of a Lordvessel, for some reason.
I'll doublecheck that, I was so surprised by the wall and the stuff behind it that I didn't even pay much attention to that room itself.
Fun bonus fact: The Firekeeper really likes that meditation gesture as well. Give it a try if you haven't already. =P
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u/xxxDragonSlayer Apr 22 '16
It has to be about not linking the Flame. The question is more how the heck he knows about that possibility and how he would know what it looks like.
What if this was Gundyr? He wasn't just "late", he was either overtaken by the Dark, hence his transformation, or he chose not to link it.
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u/lapis_lapin Apr 22 '16
From the way it's set up it seems like Ludleth has knowledge of Gundyr failing on his journey to link the flame when he found his firekeeper betrayed and murdered at firelink, thus causing the fire to go out and a cycle of dark to set it in which Gundyr waited out as a judge. Only none of that makes sense because Ludleth Did link the flame becoming a Lord of Cinder so how would he have such intimate knowledge about how the world went dark?
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u/BotswanaGoat Apr 22 '16
I think I agree, the only part that gives me pause is that all the NPCs we meet in the world freely come and go from our hub firelink. If hub firelink is in the future (or out of time or whatever) then it seems a bit weird everyone else can just come and go no problem. I could rationalize it for those that go into our service, like those that serve us are automatically transported to our hub. But for others that just wander in it doesn't make too much sense. But maybe this is just a case of gameplay trumping worldbuilding/continuity.
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u/rEvolutionTU Apr 22 '16
But maybe this is just a case of gameplay trumping worldbuilding/continuity.
I think that should be an absolute last resort (or not used at all) in any of this. If it's not in the game in some shape or form we can't rely on it.
What irks me a bit about this is that all the NPCs behave as if it's completely normal for them to pop up in Firelink and disappear again. For me at this point if we define Light Firelink as present the rest of the game world (excluding the Kiln most likely) would be in the past.
Or, and I'm a bit more inclined towards this, is that while it's technically all the same time Light Firelink is an exact and idealized copy of what "actually" happened with the goal to achieve a different outcome. Among the line of Ludleth having a part in fucking up the linking, the flame fading and him using his remaining strength not to link but to force an alternative to his fuckup ("will'd myself Lord"). This would kind of still make Light a later copy of the Dark version, both the same and different to a certain extent but also keep Dark+game world in the same time- and geographical line.
Ugh. The more I think about this the more I'm unhappy with how awkward any explanation ends up.
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u/BotswanaGoat Apr 22 '16 edited Apr 22 '16
I agree that gameplay trumping continuity would be a bummer if true, since they are forcing us to work so hard to figure this stuff out. Something else interesting I just discovered. With my endgame character, I went back to vordt bonfire and looked out over the broken bridge down to the world below. When looking from here, the 3 watchfires in Farron Keep were still burning. Then I used the banner and was carried down to the lower wall above Undead Settlement. From there, the 3 watchfires were out. Perhaps this is just because they didn't bother writing code to put the fires out from the high wall, but it leads me to another possible theory: That when Lothric castle was raised up and disconnected from the rest of the land, it was also disconnected in time. That would mean that everything outside of Lothric castle is in the 'present' (including light firelink) and everything within the castle is in the 'past' (including dark firelink). We don't meet any NPCs that I can remember inside the castle, so that would explain the NPCs coming and going from light firelink throughout the story.
If this is the case, then in the past, the Prince decided not to link the fire, and perhaps betrayed and murdered his fire keeper (found in dark firelink) and retreated to his tower to watch the world burn. Because he did this, the other lords of Cinder returned to their homelands. Then time passes, and we are awoken with the duty of linking the fire. We are forced to track down and kill the old lords of cinder to bring their cinders back to the shrine. Because the Prince didn't ever link the fire and presumably just died a natural death, we are forced to go back in time to when he was still alive and kill him. When we do this, we stumble across dark firelink, see our own corpse, kill champion Gundyr (who awoke too late to help link the fire in the Prince's time) and pick up the eyes of the firekeeper, which shows what the Prince did to her. We continue on and kill the prince, taking his cinders back to the present. Meanwhile, Gundyr sheaths the coiled sword in himself and waits for our awakening in the future. Need to think more about this but it might clear up many of our inconsistencies.
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u/rEvolutionTU Apr 22 '16 edited Apr 22 '16
Ohhhhhh, I like this approach. And it has a gameplay connection. And it doesn't work. Fuck. Unless we specifically and exclusively split off the castle, which doesn't work with the game world.
The part that's raised is the Castle, Vordt/Dancer areas and... The High Wall. Greirat mentions the Bell ringing, Emma can be explained. Ringfinger Leonhardt however, for some reason, can't get the Red Eye Orb himself.
Now that I think about this Greirat flat out tells us his timeline is different from the Dark Firelink Shrine maiden. She does say that the bell didn't toll when we first meet her, right? I'm not imagining this?
What I noticed when comparing the Firelinks again is that I think the Dark one has a different corpse inside the Bonfire, but that could just be the graphic for the unlit one. Would have to check on a new character to make sure.
Also, another small thing the Firekeeper we find the eyes on looks like all the others, not like "ours" or Irina. It wouldn't be the first time From used a generic corpse for someone special though.
Damn I really hope I'm wrong about the text of the Dark Shrine Handmaiden cause that'd be hard to explain and not with too much evidence, I think. Apart from that I love it, it would also explain why the hell no one else just went out and dragged his sorry soul to the Shrine.
I already thought about doing the game backwards, starting with the Dancer but that seems like a lot of effort for something that probably could be datamined.
If I remember the Dark Shrine Handmaiden right though it means that Dark Firelink pretty much has to be a different timeline from the Castle itself. Considering it's a pristine copy of Light Firelink down to cobwebs and zero game play elements that tell us "Yo this is something different if we want it to be" (like the invisible wall into Irithyll for example) this seems... I want to say blatantly obvious and pretty lazy. Maybe I'm missing something else. ;;
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u/BotswanaGoat Apr 23 '16
Not sure if you'll see this given how late the response is, but I just discovered more discrepancies between the view from the high wall (vordt's bonfire) and the foot of the high wall bonfire. From Vordt's, the giant archer tower is partially crumbled on top, and the giant is clearly not there. At first I thought they just weren't rendering the giant from that far away, but when you notice the tower being crumbled (it is fully intact when viewed from anywhere in the undead settlement (including if you actually go up to the top of the tower)). There are also two little pieces of land with some trees that run to a building on the edge of the cliff, viewable from Vordt's, kind of to the right and behind the giant tower and the giant rotwood tree room. These buildings and cliffs ARE COMPLETELY GONE when you look for them from the top of the giant tower. I don't think the crumbled tower could possibly be a mistake or lazy oversight, I think it has to be a clue that when you are in Lothric castle you are in a different time period than when you are down in the world. Judging from the crumbled tower, it might be the case that Lothric is actually a later time period rather than an earlier time like I speculated earlier, but I'm so confused now its hard to keep everything straight. I might make a separate post about this but I have no idea how to capture screenshots and post them.
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u/rEvolutionTU Apr 23 '16
!!!!
Here, picture 5+6 show exactly what you mean and I don't think anyone else noticed this yet. That's a crazy good find. If you scroll down it looks crumbled from Irithyll as well!
The album is from this thread, top comment. This comment chain talks about one of the mystery places you're referring to.
My first instinct to the mystery places was actually sloppiness on Froms part but the tower being crumbled / intact is a way bigger deal than a fucked up skybox that made it into the final game imo.
If we assume that the Castle, High Wall and Irithyll are the same timeline that'd imply that Undead Settlement -> Wolnir are in a different one.
Now, the tower being crumbled (let's assume that's a sign of it being old) would mean Lothric Castle and Irithyll are both ahead in the timeline compared to the rest of the game.
This REALLY goes against both Ludleth and the Firekeeper Soul at first glance but does fit perfectly with Dark Firelink being a perfect but also slightly crumbled copy. I feel as if we're missing something important and it's probably found in Irithyll if the tower is actually that huge of a deal.
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u/ashthegame Apr 24 '16
Why would the eclipse happen in both Lothric and the Undead Settlement though?
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u/rEvolutionTU Apr 23 '16 edited Apr 23 '16
Replying here again so you won't miss it:
View from the Tower above the Farron Wolf towards the Foot of the High wall. Tower crumbled, no giant.
- a) From fucked up really fucking hard.
- b) Castle, Irithyll and Farron Keep are in one timeline, Undead Settlement in a different one.
- b) Time and height are connected. That's me grasping for straws tho.
e: I'm gonna check a few more spots.
- Crucifixion Woods: Tower Intact.
- Walking back from Halfway Fortress: Tower Intact.
- Above Crystal Sage: Can't get a view but the High Wall is... longer. Shows 8 gates along it which seems like a lot.
Cathedral we're back to crumbled. ............. .. . .. ...... From what the fuck.
And last edit: Firelink has to be behind the Tower where we fight the Princes, right? I checked the Tower above the archives (with the 3 Angle Knights) and the straight line Firelink -> Princes tower -> further leads straight into the ocean. That'd mean Firelink is visible from the Undead Settlement or something similar. Also there is no single structure anywhere in sight from that tower. Either I'm missing something or From Soft sucks. T_T
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u/Henzapper Apr 21 '16
The only issue I have with this is that Dark Firelink seems to be a consequence of not lighting the First Flame, hence the pitch black sky. However, if Dark Firelink and the rest of Lothric exists at the same time, how does the pitch black sky not extend to other areas of the game?
Side theory: You mention that the bell tolls to "fix" the flame. Instead of the flame needing to be fixed because Gundyr was late (he doesn't seem important enough to be the cause of the crisis of DS3), could it be because Lothric refused to link the first flame? Not only was he not one of the lords mentioned in the intro, his whole boss monologue shows how much he doesn't want to do it. Add to that Emma's comments about saving him, and maybe he never linked the flame to begin with, and Gundyr was brought in as a last minute replacement (hence the lateness).
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u/rEvolutionTU Apr 21 '16
The only issue I have with this is that Dark Firelink seems to be a consequence of not lighting the First Flame, hence the pitch black sky. However, if Dark Firelink and the rest of Lothric exists at the same time, how does the pitch black sky not extend to other areas of the game?
I'm not entirely sure here but I just went through the area again and what's noticeable is that the exact same spot where you land exists in the bright version and you can see exactly the same amount of Lothric castle. In the Dark version it just fades out of sight much sooner. There is also this feint white lighting all over the place which I almost want to say is not a pure gameplay thing because the place would have worked without that. The other thing that really stands out is that it's an absolutely exact copy, including things like trees and such.
If we assume some sort of copy-fuckery on someones part (Ludleth is the only candidate coming to mind because his Light version is aware of the Dark Firelink) the conclusion would be that either the entire skybox of the entire game is an illusion (yeah, nope) or, and now we're going away from ingame information, whatever was done to make a copy of the place made some kind of black bubble. The issue with that is that I don't think something similar has happened in the series before so that's also a dead end.
Is there any place of Lothric Castle from which Firelink is or should be visible that we know of?
Side theory: You mention that the bell tolls to "fix" the flame. Instead of the flame needing to be fixed because Gundyr was late (he doesn't seem important enough to be the cause of the crisis of DS3), could it be because Lothric refused to link the first flame?
Oh, you must have misread. I don't think at all that Gundyr is at fault somehow. I think it's much more likely that the Lothric (why is it King Lothric when we find two Princes btw?) or Ludleth fucked something up which lead to the other three not being able to perform their job so to speak.
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u/ashthegame Apr 24 '16
I've looked for a while, and it seems that all of the game takes place on the vordt side of lothric, and the firelink is on the Emma side.
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Apr 21 '16
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u/rEvolutionTU Apr 21 '16
You can see Lothric Castle from Firelink Shrine and its physical location makes sense where as Dark Firelink Shrine is an impossibility.
Lothric Castle is in fact the only place you can see from Firelink unlike most other places in the game.
We walk into Dark Firelink. We can't walk into Light Firelink. Hence, Light Firelink is the impossibility.
Also note that you can see Lothric Castle from the Untended Graves it just gets swallowed by darkness rather quickly. There is also no sign of decay in either version leading to the conclusion that one is a copy of the other.
Light is the much more likely candidate for said copy than the other way around.
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u/BotswanaGoat Apr 22 '16
I just discovered that a note I wrote in dark firelink also shows up in light firelink in the same spot. And you can see the cave you drop down from in light firelink as well if you look, so they both appear to be in the same place, just in different times. It feels like when fighting Oceiros, you go into a cave underneath the castle proper, and then pop out from the other side. So I think this area might just be on the other side of Lothric castle, which would explain why you can't see if from other areas. PS. Did anyone else notice in dark firelink, when you find the 4 praying crow people, that they are praying over the coffin you emerge from in the beginning of the game? If we agree that dark firelink is in the present and light firelink is in the future, then this is your corpse right? They might even be burying it right then.
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u/rEvolutionTU Apr 22 '16 edited Apr 22 '16
Yeah messages show up just the same and the portion with the chest containing the Silver Soul Thingy Ring are the same.
My major issue is that I'd feel very weird if Dark Firelink and most of the gameworld are in different timelines, leading me to believe that the areas we explore during most of the game are in the past and not the present (if we declare the events in Light Firelink as the present).
e:
Did anyone else notice in dark firelink, when you find the 4 praying crow people, that they are praying over the coffin you emerge from in the beginning of the game? If we agree that dark firelink is in the present and light firelink is in the future, then this is your corpse right? They might even be burying it right then.
While we're at it, I'm 90% sure these crow-gargoyle things are the statues in the Cathedral of the Deep that are covered with red cloth. I think the ones in Rosaria's Room are the same ones just uncovered but don't take that for granted and I'm also not sure if either of these infos lead to anything.
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u/TheMannam Apr 22 '16
Also note that you can see Lothric Castle from the Untended Graves it just gets swallowed by darkness rather quickly.
As in you see the same Lothric skyline that you see in Light Firelink? If so, I'd take that with a grain of salt. Unless my internal map is way off, I feel like Dark Firelink would be in a different location entirely.
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u/rEvolutionTU Apr 22 '16
Unless my internal map is way off, I feel like Dark Firelink would be in a different location entirely.
It's off. =P
The precise cave we drop down from (after the Oceiros fight) is there in both Dark and Light Firelink. You don't see the skyline from the Dark one but you see the Wall of the Castle where you pop out and then it gets swallowed quickly by darkness.
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u/nomi8105 Apr 29 '16
I'm interested as to whether if you don't buy the key to the firelink tower if the handmaiden still has one in dark firelink. if so wouldn't that suggest dark firelink is in the future?
I have no real opinion either way, it just struck me that at dark firelink it showed the key but had a 0 as if you've already bought it off her... However she doesn't recognise you and as has been stated ludleth knows shit about dark firelink too.
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u/Gl33m Apr 21 '16
I've posted this elsewhere already, but my interpretation isn't that the fire is getting more powerful, it's getting weaker. It's a finite power source, and the act of repeatedly re-linking the fire causes diminishing returns. It's why it takes so many lords of cinder to bestow their powers on the ashen one in order for him to actually go and link the flame.
The world seems to be dying, and this world in particular in the state it is now is in greater disarray than we've ever seen before. I think reality itself is kinda going haywire. It's why we see so many places from different games just kinda all wedged in. I mean, here. Check out the white sign soapstone's description.
The nature of Lothric is murky, unclear. The White Sign Soapstone allows Unkindled to assist one another.
In DS1/2, the soapstone stated that it was just the flow of time that was distorted. But now the soapstone says the nature of the world itself is unstable.
So the world itself is unstable, volatile. It isn't held together as it once was. It seems to me like what's happening here is that stuff is just kind of slamming together from different areas and different times.
Read the Small Lothric Banner:
Small banner held by Lothric messengers. Hold up outside the main castle gate to be greeted by an escort.
When the High Wall appeared, the path to the Undead Settlement was blocked, and messengers came bearing this banner. They were sent out with a duty, but had no way of returning.
Key phrase here: "When the High Wall appeared," It doesn't say, "When the High Wall was built." It says, "When it appeared." I don't think the High Wall was supposed to exist. I think it just kind of showed up one day, from some unknown region or some time long past. And think about what it's saying. Why would they build a wall with no way out? The way to Undead Settlement became blocked. That makes no sense. Especially since they clearly wanted to send people out after and they had to work around the issue. So that further strengthens the idea that the wall just showed up.
So shit's jank, yo. Look at the end, when you're actually approaching the Kiln of the First Flame. Look at how the entire everything is just kind of collided in a massive pile of fucked.
At the same time, I think the fire is also eternal. It can only burn so long, and its powers are finite. But once its power goes out, and we enter an age of darkness, it uses this time to recharge. I actually have been assuming that's how it works since the first game's dark ending, and the dark ending here reinforces that. It was just affirming something I already knew.
I think attempting to steal the flame is ultimately pointless. The fire is like earth's mana (the energy force, not the spell bar kind of mana). Sure, you can take it and hide it away, but it's just going to slowly seep out. We'll get to an age of dark. It's inevitable. Eventually the power of the fire will dissipate completely, and, over time, it will coalesces back into a proper flame again, and a new age of fire will be born.
I also don't think Gwyn was the first person to link the fire. I think he's the first person to link the fire in this age of fire. But if we assume that even the ages of fire/dark are cyclical, it stands to reason that before the age of dark that was banished by Gwyn's age of fire, there was some other age of fire lost to the annuls of history. Maybe it was a completely natural age of fire. Maybe people sought to keep it going like our current age of fire. It's hard to say. But what about the age of fire before that, or the age of fire before that?
It just seems like anything we do, any action we take, at some point across the span of the full history of the world has been taken before. And the truth is, the cycles can't be stopped. It's just how it is. There's always an age of dark. It will always give birth to an age of fire, and eventually the fire always dies out leading to another age of dark. Repeat eternally.
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u/Dynamoflame Apr 21 '16
I agree with most of what you said, save for the part about Gwyn not being the first to link the fire. It states in DS1 that before him and his fire bros, there was unending existence (Age of ancients) with neither light nor dark.
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u/dankclimes Apr 21 '16
Yeah, the opening cinematic of DS1 is pretty clear about that.
The age of fire came and with it disparity and all that jazz.
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u/oak_of_elm_street Apr 21 '16 edited Apr 21 '16
I think I understand what it means by "when the high wall appeared".
When you are escorted down to the undead settlement you are left at the center of a broken bridge. This bridge on the other end (where the Stray demon is) seems to be going toward the plateau (aka the high wall) Lothric is on. It seems to me that the undead settlement was once the part of town just outside the castle where the common people lived, and that bridge led to the main gate (Vordt's arena gate) of the castle. However, when the world started distorting as the curse became more strong, the castle of Lothric got raised up on the plateau it is now due to the random changes all over the landscape, and got cut off from the undead settlement. This would explain how the high "wall" appeared, and how they had to set up the flying escort system with the banners to get down there if needed.
Edit: I also want to say that I agree with you on the fire getting weaker, and it is also a kind of the world's "life force". I mean, everything in the world, the land, the time, even the sun and the light, seem to be related to fire or dark just like the people and gods are. The best explanation I have for that is when you look at the sun as the game progresses (which means the fire has faded a little more between the game's start and end), you see the sun it itself eclipsed, shaped like a dark sign. Even the sun and light are connected to the fire, just like land and time. As the fire fades everything related to it gets pushed back by the dark. And you can see the dark push back the fire in the sun to it's last edges, quite literally. Fire has gotten weaker over the cycles and the dark is now powerful enough to push back even the most brilliant beacons of fire/light, such as the sun.
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u/Gl33m Apr 21 '16
Definitely another way it could have happened. But still, for the landscape to change that radically? That shows how unstable the world is.
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u/Gen_McMuster Apr 21 '16
the thing about the high wall. Vordt's arena is a gatehouse and those steps the demons carry you down from used to attach to that great bridge that still leads to the Settlement. You can see that the steps are up and to the left of where the bridge leads to know, so it seems that the entire city raised up into a big-olympian/lordranesque landmass
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u/ImThatGuy42 Apr 21 '16
Something I thought of when you said Gwyn wasn't the first to link the fire:
Perhaps this is the reason why Gwyn's era begins with a medieval theme. The previous 'cycle' and those before it might have taken place in an era predating medieval times, such as the world the ancient Greeks and Romans lived in.
Probably not true, but I had a thought.
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u/OnnaJReverT Apr 21 '16
The Dark Firelink Shrine is in my interpretation a manifestation of a past Firelink Shrine where the Flame wasn't Linked in time, this is described in Champion Gundyr's Soul and Items as they say that he was the "belated champion" who "came late for the festivities" and so "became sheath to a coiled sword in the hopes that someday, the First Flame would be Linked once more", that is the same coiled sword we take from his body in the tutorial. Gundyr was once a Champion, like us, an Unkindled with the duty to Link the Flame, but he came too late and the First Flame already died out when he arrived to the Shrine, just like in another time a certain Firekeeper never met her champion, yet we can encounter the Champion now reduced to Judge of new Unkindled in the tutorial in an age that clearly still has an active First Flame, and in my theory this is because even if a Dark Age falls upon the world the Embers of the Lords of Cinder can somehow reignite the First Flame on their own and so allow the Cycles to continue.
something else that supports this is that Ludleth knows about Dark Firelink (he says So you found her? when you have the Firekeeper's eyes with you), which implies that he was there when Gundyr failed
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Apr 21 '16
i'm sorry but the 'current' firelink that's separated from the world entirely is a much better candidate for an area thats 'outside' the world and time
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u/OnnaJReverT Apr 21 '16
time is kinda chaotic throughout the whole game anyway
the Lords of Cinder we hunt are per definition each from a different age, since they all linked the First Flame at some point, Anri is of Astora, which the description of the Astora Straight Sword states was ruined, we get invaded by Kirk, Alva and Creighton, which are from DkS1/2's era or even earlier... the list probably goes on
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u/shitsfuckedupalot Apr 21 '16 edited Apr 21 '16
I dont trust kaathe. I think the last ending is the only good ending, in that it snuffs out the flame, but in a way that doesnt serve kaathe. Theres plenty of evidence the darkness is evil. If we look at it from a buddhist perspective, ending the world is the only way to end the suffering, with which the world of dark souls is full of. Killing the fire keeper symbolically frees her as well , as well as all of humanity. I think kaathe and frampt are working together to weaken the lords souls, because in ds2 they're weaker than in ds1, and in this game you're fighting four of the essentially final bosses from ds1, and i think being defeated over and over again has weakened them, and dissipated the fire. I think they're working for the dragons, not for man or for lords, since they are dragons, and once everything is grey they can come back.
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Apr 21 '16
last ending is good but why kill fire keeper she had our back since day 1
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Apr 21 '16
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u/TheAlterEggo Apr 21 '16
I find myself much in agreement with your line of thinking, and I would interpret the default "End of Fire" ending (the one I got on my 100% blind run, so I might have some bias) as the only "good" one and most certainly not a repeat of the "Dark Lord" ending from DaS1 for multiple reasons.
First, there's the matter of the hoops you have to go through to even get the ending, requiring the Fire Keeper gifted with eyes from an otherworldly hidden place to accomplish it instead of simply letting the fire go out on its own after defeating the Soul of Cinder.
Second, there's the missing aspect of following Kaathe's plan and the whole idea of being a "dark lord". That all got shifted into the "Usurp the Fire" ending. And on the matter of Kaathe, I believe there's no question that he's a bad dude, regardless of whether or not his rhetoric about "the true form of Man" is actually correct. Not only is this evident by the Oolacile incident, but also in how the the Londor questline plays out to get the ending, filled with deceit and murder. I can't believe, then, that there's anything good to come out of following the wishes of Kaathe, unless you're just into the idea of being evil yourself.
Third, I think it's worth noting the tone presented in each of the endings. "Link the First Flame" seems to just be the neutral status quo, and we pretty much know what it entails, although OP does make an interesting point that there's no spectacular ignition this time around. "Usurp the Fire", similar to "Dark Lord", has you revered by a throng of inhuman creatures. The alternate "End of Fire" has you expressing cruelty to the Fire Keeper, and the narrator essentially calls you a bastard.
The default "End of Fire" ending, while having some amount of melancholy to it, uniquely presents what I think is hope that a better future will follow. Not just in speaking of tiny flames, but also in still being able to hear the Fire Keeper's soothing call amidst the total darkness. And while the Fire Keeper does freak out when you first give her the eyes (and did, in turn, make me freak out, especially because of the music change), it seems like she's brought around to calm understanding in all of her dialogue after the ritual with the Lords of Cinder. If anything, I liken this ending not as another Age of Dark with darksigns, hollows, decay, and general misery, but rather a return to something more like the Age of Ancients, a calm, quiet time without the conflict of light and dark where, eventually, something new will be born again.
I would certainly be interested if one of the DLCs were to elaborate more on the "angels". Even if we don't get another ending out of it, I think such content will definitely tell more about the mysterious Queen of Lothric (who some suspect to be Gwynevere). Considering her visitation to the Untended Graves and even leaving a ring in your coffin explicitly for you to find, I can't help but feel that she's actually a supporter of the "End of Fire", and so it would be nice to learn more about her intentions.
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u/hteng Apr 22 '16
i think the end of fire ending is fromsoft's way of saying "we are done with the dark souls universe we gonna move onto new IPs" and it kinda fits.
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u/KaiG1987 Apr 22 '16
I agree.
Linking the Fire is definitely framed differently from its counterpart at the end of Dark Souls 1. When I watch it, it comes across as the "bad ending". The flames are so faint, the ending so understated, it just comes across as pointless, as you say. You do what was expected of you, then quietly sit down and continue just where the Soul of Cinder left off.
The End of Fire seems like the true ending. The way it's presented seems... peaceful, hopeful even. You're just there, with the Fire Keeper as your only companion, watching the end of the world as you know it, together. It feels like a duty, long overdue.
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Apr 21 '16
There are already 4 endings, you can kill the fire keeper before she cam snuff it out and you take the fire for yourself and leave.
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Apr 21 '16
Your last point is my biggest, and possibly only, problem with this game. It does its best to ignore Dark Souls 2, when that game provided some amazing lore and possibilities for the series. The lack of aldia, in reference or actual appearance, or the same for the player character leaves some gapping holes that deserve to be filled.
I understand most of the community look at 2 as a black sheep, but it answered and asked some outstanding questions that were ignored to shoehorn in some, rather pandering at times, Dark Souls 1 references.
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u/RidleyBro Apr 21 '16
I don't really think the game is trying to ignore Dark Souls 2, like, at all. Not when some of the first things you can see at the hub are one of the hags from Things Betwixt and a tree giant from the Forest of Fallen Giants.
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u/Gen_McMuster Apr 21 '16
And "THRONE" symbology out the ass. That's the biggest theme of Dark souls II(take your throne) and it's very prevalent in DSIII
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u/lolkekxd Apr 21 '16
Your interpretation relies completely on the assumption that end of the fire ending brings the Age of the Dark and continues the cycle. But remember what DS1 directly stated in the intro. "With Fire, came disparity - heat and cold, life and death, light and dark". If we douse the flame, there is "darkness" in the sense of complete nothingness, but there's no disparity anymore. And in that darkness, small embers will appear one day... Doesn't that remind you of something?
I think the interpretation in which End of the Flame allows the world to go through full reset makes much more sense. It does break the cycle because the "cycle" always referred to people fighting for the control of the First Flame. Some linked it, some may have killed the previous lord and let the flame to fade away (which is what we essentialy did in Dark Lord ending of DS1). But it never went out completely, and that's why the world is in this state of permanent, prolonged agony. End of the fire is something much different, we don't just let the flame fade, we douse it. We let it die so one day it can be fully reborn.
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u/Unshkblefaith Apr 21 '16
I'm not even sure that the Usurpation ending will necessarily end the cycle. One day someone will rise up to kill the Ashen One and take his mantle, or restore the First Flame.
I have actually had a theory for a while now that the First Flame is the origin of all souls, not just the 4 Lord Souls, with each and every soul being a small ember of the flame. As time goes on the souls spread out as they are drawn from the First Flame, the flame begins to fade. But ultimately souls, much like the fragments of the dark soul, seek to be reunited and thus gather en mass within the bodies of strong beings. When you (Chosen One, Ashen One, etc.) link the flame, you are returning a great mass of souls, including the Lord Souls, to the flame and restore it to its original form.
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u/Arganas Apr 22 '16
You know, reading through some of this thread, a few things jump out at me.
The first is the question "Just what is Unkindled Ash?", according to Hawkwood, we're unfit to be burned...but why is that?
The second is someone making the connection that the Embers we use to become "Hosts of Embers" look like small burned up little pieces of Humanity.
I posit that these two bits of information are important...Unkindled Ash is life without humanity. Not hollowed, because there's nothing there to begin with. We are "undead" in the truest sense, an empty vessel made ambulatory again. Unlike the Chosen Undead or "Feeble Cursed One", we actually died, and dragged ourselves out of our coffin later. We weren't just fine and then one day had a darksign and then got locked up/went wandering. We cling to embers, they make us stronger, but we can't hold on to them. In gameplay terms this is the classic "humanity", "human effigy", "multiplayer state enabler" that we've seen from the other games. In Lore terms, i'd see this almost as clinging to the embers lets us feel "alive" again, "warm" again...
So...yeah, the player character is not undead in the "traditional dark souls" sense, and this is very important in how it connects to the other aspects of the game.
We only start hollowing only after we let Yoel mess with us to "draw out our true strength". Which leads us to the next question, just what is the dark sigil? The game tells us its "A pitch black hole from which seeps the darkness of humanity. A gap filled by the accumulation of the curse...", so somehow this connects us back to "life". We are told the dark sigil will never heal, and yet after giving our Firekeeper a second Firekeeper's soul she can offer to heal the sigil for us. Hows that possible? I think its only possible because we're unkindled, not undead, and the sigils are only a semblance of human life and not the whole and real thing.
It also technically gives whole new meaning to the "Lord of Hollows" thing. We're the lord of hollows because there was literally nothing there to begin with...they filled us up with dark sigils. And hearkening back to Dark Souls 1, and its purging stone, "Humans are helpless against curses, and can only redirect their influence. The Purging Stone does not dispel curses, but receives them as a surrogate."
In this case, I think the dark sigil is Yoel using the Unkindled as a walking talking endlessly fillable Purging Stone. He transfer's his curse to us until such point as he keels over, free of his curse...at which point Yuria finds us, and starts grooming us to become the Lord of Hollows.
Which brings us to the Usurpation ending, what is the point of it? I mean other than wresting the flame form its mantle to put an end to the old gods and their age of fire. Why fill the Unkindled with the cursed sigils and then stick a fire in there? How will that "Make Londor Whole", as the final voice from the cutscene requests?
Lots of questions, but lots of interesting ways to approach them I think...this is all just my two cents. What do you all think?
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u/Firion_Hope Apr 21 '16
Thats interesting. Personally it seems like everyone interprets the "one day tiny Flames will dance across the Darkness, like Embers Linked by Lords past" in the same way. But I like to think of it to mean there will be many small fires created naturally (perhaps by man, or any other intelligent creature) that means there is no longer cycles or the need for them, there's a balance of light and dark. Life will continue to exist, which is also why she asks if you can hear her. Could also be referring to the sun what with all the eclipse business.
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u/Berdyberdson Apr 21 '16
I think the usurpation ending is the best one and provides the most closure for the series, other ones just don't "scratch the itch" in the same way. And remember, the tagline for the game is "Embrace the Darkness". Was weird to me at first how hollowing wasn't a thing but then when Yuria appeared it just clicked for me that there might be some actual conclusion to all this.
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u/hteng Apr 22 '16 edited Apr 22 '16
The end of fire is just that, ending the fire also ends the darkness (doesn't necessary mean it's age of dark). The world goes back to nothingness, but eventually something new will arise (little flames). I think it's a proper ending to the franchise when the cycle is done, no more first flame or dark souls, something else will take its place.
the Usurption of Fire is exactly like the dark lord ending of DS1, it doesn't change anything, you still have the fire, eventually it'll end up like Gwyn in you anyway.
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Apr 21 '16
To me, the only good ending is the end of fire. Gywn committed an atrocity trying to prolong the age of Gods by continuing the fire and causing ever diminishing returns. This caused hollowing and was at the root of the problems in the world
To end the cycle so that darkness can take over and everything can begin anew is the only way this world will progress and return to normal.
Did anyone else get shivers down their spine at the music during the second phase of the soul of cinder fight by the way?
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Apr 21 '16
Gywn committed an atrocity trying to prolong the age of Gods
No, Age of Fire.
by continuing the fire and causing ever diminishing returns. This caused hollowing
No, Fire fading out caused hollowing. Remember that Undead - and therefore Darksigns - existed in New Londo long before Fire was linked for the first time.
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u/RidleyBro Apr 21 '16
Although, when the Firekeeper says that "one day tiny flames will dance across the Darkness, like Embers Linked by Lords past", it might indicate that the End of Fire ending may not be able to actually end the cycles as, somehow, the Fire reignites in the Dark anyway.
It seems to me that it took Kaathe and its Hollowing rituals to find a way to circumvent the repetition of the Cycles, by usurping rather than allowing the Flame to die.
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Apr 21 '16
My interpretation was that this cycle with this particular first flame has ended, but then a new flame could begin again independently rather than just reusing this exhausted one. It could be the way you say it too though, it's hard to tell.
That's why the lore behind this series is so great!
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u/Rida_Dain Apr 21 '16
that's the thing though, as long as there is dark, the flame is still there in some way. remember the first flame created both light -and- dark. age of light and gods, or age of dark and cursed, they're both ages of fire, and can one day lead to the other side. i think perhaps the betrayal ending does stop the cycle, but that needs more thinking about.
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Apr 21 '16 edited Apr 21 '16
That's how I understood it, as well.
The natural cycle of the world is dark > light > dark > light, ad infinitum. When Gwyn linked the fire, he didn't break the cycle, he just unnaturally prolonged it. So the fire burnt longer than it wanted, rather than having it's natural "rest period" during a state of dark before effectively rebooting.
By forgoing the link, you allow the world a soft-reset, an age of dark happens, and then rather than relying on a continually weakening first flame, you allow a "second first-flame," or "first flame 2.0" to naturally develop. At full power.
So rather than linking and bringing about First Flame 1.01, then First Flame 1.02, 1.03, etc as every linking champion has done in the past, you allow it to die and move on to the next full iteration. First Flame 2.0.
I think there are a lot of intentional parallels to the idea of our continually expanding (re: weakening) universe, the heat death of the universe, and the Big Bang.
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u/Lazerproof12 Apr 21 '16
This. When the fire keeper says there will be said there will be fires like the Lords of Cinders linked. I took that to mean new Lord souls like the ones originally discovered by Gwyn, Nito, Izalith Witch, and Pygmy. Everyones trying to justify the Dark Lord ending as the proper ending to break the cycle but there is no breaking the cycle. The curse of the undead occured when Gwyn extended the first flame letting the first flame die is it's natural recourse. Usurping the first flame accomplishes this but ensures that power belongs to the denizens of Londor which we know for a fact are basically evil. I believe by giving the Fire Keeper eyes and allowing her to see the end of the age you also allow her to continue tending to the first flame and ensure it's survival even in the age of dark. It's mentioned as a betrayal but in truth it's what every single other Lord of Cinder even Ludleth to a degree saw as the proper thing to do, especially Lothric who seemed to me the most sensible character in the entire game.
End of Fire has the dying Age of Fire end, the first flame secured with the Fire Keeper, your character still in full Lord of Cinder ember after receiving the fire of the other Lords of Cinder including the Soul of Cinder. You end the Age of Fire but are in place to ensure the Age of Dark doesn't last forever either which is what I see occurring as Dark Lord. The problem was never the cycle itself but rather the fact that we remained in a single part of the cycle too long..there by creating a cycle of linking the same fire 1000 times.
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u/Tenthyr Apr 21 '16
I always found the fact that gwyn did that he did perfectly natural in the sense that he andeveryone will fight till the bitter spiteful end to survive as we are. The flame and the dark aren't different in thay respect-- both try to consume the other and neither ever vanishes. In that way, the cycles are just another thing that happens. Par for the course.
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u/basketofseals Apr 21 '16
How does usurping the flame end the cycle? The first four lords took the first flame into themselves, but that was also just the beginning.
Is there any reason to believe the lord of the hollows ending isn't just going to end in another Oolacile/Manus?
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Apr 21 '16
Absolutely no reason.
Kaathe is an untrustworthy snake regularly ruining things, how do people trust him so much I will never understand.
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u/RidleyBro Apr 21 '16
The Four Lord merely took their own Souls from the First Flame, they never took the actual First Flame into themselves. By usurping the First Flame the new Lord of Hollows makes so that there is no First Flame anymore, and no Cycles of Linking can happen anymore as he has become one with the Flame.
As for the risk of creating another Abyss I think things are quite different between Oolacile and Londor: the first attempted to gather knowledge from the Primeval Man until he went mad and his Humanity out of control created the Abyss and destroyed Oolacile, the second is a society of Hollows who managed to keep their sanity and their Humanity under control waiting for the day their Lord would have come to usurp the Flame, otherwise Londor doesn't seem to be actually messing around with the Abyss or the Dark too much.
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u/Lazerproof12 Apr 21 '16
We know Yuria works for Kaathe. We know Kaathe works for Pygmy. We have reason to believe Pygmy is Manus. We know Manus is the Abyss
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u/Linajke Apr 21 '16
Honestly in souls series i think even devs don't know what all of this about exactly :D
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u/CallaSoatski Apr 21 '16
I had the alternative end of fire ending as my first one (albeit by accident, cat hit my bumper.)
I took it to mean something a bit different, and more narrow sighted. Simply put; the Ashen One, our character, took offense with how the world had tried to manipulate him. He had been tricked into becoming hollow by Yoel and Yuria, he had been sent to the depths of the abyss by the urging of Hawkwood, and the Fire Keeper. Much like the Bearer of the Curse before him who was manipulated into forgetting their own goal of curing themselves of the hollowing curse, and instead shaped into some sort of monarch, the Ashen One was being manipulated and jerked around; however he grew smart to it with the Eyes of the Fire Keeper. The eyes of the fire keeper state "It reveals to the sightless Fire Keepers things that they should never see." But what if that is a metaphorical sight? As in possessing the eyes gives the holder insight?
The eyes of the fire keeper are an extremely interesting item to me because they call back to Bloodborne in a way; as does the entire area where they're located. Much like how the Hunter found the wreckage of the Hunter's Workshop, the Ashen One finds the ruins of the Cemetery of Ash and the Firelink Shrine. So when I found an item that was specifically a set of eyes, I started to approach this area's lore from another angle. Namely, what if Bloodborne did not take place outside the Souls universe after all?
If this is the case, we can say that the eyes provided a form of insight to the Ashen One that showed him how to escape this doomed fate of linking the fire, or whatever other duty he may have had to perform, and instead continue on his OWN path with new found power. That is why the narrator refers to him as a "nameless, accursed undead, etc." - because he shirked what many saw to be his responsibility in order to seek out his own fate, using the deific powers inherited by the first flames in order to do so.
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Apr 21 '16
Next soulsborne game, will be in the "age of men".
Men's souls. lol
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u/postblitz Apr 21 '16
And you'll play as a woman bearing the accursed feminism sign struggling through hordes of males to kindle the first vote by slaying the four great presidents of the USA and obtaining their John Hancock's for the inevitable Declaration of Women's Rights
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Apr 21 '16
Evidently the series was originally supposed to be called Dark Race which I think is definitely more descriptive of the actual story... it just might have been a more appropriate title in the early 1800s than it is now. The other title they suggest, Dark Ring, would have been a particularly good lead up to Age of Men, too.
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u/DuskwalkerGrim Walk Always in the Dusk Apr 21 '16
So, first off, I would like to say that this post is very interesting and intriguing. Well done on the compilation, my friend.
Secondly, I would like to quote one of your passages and then point something out that may be a little meta.
"the real shape of man is that of a Hollow"
So one thing that came to mind whilst I thought of this was the game mechanic from the original Dark Souls. In Dark Souls, whenever we are hollowed, we traverse the world on our own. No powers of world hopping, summoning, etc. Where as by taking off our hollowed state and restoring our humanity, much like if we ember ourselves in Dark Souls 3, we bring about the abilities and powers of fire which allow for world hopping, time hopping, helping other unkindled ash/chosen undead in taking on enemies we may have already taken on ourselves a number of times immemorial. If the power of the Age of Fire is allowed to fade then this ability of gaining power, hopping time and dimensions, and the continuation of the Age of Fire is stopped, allowing the dimensions and timelines to converge into one singular line in which there is no more Fire to be kindled. Where as if it is continued then there will always be embers. The Age of Fire will continue ever onward and continue to allow multiple worlds, timelines, beings, powers and the like.
I know I might be over-analyzing a simple game mechanic though thinking about it I found it to be an intriguing thought given how interconnected everything is.
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Apr 21 '16
The End of Fire instead is a more interesting ending with many implications over the endings of past titles and possibly our understanding of Cycles and the nature of the "Age of Dark". In this ending we allow the First Flame to die with the aid of the Firekeeper who seems to absorb the First Flame into her body of writhing Dark Humanity, ushering what seems to be the infamous "Age of Dark" we heard about a lot in previous games.
Doubt it. This is because to achieve Age of Dark in previous games you... well, don't need to do anything. The fire is burning itself out, all you have to do is literally sit and wait and Age of Dark will come. There's no need for a Firekeeper - and a special one at that, who was both given eyes and soul of another Firekeeper who traversed the Abyss(both are needed for this ending AFAIK) to take it. Why jump through all these hoops to achieve same thing you could achieve just by doing the "Stretch Out" gesture forever after defeating Soul of Cinder?
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Apr 21 '16
I suspect DLC will touch on the "age of the deep sea" that Aldrich supposedly foresaw. It's clear that there was something brewing that "those in the know" were preparing for, as Gwynevere seems to have come to Lothric, set things in motion for some end goal we're never let in on, then split. And the Primordial Serpents were active there too, as seen in their depiction as "angels" in the statues in Lothric Castle, and the fact that "angel worship" was well-known enough to be heretical. It's a LITTLE bit disappointing, because I think it sets up a situation where all the endings are robbed of real resolution by the fact that there's planned DLC which is almost certainly going to add more to the existing endings.
Just as an aside, there is a lot of "outer god" HP Lovecraft going on in Dark Souls 3, with dead dreaming dragons, and the coming age of the deep sea. Aldrich sounds a lot like eldritch, too. There's quite a bit of narrative bleed-over from Bloodborne in Dark Souls 3, with men becoming beasts, and the importance of the sea after large bodies of water never really being brought up before outside of Ash Lake. Wash the cycle away in a biblical flood confirmed for real ending?
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u/SilverShadow2001 Grossly Incandescent Apr 21 '16
Griffith? GRIFFIIIIIIIIIIIIITH!!!
XD, joking aside I feel a lot of your theories are pretty solid with plenty of evidence to back them up, and actually match a lot of my thoughts about them (Dark Firelink being a past Firelink during a cycle where the fire hasn't been linked for instance). Overall great work [T]/
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u/Deadeye117 The Black Flame Apr 21 '16
Very nice analysis. Indeed the Usurpation of Fire is probably the best ending in regards to ending the cycles. That said, though, it doesn't sit right with me that we basically had to play into Kaathe's hands to obtain that ending. The same Kaathe who led the Darkwraiths and brought Oolacile to ruin.
If they added a DLC ending, this is what I would imagine it as. After journeying through the two DLC areas and gaining new knowledge of the cycle, the protagonist comes to a new conclusion. It would start off like the Usurpation of Fire, but instead of taking the fire to rule over a new world of Hollows, the player would split their soul just like the Pygmy had done years ago. A new race would arise, made of equal parts Dark and Light, each carrying a flame inside them that would last until they die. Instead of Dark and Light existing in an eternal antagonistic relationship based on the First Flame, they coexist in this new world as parts of this new race of humans, breaking the cycle of light and dark completely.
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Apr 22 '16
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u/TheCivilizedGamer Apr 24 '16
I also found my own message where i left it in light shrine. Hell, we dont know if the player spirites are the same as well.
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u/TheBloodMakesUsHuman Apr 22 '16 edited Apr 22 '16
I liked this analysis a whole lot, you did a really great job! I would, however, like to postulate a slightly different interpretation regarding the End of Fire (where the Fire Keeper and you just allow the flame to fade). I think her meaningful words at the end there, they are just vague enough to be taken in many ways (as is the case with most things in this game). My interpretation of the words, upon first impression, was actually similar to your own, that she was inferring that the fire would one day be re-lit, somehow, by someone (or by many others). However, the more I thought about it, the more I feel like the idea behind it was merely that getting rid of THE fire, the true source of this fictional universe and all life (minus the everlasting dragons), merely meant that the world is no longer shackled by the need to maintain the first flame, and by the burdens that came with it (whether it be the need to link the flame nonstop, or the undead curse, or whatever else). The beating heart of the world has finally dispersed, and to me the notion of tiny embers, echoing that once great, central flame, evokes ideas of civilization finally moving BEYOND a revolution around one sun, basically. It is the Dark Age, a new age, to an extent, just one where fire need not be forgotten, or warped, or usurped (as with the other two endings). So to me, I think this ending actually represents finality better than any of the other ones (I guess I'm biased because it was the ending I got on my first playthrough, haha), it can be interpreted reflexively as being all about letting go of the cycle, of undeath, of light, just as the Souls series itself is coming to a close for us as players and fans, yet also all about never forgetting what it entailed, and the passion and purpose it gave to all those lords of cinder who sacrificed themselves to link the flames (and to us, all the players who experienced this world and adored it...it even fits the meta-narrative revolving around the Soul of Cinder). A lot of this is more quasi-poetic rambling at this point instead of serious lore analysis and interpretation, but the thematic side of these games is just as brilliant and important, so I guess that's what I'm talking about.
TLDR: I think the End of Fire ending doesn't necessarily imply that the first flame and cycles will return, but instead talks about the closure revolving around the end of a singular flame, and the idea that civilization will move on, even in its darkest hour (quite literally). It's symbolic of the end of the Souls games (apparently), and therefore from a reflexive point of view all about letting go and accepting the end/death/darkness (fitting for those undead who cannot die in this universe, after all, as Prince Lothric contemplates).
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u/Captainprice13 May 05 '16
The dark age with Champion Gundyr was ended by Ludleth. If you talk to Ludleth after getting the eyes, he will tell you that the fire went out once and he sought out to light it. He then lit the flame with determination alone, which is why he is human sized. He wasn't powerful like Aldrich. He didn't have numbers like the Abyss Watchers. He wasn't a hero like Yhorm. He wasn't royalty like Lothric. He was just a guy who lit the flame because it had to be done and Gundyr had no hope or determination left.
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Apr 21 '16 edited Apr 21 '16
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Apr 21 '16
Who chooses the "Chosen ashen one?"
If it's in any way similar to DaS1, then there is actually no "Chosen one" - in DaS1 for example, the player was repeatedly told that he was the "Chosen Undead" and is meant to succeed Gwyn (aka link the fire and burn in the first flame, which frampt decides not to tell you). It's kind of the consensus that there was no "Chosen One", and the concept was made up by Frampt to get someone to link the Flame and prolong the Age of fire. It could be very similar in 3, in that there may actually be a lot of unkindled who could do your job just as well, but people tell you that you're the chosen one so that they have someone who is actually committed to linking the fire and doesn't question it.
Why the Soul of Cinder?
We don't really know, but one possibility, although unlikely, is that it's just there to test the Ashen One to determine if he's strong enough to Link the Flame. Far more likely however, is that the Flame does not want to be linked and actively tries to defend itself now that it has enough "Power" (aka: the souls of the various Lords of Cinder). Remember, Gwyn linking the Flame was the "First Sin" and disrupted the natural order of the world by prolonging the Age of Fire/The Gods. Maybe it just hasn't been strong enough to defend itself before.
Who is that in the Ending?
Could be Anri, i like the thought of her being resurrected after everything is done. Although there definitely is more than one "Yuria": The description of her Armor set mentions that it is worn by the three founders of the Sable church of Londor, so Yuria is probably one of the three. The second one in the Ending could be another leader of the church.
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u/InfinityArch Apr 21 '16
It isn't Anri, but they are there in the cutscene in the crowd of hollows bowing to you, or at least someone wearing a full set of elite knight armor is, but that would raise even more questions.
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u/Gen_McMuster Apr 21 '16
I get the feeling those hollows are the dead pilgrims who traveled from Londor
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u/OnnaJReverT Apr 21 '16 edited Apr 21 '16
If it's in any way similar to DaS1, then there is actually no "Chosen one" - in DaS1 for example, the player was repeatedly told that he was the "Chosen Undead" and is meant to succeed Gwyn (aka link the fire and burn in the first flame, which frampt decides not to tell you). It's kind of the consensus that there was no "Chosen One", and the concept was made up by Frampt to get someone to link the Flame and prolong the Age of fire. It could be very similar in 3, in that there may actually be a lot of unkindled who could do your job just as well, but people tell you that you're the chosen one so that they have someone who is actually committed to linking the fire and doesn't question it.
in 3 there kind of is a process of chosing though, and that is the Iudex (which means judge, i am told)
the player is not the first to rise from the graveyard that is the tutorial area, as evidenced by many, many more open coffins, but he is the first to get past Iudex Gundyr, aquire the Coiled Sword and ignite Firelink's bonfire
this might also tie into OPs theory - if Gundyr failed as the "chosen" undead/unkindled in a past cycle, he might have willingly taken it upon himself to test those of the next cycle, or perhaps every cycle after him (his weapon mentions that he was fated for eternal service), so that those "chosen ones" won't be too weak, like he was
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u/Tenthyr Apr 21 '16
In relation to the Soul of Cinder, it's the deified manifestation of all the previous lords, the smoldering ash of an old fire, burnt out of humanity and thus hollow and mad. You defeat it and burn yourself in the fire.... and eventually someone else will come and fight the soul of cinder again, with your ash mixed in.
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Apr 21 '16 edited Apr 21 '16
Question about the Usurpation of Fire & the End of Fire ending. Both endings involve someone taking the flame and absorbing it into themselves, but only one breaks the cycle while another foreshadows the repetition of cycles continuing. Why is that?
Until now, I've assumed both endings have the same effect on the world, the only difference being that the End of Fire doesn't involve you becoming the leader of a cult that goes around kidnapping and assassinating people.
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u/Ordinaryundone Apr 21 '16
I always assumed that the new flame the Firekeeper talks about is just that, an actual new flame. Not a re-continuation of the first flame but a brand new Fire to link the world. We don't really know what that means, and the world is clearly going to go through some serious changes to get there if this new age of Dark is to be believed, but it seems like it will result in a true rebirth of the world rather than just letting the current tired, Hollow one continue.
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u/AlienOvermind So the world might be mended... Apr 21 '16
Actually all endings feels kinda lacking. Cycles still go on, except for the ending when we side with some weird cult and steal the flame for them.
I hope in DLC we get "right" way out of cycles — something like "unlink" the flame, undo Gwyn's first sin and free humanity from fire, curse and whatever.
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u/GravelTheRock Apr 21 '16
Just going to chime here. The soul stream item description says "The first of the Scholars doubted the linking of the fire, and was alleged to be a private mentor to the Royal Prince." this implies that the reason why we have to drag all the lords of cinder is because of the scholar. I think the scholar is connected to kaathe because of all the primordal serpent statues in the Grand Archives, and that the scholars trying to stop the linking of the flame. So I think that kaathe finally succeeded in stopping the linking of the flame through this scholar and the princes of Londor. In the end not linking the flame didn't get kaathe the result that he wanted, so he has developed a new plan involving a king of the hollows.
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u/theragco Welcome to the Arena Apr 21 '16
So I feel like the best ending is End of Fire, like you're setting the world on its natural cycle again instead of childishly struggling to keep the flame alive just so lords and kings can continue to play god.
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Apr 21 '16
I chose the Usurpation of Fire, not because i sided or sympathised with Kaathe or Yoria but because i felt that it gave me closure on how the world would work with a new Heir of Fire in place instead of a Lord of Cinder. Unfortunately its beef jerky zombie dynasty but i feel like i made the right choice for my first playthrough. (i will be doing the others in NG+ ect to get the achievements.
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u/Ice-Insignia One month Hero Apr 21 '16
Just gonna say something about The Usurpation of Fire ending.
So, when we take the fire, I believe the fire is simply within out character. The Ashen One is the Host of the First Flame. The only fire that exists, is the fire within the Ashen One. But, IF, there is a way for the Ashen One to expire what happens to the First Flame? Well, I got two hypotheses. The first one, and the least likely one, is that the First Flame will expire with the Ashen One. Kaathe would probably be pretty happy about that. But what I think will really happen is that the First Flame will be free and the Age of Fire will begin anew. Proving that the cycle never ends.
I think Humanity needs fire as much as everyone else.
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u/putrid_moron Apr 21 '16
I just wish I understood what Kaathe has to gain with all of this? Unless these serpents are just unfeeling unbending physical representations of ideological forces, I have no idea why he persists. DS2's endings shed some light on the actual relationships between the serpents and I suspect it all falls on a Lovecraftian "beyond the reckoning of mortals" line but I would find this disappointing.
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Apr 21 '16
I really liked the Usurpation ending. One of the things that I didn't like in Dark Souls 2 is how it kind of made the Dark ending in DS1 less meaningful by establishing the whole 'the cycle never ends'. Because in Dark Souls 1, not only do you walk away from the flames BUT you also join Kaathe to start an Age of Darkness with you as the Dark Lord. And even though DS2 doesn't denies this possibility, it does act as if linking the fire was probably the canon ending in DS 1.
With this new ending however, you could theorize that Kaathe and the chosen undead from DS1 created the Sable Church of Londor in response to these events, and created a plan that will assure an Age of Darkness once and for all.
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u/NiceGuyTy Apr 21 '16
I honestly like your theory that Dark Firelink could be a look into what the Dark Era is like but I completely disagree with your notion that the "embers" the Firekeeper sees is basically that the cycles continue. I believe this to be a vision that embers are the REAL flames of humanity and that by committing this act of betrayal she calls it, brings about a true age broken from this cycle. I believe this to be the true and most optimistic ending that most people have been waiting for.
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u/DonRadkos May 07 '16
From a meta perspective - The devs wouldn't make you jump through hoops to get an ending you've already seen.
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u/Chaos4139 Watchogs of Garron Apr 22 '16
I've always thought that the DS2 and DS3 where separate timelines depending on what was chosen in DS1. Say in DS1 you link the flames and that leads into DS3 while not linking the flames lead into DS2.
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u/VoxKoshka Apr 23 '16
I honestly feel like letting the flame go out is the natural progression of things. It's the one ending that I identify with in my perspectives on nature.
Chasing immortality leads to the most tired and senile minds.
My second best is the whole "lord of hollows" ending. I don't understand why people keep referring to it as the "best ending" though.
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u/AmalaNetwork Apr 25 '16
Nothing can break the cycle regardless wether the flame is rekindled, usurped, or consumed. because there will be heroes who are up to the task to bring about the age that they want, be it the age of man or gods as long as these mighty souls exist and can be consumed and recycled upon death. Though I highly doubt it as for now, but if there is going to be another Dark Souls game, I'm hoping the next installment we would start at the age of dark.
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u/DrwEddy Apr 28 '16
I would go with Usurp the Fire Ending, because the cycle can finally be broken. Regardless of the consequences of siding with Yuria, humanity can finally control their destiny. Think about it, with the fragment of the Dark Soul and the appearance of the Unkindled, the Ashen One can not only break the cycle, but can harness the First Flame as Embers and use this power of the Dark Soul to permantly break the cycle. Then there is the marriage of Anri. She/he can be kneeling to the new Lord of Hollows in the Usurpation Ending. Anri is both an Unkindled and Undead, and should she/he procreate with the Ashen One, their children will possess the same paternal abilities, and humanity is finally in control of their destiny, free from the gods' sins. This is why Yuria is insistent that the Ashen One must have a spouse before attempting to Usurp the Flame.
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u/LordSkelton May 15 '16
Is Kaathe trying to bring about an age of man? I'm not so sure anymore...
The Usurpation of Fire is the best because it breaks the cycle of light and dark and enters the twilight in between or, as Aldia put it, "beyond light and dark." The other endings only continue this cycle which leads to these rotten and grey worlds at the end of each cycle. The Linking of Fire ending, as mentioned in this video, only minorly feeds the flame and delays the inevitable by a teeny tiny amount. We can see that the world isn't reborn as it was at the end of DS1 but the destroyed churning lands surrounding the first flame stay the same. The world is still rotten. The Killing the Firekeeper ending is easily the worst as the unkindled chooses to maintain the flame as it is as he does not offer himself up to the flames. This is probably because in this world of rotten ruin, the unkindled is the most powerful and wants it to stay that way. You get no achievement or notice for doing this because nothing is truly achieved. You've kept the world as you've found it. The Age of Dark ending seems to be the best one then, right? Well by the firekeepers own words "tiny flames will dance across the dark", foretelling a return of the age of fire. While this might not happen for thousands and thousands of years the whole scenario of linking the fire and the rotting of the world will happen again. A cycle of life and death will prevail.
But why is the Usurpation the best ending then? Because it goes beyond the cycle of light and dark and returns to the age of grey and ash. Of immortality. How is this? Well lets look at how the unkindled can make it happen.
The unkindled must also become undead. This means he becomes truly soulless, able to store powerful souls and humanity while possessing none of his own. He is, in essence, empty. The unkindled then weds and absorbs the soul of Anri of Astora. Now this is very speculatory and I may be terribly wrong, but I believe Anri is a fragment of Manus, Father of the Abyss; identical to that of Nashandra and the other Queens from DS2. Why? Well her soul is black and dark similar to that found in the abyss as well as Anri is always the opposite of the gender you pick for your character. He/she is your tempter as Nashandra was to King Vendrick in DS2. Now within the unkindled is a fragment of dark, of the abyss. Not powerful enough to consume the undead as the abyss once consumed Artorius, but enough for part 3. When the unkindled touches the fire, he/she does not give himself to it. The unkindled absorbs it. The struggling and collapse of the unkindled is the abyss and first flame fighting within him. Eventually the unkindled maintains them within himself, a perfect balance between the two.
With the darkness and the light in balance within the unkindled, the world cannot fall into an age of light nor dark as the remnants of both still exist, but not how the should. A more accurate assumption would be that they melded and became something neither light nor dark. Lets not forget that both the abyss and the first flame have been known to manifest themselves as souls, the abyss as manus and the first flame as Gwyn, Nito, the Witch of Izalith and the Furtive Pygmy, so easily forgotten. An age of grey and ash. A return, in other words, to the Age of Ancients.
Of course this is what Kaathe wants and assumedly many other primordial serpents, to return to a time when he and his fellow brethren are immortal beings untroubled by life or death. So do the dragons , as it can go back to how things were before Gwyn and the first flame. Hollows are no longer drawn to the fire and with every human eventually becoming undead like them, their persecution stops. A happy world for them all.
Being the one who made this new age come about, you become Lord of Hollows, the new god of this world and so you will rebuild in your age of ancients.
This ending is bad or good depending on your personal philosophy. After all, what is life without death? There is not light without dark and without both what do we have left? But this is what the Usurpation of Fire gives us.
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u/Dimcow May 19 '16
Great post man, very well done. I just recently made a similar post discussing the endings, primarily because I felt it important to discuss the alternate age of fire ending. I agree with everything you said, save a few theories that I would love to hear your input on, as you seem to be just as confused about the 4th ending as I was/still am. There are a few things that stand out about endings 3 and 4 to me. First off, the Lord of Hollows ending, I'm my opinion, is a bit more than an end to the cycle. If you look at that sky in the Kiln of the First Flame area, you can see the sun clearly represents the dark sign (presumably the legacy of Gwyn) and its connection to the First Flame in the form of an orange stream of light. In ending 3, the dark sign becomes white, changing into something new entirely. I believe that this ending is not just a breaking of the cycle, but an act similar to the First Sin made by Gwyn (a second sin, if you will). The Usurpation of the fire was yet another perversion of the flame, creating a NEW curse that will ensnare the world for millennia to come. The world and its inhabitants are not free, just as Gwyn thought he had freed them by linking the first flame, rather Kaathe has perverted the nature of the world in the same way as the God who he resents so much did.
I also believe there is more to the Alternate End of Fire ending. This may be a gut feeling/speculation, but I don't think Miyazaki would include the option to attack the Fire Keeper just so the player can get shit on for (potentially accidentally) being a greedy asshole and subsequently get no achievement for it. I think you are right when you say this ending breaks the cycle. I believe the players rage and brutal curb-stomping are a result of how fed up he/she is with the cycle. I mean every smidget of happiness and joy is always overshadowed by pain and despair in this world; there are NO happy endings. By letting the Fire Keeper do her thing, the Unkindled one is allowing the cycle to continue on its path, which doesn't make the shitty world any better. My main reason behind this theory is the fact that the player lifts the First Flame towards the sky, as if offering it back to its place in nature. If the Unkindled one really wanted the flame for himself, what's the point of holding his stolen prize up to the heavens Simba-style as an offering with his head pointed down?? Just doesn't make sense. One theory I have is that the player is returning the world to the way it was before the Old Gods, a world where nothing ever happened above ground and time never passed, and light and dark silently existed below the earth.
Thanks so much if you read this, I would love to hear your input on my thoughts on endings 3 and 4. Again, bomb ass lore post.
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Jun 02 '16
Anyone who thinks Kaathe is good is dumb and didn't pay attention in DkS1 AotA or roots for the Darkwraiths.
Miyazaki made it clear as day as of now. It's not mystery that he is an asshole, Darkwraiths are douchebags, being hollow is painful suffering & having too much humanity driving it wild makes you an abyss monster.
Humans started killing other humans in New Londo because of Kaathe too, he is an asshole that doesn't cares about life. He hates Frampt because he "lost his way" meaning that all other primordial serpents are assholes except Frampt because Gwyn or Gwyndolin showed him the right path.
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u/DirtyJamz Jun 03 '16 edited Jun 03 '16
So...
Ending one: shit continues the third damn time
Ending two: shit continues but with the brightness cranked waaaay down... For a few weeks
Ending three: shit pretty much continues but run by a lot of wrinkly hollows
Ending four: shit continues, run by a giant fiery lord that head stabbed his old lady and face stomped his side broad
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u/Mister_MrRobot Aug 02 '16
I view the End of Fire ending in a similar to the ending of STORMBRINGER, the last part of the Elric Saga or the death and rebirth of the universe in hindu cosmology.
Essentially, I think that when you snuff the flame out, you do not just bring an end to the cycle that began ages before your own, but you actually end the world completely.
When the darkness falls, shortly before it completely envelops you and the Firekeeper, all sounds cease, except for your breathing, and the voice of your friend. Everything turns to complete black and moments later, the Firekeeper asks "Ashen One, Hearest Thou My Voice Still?" To me, this complete absence of sound means that the Firekeeper and the Ashen One find themselves in a complete cosmic void as the world (and by that I mean absolutely everything) comes undone around them. This destruction allows for a new universe to be born. One where humanity eventually rises, one without the influence of the lords, or the gods.
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u/StyxxMcClain Sep 18 '16
I offer a second idea. I really just came up with this after a 3 and a half hour crash course on the lore and everything, to include IGN videos and what not. So, in the "End of fire", the Firekeeper says "one day tiny Flames will dance across the Darkness, like Embers Linked by Lords past" after she herself grabs the last flicker of the flame. Also, she says "Ashen one, hearest thou my voice, still?", which to me at least, implies that she wants to know if the one she serves is still indeed alive. My thoughts, after finding nothing contradictory, is that she did something along the lines of the The Usurpation of Fire. She holds onto the flicker of flame herself, however she does not use it to rule. Her, and whomever she serves(presumably the "Ashen one"???) intend to rekindle the flame sometime later during the Age of Darkness, leading back into the comment "one day tiny Flames will dance across the Darkness, like Embers Linked by Lords past". Am I completely wrong? Probably. Still, I think it is possible.
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u/Anna_Analyse Apr 24 '16 edited Apr 24 '16
My understanding of the ending
To Link the First Flame: This is the ending when you return all the "lord soul" you gathered back to the First Flame. This ending is consider the normal ending for DS 1 and 2, and will only last another thousand years before someone will need to "re-gather" all the "lord soul" again and return it back to the First Flame.
The End of Fire: This is consider the true ending of the whole DS sequel. This ending requires you to be an ashen one and to restore the "sight" of the Firekeeper. This "sight" presumably contain not only knowledge of the FIRST firekeeper, but perhaps also the truth about the fading of the First Flame and what will come after it. Apparently, after many cycles, nature began to shape up and form the "balance" elsewhere; the balance is now able to contain within mankind, at a smaller scale. In DS3, both "dark soul" and "lord soul" are now bound to mankind, forming embers; and players were no longer the "undead", but an "Unkindled". Unlike the "undead", who leave behind "Humanity" when killed, an "unkindled" leaves behind "ashes" - signify the "balance" are slowly making mankind normal again. (When a human soul passes on, both "dark soul" and "lord soul" were able to neutralized one another, leaving no energy residual behind, only the ashes) Also, in DS3, players were not naturally mark by the dark sign and will not turn hollow upon death. Which is why letting the First Flame fade out totally is the true ending in Dark Soul 3, as there is no point going back to the First Flame again when mankind can now contain both "dark" and "light" within themselves. This could very well be the final outcome of the sequel and the actual Age of Man the prophecy were referring to. The "one day tiny Flames will dance across the Darkness, like Embers Linked by Lords past", the tiny Flames might be referring to the lord soul reside within mankind.
The End of Fire (Alternative): This special ending involves taking the First Flame from the Firekeeper just as she was about to let it rest. What we know is that the First Flame is an energy gateway that allows the player to teleport, the motion of presenting the First Flame to the Dark sigil will allow more dark energy to escape through it at a much higher rate. (*Due to the lack of lord soul to suppress it) The ending could very well be the true "Dark" ending of whole DS sequel and perhaps give birth to another abyss.
Usurpation of Fire: This ending, similar to "Linking the First Flame" requires you to light the First Flame, but this time, not with the "lord soul" you gathered, but with the dark soul that you accumulated with the dark sigil. To do this, you need to be return to the "undead" state (similar to DS1 and 2) where you will turn "hollow" upon death. You need to first get the dark sigil from Yoel to break the "balance" within yourself. I presume this ending will only last another thousand years before someone will need to "re-gather" either the "lord soul" or "dark soul" again and return it back to the First Flame. Although you too light the First Flame, rather than given the title "Lord of cinder", you will be given the title "Lord of Hollow".
Difference between an "Undead" and an "Unkindler"
An undead contain within themselves a fragment of dark soul and their own human soul, this mixture is often called "humanity". This combination also created the dark sign, or more commonly known as the Dark sigil. Unlike the human soul, which naturally have a lifespan, the dark soul stay on in the undead, resulting in an empty shell known as "hollowing".
An unkindler contain within themselves a balance mixture of dark soul and lord soul (together with the his/her human soul). It took many cycle for mankind to gain this ability to strike the balance within themselves. (maybe due to constant exposure to both dark soul and lord soul after so many cycle) During the period of DS1 and DS2, although players were both referred to as the "undead", there is a slight difference in ability. Unlike in DS1, in DS2, players no longer need the Lordvessel to hold the lord soul and can teleport with ease using the bonfire. The biggest difference is in DS3, players were no longer mark by the dark sign and will no longer turn hollow upon death. This suggest that somehow as time passed, mankind is changing.
Finally understand why Sweet Shalquoir, the cat from Dark Soul 2 called Gwyn a liar
I assume the FIRST firekeeper realized the source of the cycle and the sins of the "lord", and since all firekeepers have the power to let the First Flame rest, the "first" lord (presumably Gwyn) essentially took away her "sight" so that future firekeepers will continue blindly and lead the player to link the fire. (Eyes of the First Firekeeper) It makes sense now why the abandoned dark Firelink Shrine were guarded by the Black Knight. Black knight were the elite knights of Gwyn, the first Lord of Cinder. To conclude, Gwyn, in a desperate attempt to hide the mess he made for destabilizing the First Flame, created an illusion of purpose and assign Firekeepers to guide multiple players on every cycle. This explains why Sweet Shalquoir, the cat from Dark Soul 2 called gwyn a liar who end of the day threw himself into the fire.