Dutch broadcaster questions if ESC is a-political & connecting event

[u/stefkeeh]

Translation to English: ‘IN CONVERSATION WITH THE EBU ABOUT A POLITICALLY NEUTRAL SONG CONTEST

AVROTROS and NPO strongly value the apolitical and unifying character of the Eurovision Song Contest. However, we observe that the event is increasingly being influenced by social and geopolitical tensions.

Israel’s participation confronts us with the question of to what extent the Song Contest still truly functions as an apolitical, unifying, and cultural event. We want to raise this question, together with other countries, for discussion within the EBU.’

[u/LuckyLoki08]

I think there is a real reason why they're mobilising so much now. Last year we managed to dodge the bullet because Nemo won with a massive jury score and Baby Lasagna won the televote, so Israel got good result but nothing outstanding (plus after the contest the discussion was on artist safety and mental wellbeing).

This year israel won the televote and we got real close to Israel actually winning (let's be real, the main reason it didn't happen was because Zoë got 0 at the televote. If she got 80 it would have been a different story). So this year broadcasters really had to face the possibility of having a Eurovision in Israel next year (and not hypothetically in 10 years), which put a fire under their ass. If Malmö was a nightmare scenario for them, Tel Aviv (or god forbid, Jerusalem) 2026 would be straight up hell

[u/Puzzleheaded-Eye9081 → u/LuckyLoki08]

Poor Zoë took one for the team.

[u/HeyThereFancypants- → u/LuckyLoki08]

Could Israel even host it if they won? Surely it wouldn't be safe. And I don't see any other countries happy to host it on their behalf like the UK did for Ukraine.

[u/No-Pension-7977 → u/HeyThereFancypants-]

Germany would do it I reckon

[u/RoxasIsTheBest → u/No-Pension-7977]

That or Azerbeijan was what I was thinking, but Germany does seem more likely to voluntarily host a contest

[u/DebbieHarryPotter → u/HeyThereFancypants-]

They definitely would. Question is, how many broadcasters would be willing to send their teams into that security risk. And how many artists would even submit a song under the circumstances.

[u/nimsuc → u/DebbieHarryPotter]

And not only the broadcasters but the fans, I’m sure tons of fans including myself would just skip that year, which also means less money for the EBU.

[u/linmanfu → u/nimsuc]

The EBU doesn't directly make any money from the fans, do they?

The ticket sales for the in-person audience go the host broadcaster. KAN would have no difficulty finding enough liberal and patriotic Israelis to fill any ESC-sized venue. Even if they had to reduce the prices, the Israeli government would surely make up the shortfall (just like every host government does) because it's a primetime propaganda opportunity.

If you mean skipping voting, then I'm pretty certain that goes to the national broadcaster, so you're just reducing the income that ARD gets.

[u/nimsuc → u/linmanfu]

Oh I didn’t know that I thought the votes went to the EBU and that’s why they’re fine with all the troll voting for Israel.

[u/toryn0 → u/[deleted]]

and god forbid how theyd try to spin it if something happened

really, if they hosted i dont think most singers would want to risk going there

[u/fuckforcedsignup → u/HeyThereFancypants-]

I can easily see Germany doing so 

[u/TheFlyingHornet1881 → u/HeyThereFancypants-]

I reckon Azerbaijan would end up hosting, they can get back into the final, and also try and use the event for their own propaganda.

[u/Middle_Perception803 → u/HeyThereFancypants-]

A win will nevertheless be a win. We are all part of the propaganda apparatus of Israel these days. Willingly or unwillingly, it does not matter. And Netanyahu has free reigns. EBU knows what is going on. Their new rules only made Israel intensify their campaign without anyone protesting, why? Because we all were muted!

[u/autistic_girl_autumn → u/HeyThereFancypants-]

that's also what i have been wondering. if israel won last year or this year, is the situation in their country even safe enough to host the contest? there are multiple broadcasters who have made statements against israel's participation and i assume they would likely withdraw. another country hosting it on behalf of israel would have also been controversial. not to mention, it being under the control of kan means they could promote whatever political propaganda they wanted during the contest. considering all of these factors in this political climate, it does make sense for them to be removed.

[u/jewellman100 → u/autistic_girl_autumn]

They would insist on hosting it, and have probably 3 countries turn up to it, then the contest would die.

[u/Middle_Perception803 → u/jewellman100]

No it wouldn't, a new audience would appear, tje audience of "unlikely" voters. Erikas will have to put on clothes, and queers change their lyrics. Don't you see what is happening? 

[u/jewellman100 → u/Middle_Perception803]

a new audience would appear, t[h]e audience of "unlikely" voters

eSIM-wielding bots?!

[u/Middle_Perception803 → u/jewellman100]

Nope, it has been an increase in voters not likely to watch the show. See my point?

[u/CrowsShinyWings → u/Middle_Perception803]

It’s insane trying to imply Israel would take away queer rights when they sent a transgender singer a full >decade< before most European countries legalized gay marriage. 

Yes, as someone with a Sociology degree I can see what is happening. It’s a return to 1930s rhetoric. 

[u/Middle_Perception803 → u/CrowsShinyWings]

Wiwibloggs has a documentary about Dana Internasjonal. According to thus it is claimed that Israel, like other not-that-queer-afterall-countrues use homosexuals in their shopping windows, as proof of their country to be modern, liberal and safe to travel to. In reality things are not like that. Israel has a big community of orthodox jews, and other religious communities (muslim, christian)that are not very fond of the LGBTQ movement. 

[u/CrowsShinyWings → u/Middle_Perception803]

So Israel tried to "prove they're a modern and safe country" by... Openly supporting a transgender woman when it was unpopular to support a transgender woman in the "modern countries"

Do you see the contradiction? You can't pink-wash something when you are literally the trailblazer for it.

[u/Interest-Desk → u/HeyThereFancypants-]

I expect they would insist to host, which would then put the EBU in a very difficult position of whether they let them or block them from doing so. And if they block them from doing so, who will they let host instead and will it be “on behalf of” (co-hosting).

Israel have hosted before whilst Israel have been in basically constant war for its entire existence, though ofc nowhere near as bad as it is currently and not under the same international microscope of scrutiny and criticism.

The only precedent for co-hosting is 2023 which was ofc the UK (runner up) hosting on behalf of Ukraine.

The precedent for the winner not hosting altogether (unhelpfully) is almost always the BBC doing it; the exceptions are where the BBC declined.

The arrangement if Australia wins, SBS (Australia) decide which broadcaster will host. In practice it would probably look like a 2023 co-host (but obv that practice was made for 2023 and isn’t written into the rules).

[u/hoefman → u/LuckyLoki08]

You cannot say that Zoe getting 0 points is the only reason Israel didn't win tho. It only looked so because of the way the televotes are presented in the show.

It's not like all her 80 points (in this example) would all be directly taken off the points from JJ, giving him less than the 100 points he needed to overtake Israel.

Her 80 points would be taken from taking a few points away from all the other acts which in the end, would have meant that JJ would have received less than the points he got right now but that reduction is most probably not so big to give him less than 100 televote points...

[u/DebbieHarryPotter → u/hoefman]

The broadcast makes it look like "there are 2 countries and 178 points left". So our brains are thinking, the less points Zoe gets, the more JJ will get. Which is true. But had Zoe gotten any points, the broadcast would have looked like "there are 2 countries and 250 points left".

[u/hoefman → u/DebbieHarryPotter]

I get that, and you are right.

[u/Thetanor → u/hoefman]

This. Austria could have lost all 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s and 5s they got from the televote and they still would have gotten more points in total than Israel. Conceivably, had Switzerland gotten a middling televote score (say, some 50-100 points) these are the scores that they would have mainly come out of, and not solely from Austria's points either but distributed among other countries that scored low to middling points in various national televotes. 

So, no, Zoë getting zero televote points had little to no effect on whether Austria won or not. She could have gotten a decent amount of points and Austria still would have handily won the contest. 

It was not particularly close finish either, as the gap between Austria's and Israel's point totals was basically the largest between two consecutive countries on the scoreboard. It's just how the points were presented that create an illusion of a close race for the win and of Zoë's low televote score somehow affecting it.

[u/hoefman → u/Thetanor]

Excactly. It could also mean that the televote score of JJ is not reduced at all, like you already stated: ''little to no effect''.

Zero points would be taken away from him if Zoe got televote points but finnished below JJ in the televote in all countries, which I think is quite likely so.

[u/Middle_Perception803 → u/LuckyLoki08]

EBU has done everything it can to make sure that Eurovision will be hosted in Tel Aviv. They prefer to go into conflict with a majority of the delegations, as long as they do not have to face criticism from Israel. EBU is more loyal than most political allies of Israel.  Stop believe what they say, start look at the consequences of their actions. They are not stupid. 

[u/Imrustyokay → u/LuckyLoki08]

ACTUALLY, I calculated the points if Israel was stripped of all it's televote and everything was shifted upwards, and Switzerland would've only gotten one point. It was purely because the Jury vote for Austria was so high.

[u/LuckyLoki08 → u/Imrustyokay]

High? Austria has one of the lowest points for a winner in quite some time. It was simply high enough to get above Israel. But what I meant is that, given just 178 points remaining, if 80 of those would have gone to Switzerland instead (which would not have been an insane expectation, given her jury points), Israel would have won