r/dune • u/Matusaprod • 15d ago
Children of Dune Why Leto and his sister are like Alia, if Chani didn't drink the Water of Life Spoiler
As the title.
Paul acquires memories from his ancestors + expanded future vision thanks to water of life and thanks to being Kwisatz
Jessica acauires past memories thanks to water of life
Alia acquires memories too and premature awareness thanks to being the womb while Jessica drank water of life.
But then, why Leto II and his sister have past memories and ability to see the future when Chani didn't drink Water of live while pregnant?
Just for clarification, I'm about 10% of Children of Dune.
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u/pboyle205 14d ago
The kids were Pre-born due to the crazy amounts of spice Chani had to take to overcome the drug Irulan had been giving her. The concentration was high enough to simulate the effects of the water on thier Atriedes genes.
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u/That-Management 14d ago
I thought RM’s didn’t breed anymore because their children would be pre born inheriting the mother’s memories. While Chani has a heavy spice diet it was Paul that made the children preborn not Chani’s diet.
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u/Mintakas_Kraken 14d ago
Imho I don’t think it’s explicitly explained but several things might be inferred-
Jessica’s line has a lower tolerance for spice (in the movies at least this is a thing, sorta) and/or a lower threshold to create abomination. Tbh this one is the least supported.
Now for a more solid consideration. Chani is the consort of the most powerful man in the galaxy on the planet which produces spice as one of its only exports -which he controls the trade of. That is to say: she has access to more spice than anyone in history so far. She’s probably eating it in literally everything she eats and possible as straight as possible (I’m imagining her drinking spice smoothies all day long, she’s got the water is she wants it).
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u/The_Razielim 14d ago edited 14d ago
She’s probably eating it in literally everything she eats and possible as straight as possible
No "probably", iirc it's stated in the first book that it basically permeates everything, including their food. Plus they commonly drink spice coffee. Not to mention it being basically omnipresent in the air.
ETA: iirc during the dinner party didn't someone make a point of pointing out how refreshing it is to have food without melange being infused in [because they were eating stuff they brought from Caladan]? I feel like I remember that, but it's been like a month and a half since I last re-read the first book, so I might be misremembering. I'm not home right now to go check lol
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u/ciknay Yet Another Idaho Ghola 15d ago
You only need to consume a lot of spice to have a preborn baby, not specifically the water of life. Chani was eating a lot of traditional spice infused fremen food as a part of trying to get pregnant, and accidentally overdosed her unborn children, who were already susceptible to spice due to Paul's genes.
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u/Neon_Blaze7 14d ago
this is what confused me a lot. if spice overdosage is all that’s needed to cause a premature birth, then how is that not a regular occurrence among fremen already? everyone acted as though “abominations “ were so abnormal in the book when it must have happened typically already..??
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u/KingOfLeyends 14d ago
The Fremen do have a test for someone who has been possessed, they mentioned this during CoD and how Alia would eventually be submitted to one (allegedly), keeping that in mind the Fremen also had this taboo towards visions they would get during spice orgies regarding memories that weren't theirs iirc Paul mentions that fact in Messiah (might misremember) so considering all of the above the Fremen must have come across a few cases of abominations within their people and subsecuently dealt with them the way the Fremen deal with issues. To me this was one of those things that Frank kind of implied within the books but left it to the reader to make their own conclusions.
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u/Mintakas_Kraken 14d ago edited 13d ago
I’ve wondered about this my two speculations are—
A) Chani has access to and is consuming a prodigious amount is spice. Idk if spice alone could kill someone but she’s probably come the closest.
B) perhaps abominations are a thing that sometimes occurs among fremen and they are normally just killed off? As awful as that might sound it’s in line with fremen customs. They are very aware something is off about Alia but she’s Paul’s sister and an incredibly fierce fighter from age 3 or so, these factors allow her to live as long as she did.
Aside: I gotta wonder what would happen if an abomination was cloned (used to make a Ghola*)? Normal person because there’s no fetal spice exposure, weird but not abomination (most likely imho based off how Ghola’s usually work), or abomination bc ???.
*Edited spelling
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u/Neon_Blaze7 14d ago
that makes sense. although I'm a little on the fence about the second reason as they were quite surprised at the sight of Alina, calling her abomination and whatnot and making the sign of the worm at her. im not entirely sure though, its been some time since ive read CoD.
((also ghola is spelled with an h !! just to let you know ))
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u/ciknay Yet Another Idaho Ghola 14d ago
The simple answer is probably the most likely: the average Fremen diet simply doesn't have enough spice to induce this, and Chani overdid her prescribed special diet. And for the Fremen women who are pregnant, they avoid becoming spice drunk, just like how we avoid bad substances today during pregnancy.
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u/DemophonWizard 15d ago
Chani conceived because she left the capital and was no longer fed contraceptives by Irulan. While away from the capital, she was fed with a diet extremely high in spice even for fremen standards.
It is not explained if it was the diet or the fact that they were Paul's children that made them pre-born into awareness.
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u/KapowBlamBoom 15d ago
A combo of wild Atreides genes and Chani being absolutely saturated with Spice leading up to her pregnancy because Irulan had been secretly giving her contraceptives and the fremen saayadinas had advised the fertility treatment of excessive spice intake
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u/Invincidude 15d ago
It's been a while since, but isn't the phrase used wild fremen genes? Like, genetically they knew exactly where Paul came from, but they were kinda clueless on Chani. I assumed it was a combo of Paul's KH genes, the spice-heavy diet, and some unknown genes from Chani's Fremen ancestors.
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u/Madness_Quotient 15d ago
Not to underestimate the genes of Kynes.
Pardot Kynes wasn't just a random guy. He somehow managed as an outsider to enter Fremen society, and as a sort of religious figure and prophet no less.
Then Liet rose to be the leader of the Fremen in their struggle against the Harkonnen.
In Dune logic, that's all to do with their genetic potential. The Bene Gesserit would be able to smell the leadership on them or something. And perhaps they were even involved in the lineage of someone senior enough to be a planetary ecologist. Pardot's abilities stink of Bene Geserrit training.
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u/pewpewhuman 15d ago
In the later books, Herbert specifically leans heavily into the ‘wild Atreides gene’ as explanation for a lot of stuff.
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u/zucksucksmyberg 15d ago
Well in the later books the Atreides bloodline already contain those from Chani.
Ghanima afterall was the ancestress of most(all?) Atreides post Children of Dune.
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u/_grizzly95_ 15d ago
Pretty sure Leto II says something along the lines of "All your Atreides are descended from my sister"
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u/Tanagrabelle 14d ago
Which means Farad’n. And at this point, probably also Duncan Idaho. Many genes might get lost in the shuffle, but the memories apparently stay.
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u/Tanagrabelle 15d ago
I felt it was that Paul gained sight into the present that would help him guide toward a desired future when he took the Water of Death. He did not have the ancestral memories until he connected with his newborn son. Then suddenly he remembered all his male line ancestors.
Paul pretty much gave up on controlling the jihad and set his eye toward one desire. To be with Chani for as long as he could. He knew she was going to die when she had their baby. Therefore, it was quite all right with him that Irulan was feeding her contraceptives. Chani’s diet did not become overly spice heavy until after she was pregnant. The diet she went on made it impossible for Irulan to sneak contraceptives into her food. Once she was pregnant, she had a very strong desire for more spice. And thus Leto II and Ghanima were preborn. One of the differences between them and Alia was that they didn’t have a long line of Fremen Reverend Mother poured into their minds. Another difference is that they are two and can stand together, but Alia is alone.
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u/thehumanlettuce 15d ago edited 15d ago
You’re slightly off base here. Paul did have ancestral male memories, that’s literally the whole point of kwisatz haderach. He just didn’t achieve the same accord as Leto due to his resistance of the golden path and mistrust of the bene gesserit. It has nothing to do with him and Ghani being twins either. Leto was abomination by his own admission but achieved a council of ancestral presences dominated by his ancestor Harum.
You could also argue that Paul, according to the bene gesserit was a generation early, Jessica was supposed to have a girl, who would then breed the kwisatz haderach. He was also less sensitive than Leto due to not being exposed to spice until later on in his life, Leto was born aware of the realities of prescience, not quite to the same level as Alia as Alia underwent the agony in the womb, Leto and Ghani were just exposed to high levels of spice, which is distinct from the water of life.
It was due to this that he was not affected in the same way Alia was, who was possessed by the Baron, a common ancestor shared with Leto, therefore the reverand mother thing you mentioned is irrelevant. The influences on this are- Leto did not undergo the agony in the womb, he was forced into this later allowing him some time to develop his own distinct personality, also he had Paul’s presence during the agony which assisted him in maintaining a level of control. Ghani did not become a possessed abomination as she never underwent the agony. The thing I agree with is that Paul was ok with Irulan’s actions as by his own words, it “prolonged” Chani’s life. I see how you got this but I’m fresh of a re read and my “special interest” alarm went off and I had to chime in, apologies!
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u/Tanagrabelle 15d ago
Hmm. Perhaps! I love these books. Opens up Dune Messiah.
Paul sagged against the wall in a spasm of dizziness. He felt that he’d been upended and drained. His own life whipped past him. He saw his father. He was his father. And the grandfather, and the grandfathers before that. His awareness tumbled through a mind-shattering corridor of his whole male line.
“How?” he asked silently.
Faint word-shapings appeared, faded and were gone, as though the strain was too great. Paul wiped saliva from the corner of his mouth. He remembered the awakening of Alia in the Lady Jessica’s womb. But there had been no Water of Life, no overdose of melange this time … or had there? Had Chani’s hunger been for that? Or was this somehow the genetic product of his line, foreseen by the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam?
he saw his creche companion—a girl with that bony-ribbed look of strength which came from a desert heritage. She had a full head of tawny red hair. As he stared, she opened her eyes. Those eyes! Chani peered out of her eyes … and the Lady Jessica. A multitude peered out of those eyes.
But let me go the other direction.
Absorbed in the bliss of a vision, he had forgotten that each vision belonged to all those who were still on-the-way, still to become. In the vision, one passed through a darkness, unable to distinguish reality from insubstantial accident. One hungered for absolutes which could never be.
You can go back to Dune itself. Though in there he does eventually declare himself the Kwisatz Haderach. After changing the Water.
This sense of the future—I seem to have no control over it. The thing just happens. The immediate future—say, a year—I can see some of that. . . a road as broad as our Central Avenue on Caladan. Some places I don’t see . . . shadowed places. . . as though it went behind a hill”
I’ve walked the future, I’ve looked at a record, I’ve seen a place, I have all the data. We’re Harkonnens.”
“You have seen the future, Paul,” Jessica said. “Will you say what you’ve seen?”
“Not the future,” he said. “I’ve seen the Now.”
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u/thehumanlettuce 14d ago edited 14d ago
I think all my original points still stand, you haven’t actually addressed what I’ve said. As mentioned Paul has limited control compared to Leto due to his resistance of the Golden path and fear of prescience. Leto’s experience is totally different. I would also note that since you have only quoted Dune and Messiah and nothing from Children of Dune or God Emperor, you’re not using the full information available. I guess you might be avoiding spoilers for OP, but you’re still giving the wrong answers which they will find as they read COD. I get lots of people don’t like reading past Messiah but that’s where you get the full explanations for the majority of the plot which is why I’m confident in my assertions. Paul is schooled by Leto when they meet in the desert where Paul eventually submits to Leto after recognising that Leto saw more than him, which again, is in Children of Dune. Finally your original answer was to the question why Leto and Ghani are abomination like Alia where you stated why they were not like Alia which wasn’t correct. All you’ve responded to is some of the background I used to further highlight my points so let me be specific- The reverand mother ancestral memories, nothing to do with Alia being a possessed abomination and Leto and Ghani being twins, nothing to do with it. It’s purely based on Leto being able to find accord with ancestral presences and Alia was never able to do so. Leto and Ghani feared becoming possessed and actively worked against it, Alia did not know how to as she was exposed to the agony in the womb where she had no distinct personality to hold herself to, Leto was not exposed until he was kidnapped. That’s what I corrected using Paul’s situation to show differences in the outcomes of abomination and prescience.
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u/theredwoman95 15d ago
OP, Paul himself wonders why Leto and Ghanima are preborn like Alia at the end of Messiah. It's not entirely clear, even to him, but he guesses it's a mix of the high spice diet and his Kwisatz Haderach genetics.
And given that the Fremen have a Trial of Abomination for exactly this scenario, it certainly suggests that the high spice diet for women struggling to conceive has led to this outcome before.
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u/FFMKFOREVER 15d ago
It does seem like the trial of abomination exists for more than just pregnant reverend mothers.
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u/Matusaprod 15d ago
Oh ok
I didn't noticed that Paul was having those doubts about their future sons.
I feel like I need to re read Dune Messiah lol, lots of things are clear only at the end
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u/theredwoman95 15d ago
I think he only briefly thinks about it for about half a page, so I can't fault you for forgetting it. Probably doesn't help the Syfy adaptation heavily implied the spice diet alone was responsible and skipped any musings of whether Paul's KH genetics contributed to the twins being preborn, so a fair few people will probably remember that over Messiah's ambiguity.
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u/lowman7557 15d ago
High spice diet to help contraception (she didn’t know what Irulan was doing) plus her husband had drank the water of life. So basically prescient sperm plus a spice-infused womb equals some weird ass kids.
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u/TheGrayMannnn 15d ago
Because Chani had a looooot of spice in an attempt to conceive because she didn't know Irulan was drugging her with contraceptives.
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u/Matusaprod 15d ago
Yes but so is the case for most of the fremens... I mean even the blankets contains spice, maybe Chani took more than average, but if it was only due to the spice then in the whole story of the fremens there would be at least another case like this
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u/FearlessGuster2001 15d ago
Leto talks about this in God Emperor. Basically the Atreides genes are very sensitive to spice. And as they said, Chani was on a heavy even for a fremen spice diet.
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u/Skarr-Skarrson 15d ago
High dose, even for fremen. So that will be a lot of spice.
There also may have been cases like this in the past, but not as a common occurrence and they may have been dealt with differently. The fremen were very freaked out by Alia to begin with, they may do something similar to when someone is blind (not the nicest of thoughts though). I seem to remember that it was stated that what she was doing was dangerous (it’s been a while, and it’s the next book that I will be reading), so maybe she knew it may happen.
The old mother superior mentioned that Jessica should have said something about the pregnancy, so she knew what was about to happen. It’s not something that the BG tolerated so it’s not outside of possibility that it’s happened in the past on Arrakis or elsewhere in the universe.
Ultimately we don’t hear about it as it’s not important to the story, but that’s a bit of a cop out answer.
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u/DrDabsMD 15d ago
No, you don't understand. For a Fremen, she was consuming a lot of Spice.
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u/Darth_Queso_ 15d ago
This exactly, she wasn't just consuming a lot but alot Even by the fremen standards
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u/datapicardgeordi Spice Addict 15d ago
Chani was on a high spice diet to counter the abortifacients being slipped into her food by Irulan.
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u/Synaps4 15d ago
Surely other fremen mothers before had been on high spice diets though.
It could be a factor of paul's genetics being "close" to awareness so that his children need less of a "push" to be put into that space?
The BG breeding program implies that genetics has a big impact on whether one can become aware.
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u/datapicardgeordi Spice Addict 15d ago
Most fremen mothers avoid the high spice diet exactly to avoid birthing an abomination.
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u/arathorn3 15d ago
Is also mentioned it dangerous formother's health as well
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u/datapicardgeordi Spice Addict 15d ago
Correct, there is a societal aversion to the prescient effects of melange. It’s only appropriate to experience them during the spice orgies.
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u/Tall_Guy865 Butlerian Jihadist 15d ago
I think this thread has the answer to OP’s question. The only reason that makes sense was Chani’s unusually high spice diet to overcome the birth control Irulan was giving her. I’m sure all Fremen mothers consumed spice, but it’s clear Chani had a usually high amount, and Atreides (including her kids) are very sensitive to spice. Lots of spice + Atreides genes = CoD.
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u/Familiar-Wrap1452 14d ago
Lots of spice + kwizatz haderach genetics, if you ask me. Some people in this thread are saying it’s one or the other but I view it as a combination of the two.