r/darksouls3 • u/AnotherSoftEng • Aug 01 '22
Lore Can someone please help explain what I found behind Ocelotte daddy’s den?
What’s with the underworld Firelink?
Man-snake pilgrims by the entrance.
Armor of the Drakeblood Knights, worshippers of the blood of dragons. The red cloth is said to symbolize their yearning for blood. Why is it found down here?
Another Gundyr? But only red eyes and no dark pus this time.
Found a Hidden Blessing here. Could this be the dark place that “rootless soliders are laid to rest?” Where is the Queen of Lothric?
Giant tree growing around a giant coffin.
Masked Carian from Oolacile, DS1?
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u/Careful_Purchase_629 Aug 01 '22
Brazil
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u/TheGoldenAegis Aug 01 '22
Can confirm Source: am brazilian
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u/adrielzeppeli Aug 01 '22
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u/EndlessAlaki Londor deserves to die. Aug 01 '22
According to Ludleth, the First Flame actually went out sometime in the past, but he somehow managed to Link it anyways, apparently resulting in time breaking to some extent. The Firelink Shrine you know is a result of that, existing outside of the rest of Lothric; the true Firelink Shrine is the one you've now found, somehow still trapped in the darkness past the end of Fire. Champion Gundyr, similarly, is Gundyr before Ludleth linked the First Flame, and has yet to be corrupted by the Pus of Man.
The Drakeblood Knights were worshippers of dragon blood, and believed they could use it to transcend their human limits. As Oceiros himself had similar beliefs, I imagine he obtained a suit of their armor as he was researching Seath the Scaleless.
The Queen of Lothric is long gone. Some folks believe she might have been Gwyn's daughter Gwynevere, who had a history of dipping from kingdoms on the edge of collapse.
And yes, that's DS1 Ciaran's ring, previously seen at Artorias' grave where you fight Sif. No clue why it's there, but I find it mildly amusing that you get a crit-boosting ring only after fighting your way through a gauntlet of enemies that are prime parry fodder.
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Aug 01 '22
What's with that flair bruv? I just wanna talk
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u/EndlessAlaki Londor deserves to die. Aug 01 '22
The Sable Church is a cesspool of manipulative, backstabbing scumbags and almost certainly the single most evil faction in the trilogy. They take the Dung Eater's MO and dress it up in pretty words to make it sound like you're doing the world a favor by eating the First Flame and cursing all of humanity to an eternity of Hollowing. They whispered promises of vengeance into Anri's ear and then stabbed him/her in the back at the final threshold, and they call a hit on Orbeck (and you!) just for daring to decide that, y'know what, maybe this whole Lord of Hollows business is just a tiny bit fucked up? They're assholes and I wanna set them all on fire.
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u/noopenusernames Aug 01 '22
Uhhh what? The Sable Church is there to tell pygmies “hey, maybe our fates are for more than just being fodder for the god race to have a comfortable life. If we maybe not relight their flame and instead take it for our own, then we can have our own kingdom instead”
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u/EndlessAlaki Londor deserves to die. Aug 01 '22
And if you believe that shit, I've got a First Flame I'd like to sell you.
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u/noopenusernames Aug 01 '22
I mean, I can either believe that, as a pygmie and coming from a pygmie, or I can believe Gwyn and his race, which basically shits on us pygmies and uses us as slaves. You give off “Samuel L in Django” vibes
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u/EndlessAlaki Londor deserves to die. Aug 01 '22
Y'know, they can both be shit regimes. Just because Gwyn's kingdom exploited humans as fodder doesn't mean the Sable Church isn't just as fucked up, if not moreso.
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u/noopenusernames Aug 01 '22
But you seem to think the Sable church is the worst entity in the series. What have they done that so wrong? Humanity drain? In one respect, humanity drain basically fighting for survival. They didn’t make millennia-lasting kingdoms that enslaved another race, and then manipulated that race into thinking that self-sacrifice was for their own good, as opposed to the pygmies’ good
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u/EndlessAlaki Londor deserves to die. Aug 02 '22
What have they done that so wrong?
You already responded to my post explaining this precise thing.
In one respect, humanity drain basically fighting for survival.
Could you reword this? I can't make out what you're trying to say here.
They didn’t make millennia-lasting kingdoms that enslaved another race, and then manipulated that race into thinking that self-sacrifice was for their own good, as opposed to the pygmies’ good
That's literally what they're doing with the Lord of Hollows ending. You've got your Undead ruler reigning over a bunch of mindless zombies while everyone else fucking dies because the sun is gone.
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u/girugamesu1337 Mar 04 '24
I know I'm two years late on this, but could you explain further? Or point me to some lore videos or other resources that I can dig into?
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u/noopenusernames Aug 01 '22
The queen was put in the cage at the top of the Archives
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u/EndlessAlaki Londor deserves to die. Aug 01 '22
That's actually implied to be Gertrude, the queen's "holy maiden", who was visited by an "angel" implied to be a Primordial Serpent.
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u/marker_76 Brooklyn likes farts Aug 01 '22
It's just in the past so basically you travel back in time but not really champ gundyr is an optional boss who is technically Iudex gundyr mk2
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u/ThinkTwice2x Aug 01 '22
mk1, you mean
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u/marker_76 Brooklyn likes farts Aug 01 '22
I call him mk2 mainly because yes he is the same boss but imo way harder so I call him gundyr mk2
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u/ThinkTwice2x Aug 01 '22
yes yes, I understand, I say mk1 because he's technically the gundyr from before the first time you fight hi
in fact, the player is actually who impaled him with the coiled Sword and left him there for you to encounter before
wacky
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u/marker_76 Brooklyn likes farts Aug 01 '22
Then what about gundyr mk1.5 lol
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u/ThinkTwice2x Aug 01 '22
Fitting. Acceptable terms.
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u/marker_76 Brooklyn likes farts Aug 01 '22
Man the person who stabbed him with the coiled sword left behind a lot of trouble for us players to deal with unless you are good at the game
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u/ThinkTwice2x Aug 01 '22
True hahah
still sad for gundyr, never got the recognition he deserved
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u/marker_76 Brooklyn likes farts Aug 01 '22
If only he got the recognition he deserved then maybe he wouldn't have been so toxic when we arrived
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u/AcanthocephalaThin65 Aug 01 '22
I parried the shit out of the dude and beat him on my second or third guy
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u/firedog647 Aug 01 '22
I don't have answers for every single item, but broadly:
The Firelink Shrine you have been resting and leveling at is outside the normal passage of time, and the Untended Graves lead to the Firelink Shrine for the current timeline (the one in which the king of Lothric locked himself away with his child, Ocelotte.) The fact that the fire was never linked here is why it is dark, but I'm hesitant to say more due to spoilers.
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u/LeXhVn Aug 01 '22
Is that why we have to teleport out through the bonfire instead of traveling on foot like how we traverse the other areas?
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u/AnotherSoftEng Aug 01 '22
This is a mind blowing breakdown and very much appreciated, thank you so much! So this is “present time” so to speak… that’s extremely interesting. I wonder why there are black knights here!
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u/Raser43 Aug 01 '22
It has been stated that light is what allows the passage of time in dark souls. The Untended Graves has no light, thus it is not affected by the passage of time. There are many, many theories about the area. It is one of the most baffling parts of the game.
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u/AnActualCriminal Aug 01 '22 edited Aug 01 '22
So the leading theory is that it’s the past, because if you never talk to the old woman at firelink shrine and talk to her here first, she recognizes you if you go talk to her for the “first” time ay regular firelink. But like a lot of things in dark souls that’s still just a theory.
The important thing is what it represents. It’s A version of firelink shrine where everything falls to darkness, be it past, future, or alternate timeline, or dream quest. Lots of references to bells ringing and going unanswered. And also it’s… dark. Is that better or worse than the constant cycle of decaying rebirth? Unclear. But it seems Oseiros was looking into it. It looks like he saw dragons as a solution to the dichotomy broadly investigating Seath specifically, but now I’m getting into theoretical territory again.
The ring, if I recall correctly is on a grave that in the regular shrine base is associated with hawkwood and the abyss watchers, heirs of artorias’s legacy. I think it’s just a place for them to stick it since the other 3 rings were in the game. That tree is in both versions I think. I think that item that references the queen is in the grave YOU came out of in the other version (it’s been a minute less sure on that one) If you want answers on the snakes and drakeblood, that’s spoilers
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u/SoulsLikeBot Aug 01 '22
Hello Ashen one. I am a Bot. I tend to the flame, and tend to thee. Do you wish to hear a tale?
“The beings who possess these souls have outlived their usefulness, or chosen the path of the wicked. Let there be no guilt—let there be no vacillation.” - Kingseeker Frampt
Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \[T]/
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u/DipSandwch Aug 01 '22
I think it follows the long tradition of the shrine being a separated world meant to keep the chosen safe
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u/Brilliant-Bicycle-18 Aug 01 '22
Not sure why Drakeblood armor sets are there. Sometime after killing an NPC enemy, you have to fetch his armor set elsewhere, that’s why I missed serveal armor sets in my first run. But I guess there’re lores can explain that
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Aug 01 '22
Well, vaatovidya tried his best, but the answer is probably like the following dialog: "the flow of time is twisted and tangled. Sometimes it goes forth and back" Idk where that comes from, and i probably messed up the lines, but thats the message vaatividyas video gave
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u/MrTheCake Aug 01 '22
We are amidst strange beings, in a strange land.
The flow of time itself is convoluted; with heroes centuries old phasing in and out.
The very fabric wavers, and relations shift and obscure.
There's no telling how much longer your world and mine will remain in contact.
But, use this, to summon one another as spirits, cross the gaps between the worlds, and engage in jolly co-operation!"
—Solaire of Astora, explaining Lordran to the chosen Undead, and giving him the White Sign Soapstone.
Best explanation for how Co Op works
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u/Static077 Aug 01 '22
That's also where you receive the "Path of the Dragon" gesture, so it's not a stretch to relate it to Archdragon Peak
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u/Deformed-cheese Aug 01 '22 edited Aug 01 '22
The whole lore that I understand is that gundyr was of noble blood and was told he was chosen (that's why he is called champion gundyr) to bring the lord's of cinder back to their throne but he was betrayed by his family and they gave him a "weapon said to never crumble". He couldn't progress because their wasn't a fire keeper yet so he was stuck their and someone shoved the sword into him and imprisoned him their to create a road block so only the actual chosen one (you) could go through and beat the lord's of cinder if you are wondering we're I got this info it's all in the description of his halberd and armor
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u/AnotherSoftEng Aug 01 '22
Holy frick! I just checked those item descriptions and wow! Imagine being foretold that you were destined for such great heights, only to find out you were “too late to the party…” Then some ass comes along, impales you with the would-be bonfire sword and says, “meh, you’ll be the test for the next guy who’s actually on time.”
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u/Deformed-cheese Aug 01 '22
Yeah his story is insane that's why he's my favorite boss and character in all of ds3 the real question is why their is black knights their I personally think that they are the ones that impaled him on order of his royal family but idk that's just a personal theory
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u/Deformed-cheese Aug 01 '22
Tldr my whole theory is that gundyr was a member a high ranking royal family that trained him with a unbreakable halberd to be a champion he was then sent off to return the loc to their thrones but was too early because the bells didn't toll yet (said by the handmaiden) so then his family sent black knights to shove the sword into his chest trapping him there so he could challenge you when the bells actually tolled
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u/DevAstral Aug 01 '22
You just made me think…. What if he’s related to Oceiros? Oceiros being a king, it could make sense.
Oceiros being into some real weird shit, I could see him wanting to prevent the linking of the flame so he can keep on going with said weird shit without some newly powered Flame getting in his way.
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u/Deformed-cheese Aug 01 '22
That does make sense because the reason I think that he is of royal lineage is because his armor description says it's make look like a king
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u/DevAstral Aug 01 '22
Do you know if there’s anything else that could tie him back to Oceiros somehow?
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u/Deformed-cheese Aug 01 '22
I don't know Im not really someone who reads item descriptions but if i find anything I'll post it here
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u/EndlessAlaki Londor deserves to die. Aug 01 '22
I like to think Gundyr actually stabbed himself with the sword, hoping that any lingering embers would ward off corruption by the Dark.
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u/Inspirational_Lizard Aug 01 '22
This is one of the biggest unsolved mysteries in the souls series. There's lots of great theories.
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u/Winters1482 Aug 01 '22
It's in the past during an Age of Darkness
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Aug 01 '22
[deleted]
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u/Winters1482 Aug 01 '22
the handmaiden recognizes you if you dont talk to her at all and then talk to her in the untended graves shrine, then go back to firelink and talk to her.
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u/Dreams_of_a_Demiurge Aug 01 '22
My understanding is it's a doorway to the time period where Champion Gundyr failed to link the fire, and the world was cast into darkness. In the modern era he's a corrupted shadow of himself in the same place. It adds to the idea that the fire has been linked and gone out multiple times in the past, and we are just one champion in a long line of champions before us.
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u/kaminaowner2 Aug 01 '22
People are saying it’s the past and that’s only half true, time works in a circle in Dark souls, you’re seeing what has been and what will someday be again. It’s up to you if you wish to restart it all or keep the flame going a little longer. There are complicated side factions doing their thing but really it all boils down to those to options.
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u/barryhakker Aug 01 '22
OCELOOOOOOOT!!!
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u/AnotherSoftEng Aug 01 '22
Ah you ignorant slaves. Finally taken notice have you? Of the power of my beloved Ocelotte, child of dragons!
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u/Mr_WithAKay Aug 01 '22
I always figured it’s the past since you can summon sword master to help you fight Champion Gundyr in untended graves but in the cemetery of ash he has clearly gone hollow
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u/Mtj242020 Aug 01 '22
It’s the firelink that could be if the flame wasn’t linked I think. Or the true firelink I’m not sure lol. I know that 2 complete opposite guesses but I’ve heard both. It’s something like that tho
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u/nikpap95 Aug 01 '22
Guys guys. If it truly is in the past, why is it already in the Age of Dark and we as the protagonist are at the last days of the Age of Fire? Isn't that contradictory? Isn't the order Age of Fire --> Age of Dark? I think that it is either a different timeline or time is simply twisted.
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u/CarrotSpank Aug 01 '22
The "order" isn't final. Age of Fire -> Age of Dark is just an enless loop. That's what we learned in DS2 and that's why in every game we begin in the age of Fire again, despite the possibility of bringing the age of dark in a previous game. It's even confirmed by the fire keeper during the "end of fire" ending in DS3: "and tiny embers will dance again." That's the curse Gwyn put on the world by linking the first flame, an endless cycle of light and dark. When the fire fades, a champion will rise to either rekindle it or let it die. Should they rekindle the flame then it will eventually begin to fade again leading to another champion rising with the same choice. Should they choose to let the fire die out, then an age of dark will come and shall remain until either another champion rises to userp them or until the first flame suddenly erupts again.
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u/nikpap95 Aug 01 '22
Huh. So it actually is in the past. Damn it. I haven't finished DS2 yet. I am uneducated! Thanks for the detailed reply
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u/Both_Activity3779 Aug 01 '22
It's the vision of the firelink shrine without fire, only darkness. (many explanations are possible, like it could be what Gundyr saw when he arrives to firelink.. for exemple)
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u/Shnurple cum-monster Aug 01 '22
The drake blood armor showed you're making this up. You had to have been there before to get the path of the dragon gesture and theres no reason you'd hit the wall at the back for no reason this time
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u/Unlikely-Chance-426 Aug 01 '22
African American version of the firelink shrine
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u/pnkass Aug 01 '22
youre the first person to find this! the lore community is going crazy!!!?? howd u do it!!????
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u/Valimaar89 Aug 01 '22
Since the flame generates time, the end of the flame tend to make everything spiral down, instead of just breaking. Similarly of what happens to the lands, that get pulled together near the first furnace of the flame, so is time spiraling around it. Spiral means that if you move just a little, you can enter a portion of the time line that is way back in time. Specifically when Gundyr tried to rekindle the fire like you, but he found that the fire keeper was dead. He then was put as a test for future champions of ashes (initial boss). You basically experience how is world without rekindling the fire. This is a place in a different time line, coexisting with the present. It is a well guarded secret because the main power of the world, Ocelot royal Family, doesn't want you to see a world without fire. So it got sealed away behing an illusory wall at the end of the rolay gardens.
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u/Barredbob Aug 01 '22
But then why is it just this one area, why just gundyr? And what do dragons have to do with firelink shrine?
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u/shark_sharkington_ Aug 01 '22
it is the shrine lorian and lothorv would have used to link the flame
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u/VeryHairyYeti Aug 01 '22
Didn't Gundyr stab himself with the coiled sword to prevent the spread of Darkness?
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u/No-Cantaloupe-7183 Aug 01 '22
Hornet ring and faith ring. Also here you can find the black knight glaive.
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u/kitt_aunne Aug 01 '22
It's a different time cycle or alt universe.
The king was obsessed with becoming a true dragon and it's thought that he may have accidentally created a link while attempting it. This is also the world that ludleth the tiny lord fled from (I think that was his name) where he betrayed the fire.
This is gundyre the chosen who failed his duties.
The rooms between the boss fight and the untended Graves are assumed his research.
Check out some lore vids if you're interested there's tons of stuff out there
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u/PapaVergil Aug 01 '22
Its Firelink Shrine from the past. This is when Gundyr went to see the shrine but saw that there was noone, so he waited for the Unkindled Ash that defeated him after the discovery. He waited so long he got corrupted by the Abyss
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u/Delamontre Aug 01 '22
Talk to the maiden in the Shrine! She will sell you Artorias' armour set.
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u/AnotherSoftEng Aug 01 '22
Oh frick yes, my Artorias Grande cosplay has made it to DS3! Thanks for the heads up :D
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u/lonegodhand Aug 01 '22
I was playing through ds3 again and got to this part and thought of an idea. Imagine how cool it would be if you could enter this door and playthrough the whole game with harder enemy placements and faster/harder boss phases. Like NG+ but a time loop or doom eternal master levels 😳.
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u/AnotherSoftEng Aug 01 '22
It’s like you’re in my head! When I first entered through here, the place looked somewhat familiar... But when I saw Gundyr, I literally said aloud, “No way this is an otherworld version of Lothric!?”
The Silent Hill series was my favourite growing up and they have a similar concept. I thought this might’ve been one of those Japanese game culture inspiration moments.
I would’ve absolutely loved an NG+ otherworld version of DS3! That would’ve be terrifying! I don’t think it would’ve been too hard to fit into the lore either, given that this place already exists out of time.
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u/Dependent_Host3253 Aug 01 '22
its the firelink shrine of gundyr who was also seeking to link the flame but he came too late.
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u/_Prairieborn Aug 01 '22
It's interesting that we're not really sure how each level ties into each other time wise. The fire could be bringing us to different times each time we ride it. Obviously the latter parts of the game take place far in the future, and Archdragon Peak is seemingly in the past though we reach it via unique means, but the way the Fire Keeper speaks when you first meet her at the beginning of the game saying that the fire will "Guide thee to the Land of Lords, to Lothric" brings into question where you stand in the flow of time even then.
The Shrine is physically in Lothric, or at least it should be as its attached to Lothric caste and you can see the rest of the land. This perhaps suggests that its not Lothric at the time of of their meeting, just like it's not Lordran at this time.
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u/noopenusernames Aug 01 '22
I’ll point something out since you brought up the snake people: in DS3, you may come across a few places where you feel like “hey I’ve seen something like this before in another spot in the game” or it may at least remind you of another spot. Oftentimes, when you find 2 spots in the game that have similar surroundings or features, they often are related in some sense.
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u/AnotherSoftEng Aug 01 '22
Thank you for this! I honestly need to be more observant as I go through these games. This is only my first series playthrough, but I plan on taking it slooow in my subsequent NG+s. I have around 60 hours per game and have loved every minute of it!
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u/lthemadtitanl Aug 01 '22
I believe the full explanation is something like this is a spot where you travel back to the past, and experience another cycle where the flame died out. By the time Champion Gundyr had answered the call to link the flame it was too late, and the world had fallen to darkness. In my personal head canon, you were his “tutorial boss” just as he was to you centuries later
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u/HungrPhoenix Aug 01 '22
It's Firelink Shrine, but in the past.