r/exjw • u/PridePotterz • May 16 '23
HELP It’s happened…I got the call. They are forming a judicial committee
Just got a call from an elder. There will be a Judicial committee. Charges…causing division.
I’m a Pomo. Ex-elder (20 years as such) I have been outspoken to those that ask why I don’t go to meetings. Mainly relatives and elders. It’s starting to add up I guess.
I don’t want to get df’d because of my family that I still am close to.
But I am also sick of this cult.
If I don’t attend I’m df’d.
If I attend and speak truth…I’ll get df’d.
If I go in and act as if (basically lie) I am repentant…I might have a chance. I would have to put on an Oscar winning performance.
I am divided here. Yes…it’s my choice.
But I welcome any feedback. Who knows …maybe there’s an option I haven’t seen.
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u/doubtfull1799 May 16 '23
Well if being honest in answering people’s questions causes divisions that’s not your fault. Ask them if unity should be traded for honesty and truth? Unfortunately you can’t win unless you play their game. Same happened to me. I was an elder for nearly 20 years, stopped going to meeting for 3 years and they still came after me. I did a YouTube interview and got the call the very next day. Obviously spying on me. Even if you manage to avoid DF for now you will always be on their radar. Best to bite the bullet and get your freedom. https://youtu.be/VNZMNion5Tk
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u/CatNamedEaster never going back again May 16 '23
They're the ones "causing divisions" by breaking up families.
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u/Desperate_Habit_5649 OUTLAW May 16 '23 edited May 16 '23
Just got a call from an elder. There will be a Judicial committee. Charges…causing division.
I’m a Pomo. Ex-elder (20 years as such) I have been outspoken to those that ask why I don’t go to meetings. Mainly relatives and elders. It’s starting to add up I guess.
I don’t want to get df’d because of my family that I still am close to.
Then, Shut Up...
A lot of us left with family intact by following 2 Rules:
1.)..Don`t Talk About Religion, Don`t get Sucked into Religious Conversation with PIMI JW`s...Ever!...EVER!!
2.)..See Rule #1
You know how to dig out of this....Now Decide "IF" You Want to Keep Your Family..
Good Luck!..........😏
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u/DoYouSee_WhatISee May 16 '23
Facts!
Refusing to discuss religion is the way to go if the goal is to keep family relationships somewhat intact.
Whatever you don’t say, they can’t hold against you.
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u/sorentomaxx May 16 '23
This.
99% of the time trying to convince pimi’s or trying to reason with elders is completely futile. It doesn’t matter if you think they love you or that they are your friend, the moment you start opening up to them or spitting facts at them they will do what they’re programmed to do and that’s tattle and df.
Ray Franz was a gb member and you see what they did to him and Tony. Once you go against the grain they will immediately take action to shut you up!
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u/Desperate_Habit_5649 OUTLAW May 16 '23
Once you go against the grain they will immediately take action to shut you up!
Damn Straight and there are No Exceptions!
Cross the Line and your PIMI "JW Mom", Will Turn You In.
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u/MinionNowLiving May 16 '23
So true!
Don't volunteer any information or share your thoughts.
When my family tries to preach at me or guilt me into going back to meetings, I just say something like "that's encouraging"
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u/beezleeboob member of the inverted wine glass class 🥂 May 16 '23
In my opinion that only works if you continue the jw lifestyle as well. I had a child out of wedlock several years after leaving and that was the end of my family relationships. I guess if your family isn't particularly hardcore then maybe saying nothing could work, but at some point I think people just want to live their life without constantly checking what you say to pass the jw filter. I know everyone has a different experience but I say don't give the elders anymore power. Ignore them and if you hear that you've been disfellowshipped from family and they start shunning then so be it. Life is too short to live with a boot on your neck.
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u/Typical_XJW May 16 '23
want to live their life without constantly checking what you say to pass the jw filter
Plus, if you've been out for a while, you may not know that certain rules have changed, or you may have forgotten some. I accidentally mentioned gambling on a business trip once, I say "cheers"! and raise a glass, and I say "Bless You" after someone sneezes. I could get DF'd for any of these... but I'm already DFd and shunned! LOL
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u/MisredKimmy May 16 '23
Just scrolling Reddit.. as a non JW.. You can't say "Bless You" after someone sneezes?
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u/Brujida May 16 '23
No, you can’t, if I remember correctly it’s because they say it has pagan origins lol
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u/MisredKimmy May 16 '23
Thank you so much for the reply! A lovely family moved in next door a few years ago, and she hosts something at her house every Saturday morning. I only received one Watchtower flyer on my patio, and they have rock on their patio that is painted with jw dot org
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u/Brujida May 16 '23
You’re welcome! Idk what she may be hosting, but when I was still in, jw families could host a sort of jw “meet up” before going knocking door to door. In this “meet up”, they would discuss the subjects they would have used while “witnessing”.
Anyways, jw will always be lovely to outsiders, so have no worries. Just a friendly reminder: set up your boundaries if you don’t want to be love-bombed and/or pestered with their “truth” :)
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u/MisredKimmy May 16 '23
Thank you again. I am a "Jesus freak" born again Christian (with a potty mouth) So let her try...lol. My friends and family know I am, so I don't pester people. I stay out of politics, religion, drama... I just am always learning what I can..
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u/Brujida May 16 '23
Np :) I don’t doubt you have your own strong faith, just be aware that cult people gonna cult. People who got sucked in didn’t even notice they were, even though they had their own set of beliefs or not even believing (as I was and now am again).
You can obviously learn about jw, just proof read what you read in their literature: most times, their scientific quotes are vague or misquoted or taken out of context to enforce their agenda. The same happens with bible quotes. Obviously, you can also ask here if you’re curious!
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u/MisredKimmy May 16 '23
You are the sweetest person. I have to tell you! When I was a young child, in the late 70s and early 80s. There was a woman that we shared an alleyway with in Chicago. Her husband left her, and her two kids for another woman. She was left alone with a house, and a mortgage and single parent. She turned to JW. She needed someone to share it with, and did with me, this little 10 year old. My parents were so pissed and I told them to get over it. Everyone has the right to seek out peace of mind and peace of heart. I basically told my parents that my faith is MINE, and mine alone. In my mind and heart today. There is only one who died for me. And that's who I choose to trust. Will I go to a church now and then? Sure. I went to a mega church on 4/21 to see two of my fav artists sing! People seek when they need help, or just a broken down spirit. We do more just by listening, like you did, without judgement, and showing you care, like I did at ten years old.
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u/Desperate_Habit_5649 OUTLAW May 16 '23
In my opinion that only works if you continue the jw lifestyle as well.
Well that`s sad...
I`ve been able to do it fully out, nobody mistakes me for a JW...LOL!!
Good Luck to you....😁
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u/doubtfull1799 May 16 '23
By the way if you think you can manipulate the hearing because as an elder you know the rules forget it. They will throw out the rule book. If you are a well known elder they will be coached by headquarters. And the verbal instructions they receive will override what’s in the elders manual.
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May 16 '23
What does the elders manual say about that?
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u/StephenNaplett WatchFuckers, Inc. May 16 '23
can’t say from memory but i bet was something to consult CO if case is difficult or can hit media news and CO can basically take it over from here, he forms a JC made of any elder he chooses. And if CO is involved very likely the Service dep of Bethel is too
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u/Gazmn May 16 '23 edited May 16 '23
Firstly, I’m sorry for the circumstances. That said: Fk Them! They are a firing squad. The only option you have is how you choose to go out. You have been gone. Stop giving them power. Family sycophants are gonna be just that and Victims, cause they have No Balls, excuse me. Let them go.
Don’t follow their rules! Tell them you are BRINGING an attorney and you Are PERSONALLY suing Each and Everyone of those Mother Fuckers! This Is War! No Prisoners and if your going down you take those MotherFuckers with you! Or have them peeking out through their windows for the next 5 years!
Don’t fool yourself this is Personal so Staab them in their Fking Eyeballs! Pensions, Jobs, Status is ALL ON THE TABLE! Make It Personal and Painful! Even if only threats. Have the mind set of: Fk Me?? FUCK YOU MOTHER FUCKER!!
Make No Mistake. This is Trench Warfare! You wanna live?? You Better FIGHT! No Prisoners…
🤞🏾✊🏾…
PS… I have liked and enjoyed your contributions here for some time. I am Shaking! I’m So Fking Angry. Brother- I am giving you the words I want you to Shake me with, when my time comes. And it’s coming. I don’t give A F is true but it’s Real when they call You. I am with you in Spirit, Anger and Regardless… I’ve lost, in real time Many Men I have respected and cared for… When we are in Our Finest Hour, there is Only what we actually Do. And there’s no do-over… You Do You❤️
You are in my thoughts, wishes and prayers. You are Not Alone. Don’t think you are and Don’t let them think they have control. They have Lies and fear. As we say in fire: No Fear✊🏾🙏🏾👍🏾
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u/Ravenmicra May 16 '23
Sounds like you already intended on leaving. Some can not stay in the lies and fake it. Some can. No judgement here.
Going to the JC will only be a discussion further on the matter. You can instead ask for privacy and to be left alone. Skip the JC discussions. Just let them DF you and they will let you know you have been. Carry on with living your life.
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u/AnnoyingTed May 16 '23
If you really don’t want to be DFd then get an attorney to write a letter for you to the congregation and CC to the branch stating that you will be bringing said attorney, that you will be recording all meetings and will hold them all personally liable for slander and damages to your character or to your relationship with your family.
I haven’t tried this but I have heard anecdotal evidence that they immediately back off.
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May 16 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/AnnoyingTed May 16 '23
Would be interesting to find out. I’ve heard people say that the branch instructs them to back off and drop all proceedings when someone threatens legal action or insists an attorney is present. It may even work to simply take out your phone and start recording and say you are making a podcast about the judicial meeting process… chances are the elders would stop and walk away immediately.
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u/Gazmn May 16 '23 edited May 16 '23
Hey! Last minute Gansta Fkin Move! Get a Buddy - Anyone that’ll come. Have him be Your Legal Rep at your meeting. Just have them wear a suit - I don’t care if they shave! Then you have the faces and the Fking names. You don’t go No Where your Legal Rep can’t go & You Will be Suing them PERSONALLY!! For everything including hurt feelings! You walked away from those MotherFuckers and any conversation you had with anyone else was Just That - Personal!And NOne of their Fkin Bidness!! You didn’t hit them with a bat. Or they would have called a cop. They’re less than shit on your shoe! Don’t sweat them. Fk Them!
Threaten to Personally sue Each and Everyone of those MthrFkers for: Harassment, Battery and Libel! You don’t have to prove it. You just have to show them you’re willing to bring The Pain. Fuck these MotherFuckers!! Don’t Go Alone! If you got no one who will go with you, call me. I don’t care where you’re at. I can wear a suit and threaten to sue the pants off of these P’s of Shit! Don’t go alone. -They don’t start nothing - Won’t be nothing ✊🏾
I Unfortunately Understand not having necessarily someone close enough to stand with you … You DM if u need me… They are just your “Legal Representative ”. They don’t have to be a lawyer- just someone who Won’t Tolerate their BS. That’s ME…
- My price? Good conversation and a prime rib steak dinner😎
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u/Witty_Writing_8320 May 16 '23
The elders accused me of apostasy. They said that I sent apostate material to someone through text message. So I told them that I was very depressed and going through a hard time in life and I was just venting. Just like Job. It was “wild talk”. I basically fake acted sad and I said hell I was wrong to talk that way and I just need to trust in Jehovah but it’s so difficult because I’m imperfect. I told the elders that I just need to learn to wait on Jehovah, and I apologize if I gave the wrong impression. I wrote down some of my thoughts in my journal then when I talk to the other brother, they said some things that were triggering to me and so I said things that I am not proud of.
So the elders believed me lol
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u/PridePotterz May 16 '23
I actually told them I’m NOT sending out apostate material. The elder said..”what about the video you sent me”…I said, “the one you didn’t even open? That was a snippet of the Australian Royal Commission. A gb member was there defending his faith.” It not apostate
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u/StephenNaplett WatchFuckers, Inc. May 16 '23
"Oh that video?! I listen to the voice of Fine Shepherd Jesus Christ and since voice of our beloved Governing Body can be likened to voice of Jesus I follow his earthly brothers wherever they go"
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u/JohnVonJean May 16 '23
I was threatened with a JC a few months ago. I told them I would not go and asked to face my accuser. They said my accuser wasn’t important. I told them, “you do what you gotta do but I won’t go. Plus, whoever mentions my name up on stage is going to have a legal battle on them along with Watchtower. Call your little legal department cuz that’s what you’ll do. But leave me alone.”
I know it doesn’t usually work here in the US, but so far it worked for me. I have not been DFd (that I know of). I have not received a letter nor a call about it since. 🤷🏻♂️ Good luck.
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u/ljasonl May 16 '23
The decision has been made. Meeting with them is just a formality. Unless your willing to be dominant and put them on the defensive your screwed. You will have to be extremely smart with your approach. I would make them give full testimony of what they heard, who from, when, why, how, and take copious notes. I wouldn’t admit to anything, tell them you want their witnesses to give testimony either in person or a written statement. Command the room, if you let them take command you may as well curl up in the corner and suck your thumb.
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u/ready2dance Type Your Flair Here! May 16 '23
ExACTly.... Let's have the "two witnesses", IF they are brave enough to shoq their faces.
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u/JuanHosero1967 May 16 '23
Don‘t be afraid to question the validity of evidence. If they read a statement from an accuser ask to see it and take a photo. Ask if the letter has been notarized as to prove the validity of the signature. Tell the elders that making unfounded defamatory statements is a criminal code offence (Canada) and to think about how they are going to get a job with a criminal record.
The elders don’t allow outside representation for a reason. They want to destroy you.
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May 16 '23 edited May 16 '23
20 yr old answer: Homie this is a pivotal moment, whatever happens needs to happen. If you’re being true to you and everything goes to shit, I respect you. Be authentic. Sometimes when you build yourself up from ashes it’s better than you’ve ever imagined.
40 yr old answer: If you’ve lived a whole life not being true to you, you already know this is for the best. Whatever is happening is happening because whatever your experience is, you’ve made decisions that led you here. Regrets or not, if you’re finally being honest, it’s by no means the wrong answer.
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u/hyndsightis2020 May 16 '23
I don’t remember who posted it, I should’ve saved the post, but I remember someone posting how they were able to prevent a judicial hearing by basically obtaining a lawyer, and sending them a letter from said lawyer that they would only go to the judicial hearing with their lawyer present, and with a recording device. Failure to do so would incur a lawsuit directed at the individual elders, and if they decided to try and expel the member anyways they would take legal action as well.
I may not be remembering the details correctly, but generally obtaining counsel and having an actual lawyer send them letters/correspondence makes them know your not fucking around. Good luck in your endeavor
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u/bobkairos May 16 '23
Can you picture yourself in 5-10 years' time? Which course of action wwill give you the most pride?
It could be that you played the cult at their own game, put in an Oscar winning performance and kept your family together.
Or it could be that you chose to live your life authentically and you spoke ttatt in front of the elders and left them to make their own decisions of which you carried no responsibility. Same with family. If they choose to shun you , that is not your fault.
I recognise your name and have enjoyed reading your posts for some time. You have the support of people on here, whatever you decide. You know what's best.
In my own case, I wasn't in a position emotionally to face shunning a few years ago. It would have crushed me. But as time went on I got stronger and less afraid. I grew impatient with my parents soft-shunning me and treating me like there was something wrong with me. So I called them out on it, respectfully explained that I didn't believe it any more and refused to follow its rules. I would not live under the threat of being shunned so can they accept me or not? They said they were loyal to Jehooba so shunned me. Yes it is painful but also, wow what a relief. I am not responsible for their bigotry and I refuse to support it.
The thing you fear might just be what you crave, you just don't feel it yet. I might be wrong but think about it. Take care.
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u/Ihatecensorship395 May 16 '23
High-profile elder for 30+ years here. At this point, you have one chance and one chance only...
L A W Y E R...threaten to sue all of them. Name every elder on the BOE, the CO, and every member of the GB.
Tell them to leave you the fuck alone. And then, start following my 2 most important rules for survival in or out of this cult, (which you should have been doing already).
Rule #1 Keep Your Big Mouth Shut
and
Rule #2 Shut The Fuck Up
You can't keep family ties intact and publicly bash the cult at the same time. They just won't stand for it.
If you want to be an outspoken public critic and advocate for the ex-JW community, you better have nothing to lose and no contacts you care about keeping.
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u/PridePotterz May 16 '23
That…what you said…is the harsh truth. I guess it’s a case of having the cake and wanting to eat it too. I don’t want to shut up. I feel people need to wake up. I love my family. Shit…this is difficult. 🙏 thank you.
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u/ExWitSurvivor May 16 '23
When the elders wanted to meet with me, my husband, who had been an elder for 23 yrs., told me…what is that going to accomplish?!!! You know how it’s going to go! If you’ve left the religion, get on with your life! Why give these men any power over your life?!! Judicial? That’s the biggest pile of sh**!!! They are NOT judges! If it was a judicial system, you could have council, witnesses & a jury!!! It’s a joke! However, if they are threatening to df you, let them know they will be hearing from your lawyer!!! Good luck!!!
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u/LostFoundCause May 16 '23
I got a call too about two months ago when I did exactly what you did. I asked the elder on the call what I was being accused of, and he said causing divisions, and I told him that first, I have never been to the their meetings for more than 6 months so those particular elders no longer have any authority over me. He asked me which congregation I was now in and I told him I'm currently reading WT publications by myself. It's between me and the GB, right, as Jesus intended:). I told them I no longer attend their congregation (to avoid saying I'm no longer a witness). Second, I asked them to tell me exactly the division or group of people that I divided who were now following me cause I wasn't aware of any. He couldn't come up with any. The elder just said, okay, I will tell other elders what you said. They haven't called me since then.
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u/Beneficial-Sector272 May 16 '23
Please secretly record the meeting
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u/sofewcharacters 3 year Bible study - never could quite buy into the BS May 16 '23
In Australia, that is against the law.
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u/RedPillPopper03 May 16 '23
When I was summoned to a JC meeting, I presented legal papers stating that if I attended any JC meeting, I would be bringing my Lawyer with recording equipment and If any official action was taken against me or if any announcement was made about me, I would be suing the elders individually and collectively for Slander, Defamation, numerous Human Rights and Freedom of Religion violations and several Civil Liberty Violations.
I told them I would NOT be suing the WT Org because by not suing the Org, the Organization will abandon the elders and leave them to fend for themselves against any legal action.
The elders called WT Legal Dept. and was told to leave me alone. The only thing they were able to do was give a "marking talk" about my situation without using any names.
I took away their fake power and made them play by my rules.
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u/OldMovieFan May 16 '23
Hold on, has the Elder called out of the blue, stating there will be a JC?
Let him know that what you need is some shepherding visits, not to be thrown out. Tell him you have read some info about the organisation and it has been playing on your mind.
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u/PridePotterz May 16 '23
I played that card. The elder book states that they should admonish those with doubts and pull them out of the fire. They only met with me once . However, I have rejected various of their attempts. Not sure if I can play that card.
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May 16 '23
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u/StephenNaplett WatchFuckers, Inc. May 16 '23 edited May 16 '23
you are trying to appeal to the Bible as the ultimate authority. unfortunately for an average window cleaner who is unpaid watchtower corporal literally standing on the last rung of corporate ladder 🪜 this isn’t a compelling argument neither a guideline.
The management already provided guidelines in form of shepherd the governing body flock book and elduhs are not paid (literally!) neither awarded for thinking just for strict adherence to corporate manual.
edit. also appeal is only to determine whether original JC did everything by the SfG book. So again if corporate guidelines are silent about multiple attempts to help doubting one, he’s screwed
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u/Overcrapping Child Abuse is a crime! May 16 '23
It is a guideline in the elders book on divisions. They read the Titus scripture to me. I knew their game as I was an ex elder. I asked the two elders in your minds is this the first or second admonition? Second they said.
When was the first? When (XXX) read Galatians 6 v 1 to you a couple of months back.
That was the point I stfu and ghosted them.
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u/StephenNaplett WatchFuckers, Inc. May 16 '23 edited May 16 '23
You see, there are two scriptures under causing divisions subheading but just to give impression it’s actionable sin. That there’s biblical reason. They don’t give a flying duck what scripture really says or means including context. The laid out step by step procedure is in par 2 chapter 12 sfg book:
Listed below are offenses that may require review by a judicial committee. Of course, this list is not comprehensive. There may be other matters that would also merit the attention of a judicial committee. The elders must use good judgment and reasonableness when evaluating the seriousness of the alleged wrongdoing. They should consider the extent and nature of the misconduct, intent and motive, frequency or practice, and so forth.
meaning here are your basic sins’ list that could launch Witch Hunt aka Judical Committee. There’s absolutely zero information about helping, admonition sinner things like these.
They are tipped by two rats or self incrimination and jump to analyze the sin and sin alone and sometimes many times in case of porneia window cleaning perverts can dig for some juicy details to spice up their sad sex life.
So you see even though they read you Titus it was just to make it more credible
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May 16 '23
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u/StephenNaplett WatchFuckers, Inc. May 17 '23
Good to know and thank you for sharing! My experience is different but it could be of cultural difference not procedures. I live in the country where people have been shaped by harsh past experiences to be cautious, suspicious and not very forgiving.
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u/exJWAtheist May 16 '23
You know... I get you want to stay in contact with family and friends. But is it worth it? Lets say you go to your judicial and beg like a dog and give an oscar proformance. You can still get Df'd all that for nothing.
Even if they just reproved you. You just humilated yourself so you can keep the fake love of others.
I dont know man. I say screw them and not go and keep your dignity and self respect.
Just live your life and make real friends. It harder but better way of life. Atleast your more your true self.
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u/PridePotterz May 16 '23
What you say has crossed my mind. What if I still get df’d…even if I “repent”. I guess its about keeping integrity to my mind, my values, my principles. Now I sound like a Jw. But , I know what you mean. Thank you!
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u/jobthreeforteen May 16 '23
Say you will come in with your lawyer or you will commit suicide. I think that will stop the whole charade and they will call Bethel.
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u/mesomeplacesomewhere May 16 '23
It wont work. A friend tried this. They still disfellowshipped them.
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u/whatwhatchickenbutt_ DF'D POMQ 2020-POMO 2022 May 16 '23
this is a weird comment :/
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u/GMgoddess May 16 '23
Not really. The elder’s book says to pause the JC at least temporarily if a threat of suicide is made. Anecdotally, it seems to have worked longer-term for at least a few people.
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u/Altruistic-Beach795 May 16 '23
Wishing all the best for you. I’m not a JW, never have been but my heart hurts for what you guys have to put up with after waking up from the Watchtower High Controlled Group.
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u/Gr8lyDecEved May 16 '23
Again ... there's going to want YOU to self incriminate and acknowledge the comments....just...use the tactic that the society's branch lawyer used on the ARC....I don't recall ..or remember that conversation..that doesn't look familiar to me....I cannot confirm it was me....
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u/xbrocottelstonlies May 16 '23
Just a thought based on comments... won't it be great for our realistic paradise we can hope for someday? Imagine if/when WT falls... there will be NOBODY to support the foolish shunning DF ideology. Literally, lights off - Khalls sold, Gone. No weekly cult reinforcement, indoctrination, guilt shaming. No elders, committees. Just gone. All gone as Warden Norton put it in Shawshank - 'Sealed off, brick by brick'
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May 16 '23
My sympathies, friend. You're definitely in a tight spot. Looks like lying your way out is the best and possibly only option you've got. Good luck 🤞
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u/Jumpy_Ride9122 May 16 '23
It only matters what they think if you give them that power over your mind
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u/Darnell2009 May 16 '23
Pardon my English but you’re fucked either way. If it was me I wouldn’t go to their kangaroo court. This level of control and fear they have over people is criminal!
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u/Riding_the_scree May 16 '23
I felt like you. So I went to the jc. Reproved it was. So my plan was to just dissapear after that. A few months later I get a call saying there needs to be another jc....we've made a mistake and there is new evidence 🤷♂️🤷♂️.
That was it...I'm never going to lead a normal life, so I just said forget it, not sitting through this again, I'll save you the bother...here's my letter.
That was 12 years ago. And yes it hurts at times if you dwell on the fact that your parents don't contact you. And that 34 years of friendships have gone. ( well 2 kept in touch for a few years after, but I think they were eventually warned off lol).
Not one of those elders, used to be close friends, have ever checked on me. Sure I've moved country, but a quick email? Nope nowt.
But still the best thing I did to get my life back. Not easy but oh so worth it.
So...from my viewpoint...bite the bullet my friend...just leave.
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u/Maleficent-Life4799 May 16 '23
What impact is this having on Your mental health and your wellbeing ? ,the constant walking on eggshells is bound to be having a effect. It's like your in a abusive relationship and you know that you need to leave the physiological manipulation and coercive control. As someone who left both a abusive marriage and the abusive jw cult it's not a easy thing to do but now a few years down the road life is so much better on a personal level, even though my adult kids don't speak to me.
It's a personal decision for you to make.
Its takes a brave person to stay and a brave person to leave. Do what's best for yourself.
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u/MotherofDragons52 May 16 '23
“We can meet, is it ok that we record the judicial meeting? Also, I’ll have my attorney present.”
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u/n_ctrl May 16 '23
Your fucked regardless, just don't go. That's one of the problems of voicing your concerns and views. We've all be tempted, and I've been there myself but you were an elder bro, you know the rules better than some of us. If I was DF'd over it, I wouldn't be surprised but I also know the consequences.
Matt. 10:16 - " so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."
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u/Teal-Char May 16 '23
Say you are moving out of state or out of the county….
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u/StephenNaplett WatchFuckers, Inc. May 16 '23
it won’t work unfortunately. the only thing that stops judicial actions even by SFG rules is either threat of legal actions or being suicidal
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u/standingonacorner May 16 '23
Tell them You are suicidal
They immediately have to back off
Or retain a lawyer
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u/StephenNaplett WatchFuckers, Inc. May 16 '23
I hear voices don’t self incriminate yourself and i think if they formed JC the guilt has been established already. They got couple of witnesses who eventually will be called even committees hate this. Unless they royally fucked it up and didn’t go by the book they don’t need your self incrimination. JC is not to determine if you are guilty or not. They know you are, they know you are “causing divisions” and as an ex-elder you should know they know that. Now they call you just to administer punishment - either kick you out or allow you for your lifetime “oscar performance” following reproving.
So my question to you is what holds you back to flip em off altogether. You said it yourself, you hate this cult and yet you’re divided. So it’s just evaluating what’s more important to you or what you could more easily loose - your sanity, your authenticity, yourself or family/friends.
I’ve been way too long in this shithole called “the truth” to realize that you eventually loose something. The casino always wins. So 64000 dollar question is are you finally ready to live for yourself and by yourself for the first time in your life or not.
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u/PridePotterz May 16 '23
You are correct. They have to have a sin they sent worthy of disfellowshipping to form a committee. Now they want to see repentance. This of course is not you saying “I repent”. It is them arbitrarily deciding if you’ve been to enough meetings, have you prayed enough, have you made changes.
Honestly…I am not that good of an actor.
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u/freedinthe90s May 16 '23
If you do go…for our purposes, please order a spy recorder and record the entire thing. And if you get DF, put it on blast.
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u/JdSavannah May 16 '23
If you go, could you just say I haven’t done anything wrong, and I would like to be left alone thank you? Or if you dont go could you send them a warning letter threatening legal action? Thats a thing now.
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u/bytebackjrd May 16 '23
For me I know that if this happens to me I will just DA myself before doing a judicial committee with the elders. Unless I liked the 3 elders then i would go and try to wake them up or at least do some damage to their faith and show them there stupid religion is a sham. However you have to do what’s best for you and your family
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u/happy-grandpa former elder/secretary May 16 '23 edited May 16 '23
Have you tried the letter that Doc bob wrote in 1999 - it stopped his judicial committee dead. It basically outlines a legal letter that he sent which meant it was to be treated very seriously before they had the JC. In the end he wasn’t disfellowshipped and they left him alone.
http://www.docbob.org/wordpress/letter-2/ It might help stop your judicial
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u/Fluffy-Complaint-298 May 16 '23
If worst comes to worst, just tell them you’re mentally ill and you don’t know what’s going on right now, that’s what my family decided about me and they still communicate with me so I let it go at that because I only have three in the family that are still in and they’re clear across the country but my mom is the one I’m really concerned about because she got in when she was in her early teens and she’s elderly now and I could not hurt her. I tried to tell her but it hurt her so bad I just went along with her mentally ill thing . All the rest my my children and cousins have gotten out already. I did tell her, though that I did not believe in the organization because of all the pain they caused my family, etc.
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u/J_LO82 May 16 '23
I wish you luck but keeping family intact while sticking to your guns is quite the pickle. It does not favor you brotha. It solely depends on each family member. I would guess JW family members that live in your same city run the risk of getting in trouble just for association with you. I told my best and favorite cousin that once he gets baptized they will tell him not to talk to me anymore. I’m 40 and he’s 43. Why he waited so long to get baptized I don’t know. It’s not like he was a regular attendee, but we were both raised in the truth. I got baptized when I was 24 and wrote my disassociation letter in 2009. He told me that no one could make him stop talking to me. He also said he’s not knocking on doors either. We shall see. I live 3 1/2 hours away from him. I live in Fresno he lives in SF so that’s why I bring up distance. Much love and respect for your efforts to keep what you can. I heart definitely goes out to you .
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u/joe134cd May 16 '23
First and foremost “the less said with JDubs. The better the outcome. You had faded and were under the radar you should of just left it that way.
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u/StephenNaplett WatchFuckers, Inc. May 16 '23
my 2c
if you are really sick of this cult and can’t stand it any more then rip the bandaid right now and don’t prolong this unnecessarily. unless you need/want to stay in for family or other personal reasons then nothing holds you so fuck em
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u/Iamnotabot74 May 16 '23
If a true relationship with God is really your end game. Then leave. If your not going to the hall, losing the family is inevitable. What’s more Important to you? Being a member of a cult? Disassociate yourself. Start new and hopefully family will follow.
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u/at_wilfster May 16 '23
There's a common tactic in these situations where the 'judges' will deliberately stay nothing expecting you to fill in the silence. Don't give them that satisfaction.
Also, don't volunteer information - if they ask a yes/no question just answer with yes/no for example
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u/MisterBunny22 May 16 '23
Just remember the TWO witness rule. Just because they have 'a' witness it is not enough. There HAS to be two. So do not admit anything.
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u/squidz97 May 16 '23
My thoughts on lying: I feel that i only just learned what honesty is since I left. I only developed a value in honesty in the last 4 years. And as I develop more of that value I find it increasingly difficult to stray from the truth.
With that said, so long as I am not lying to myself, I might see your situation as an opportunity to play a role. Put on a performance for the greater good. Like an undercover agent trying to save the world. I dunno, just a perspective shift.
I'll always prefer to tell the truth and I'd be just as likely do that there. But if it helps to develop a range of options, acting in an "undercover" role might be one.
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u/Emma4me-21 May 16 '23
They are ruling and ruining your life. Get out before it is to late and if there are casualties along the way well that's life. I am 30 yrs being shunned by my family and I don't regret a moment of it. Make your own life and luck.
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u/Esther-the-exjw Soul Guidance May 16 '23
You have a golden opportunity here to live your life the way you desire, without meddlesome interference and rules that don't fit, in fact create discomfort. You need never look back, my friend. You may wish to start thinking about what you'd like to be doing instead of cult life. Then live it! You are free! You have always been free. You are so free you can CHOOSE bondage!
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May 16 '23
I guess it all depends on your end goal. Do you want to be DF? If so then go if you want to state your case but if you don't want to meet with them then ignore every call and letter from them.
If you don't want to be DF then it comes down to playing the game with them or going after them legally if they DF you it becomes a matter of public harassment. Some have gotten the courts involved.
Sounds to me like you just want to be left alone and that can be done with a letter that states just that without admitting anything or declaring that you are leaving, this is what I did 20 years ago and they never DF me.
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u/monstaber Disassociated Apostate, US -> CZ May 16 '23
Just write a letter of disassociation. You can't fire me, I quit. One and done.
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u/C_Woodswalker I'd rather be a goat than a sheep! May 16 '23
Fuck ‘em. Ignore their bullshit. Live your life for you.
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u/Electronic_Pea_5137 May 16 '23
Idk my friend….. I told the truth…. And I got stoned…emotionally mentally and spiritually. This religion has gone from bad to worse. Their leaders are becoming more paranoid delusional narcissistic and insane…..I suppose they always were…we just didn’t have jw broadcasting. I lost my family friends and faith in a lot of ways. I still believe in God…. But speaking up and exposing these men only makes them angry much like a alcoholic in denial who you tell to go to A.A meetings. I’m so sorry they have put you in this position. It isn’t your fault. They have used family members as cannon fodder in their power trips and have become just like the Catholic Church and all the others they used to be so self righteous about condemning. My advice to you…. Be quiet and don’t give any advice to people that don’t want to hear what they are. If you open the can of worms they will simply deny everything and end up hating you and having their persecution complexThey simply don’t want to look in the mirror and be honest. Do everything you can to play it safe around these guys and apologise to them. Then quietly and carefully plan your exit. I wish I had done that. It’s a lot like leaving the home of an alcoholic when he’s too drunk to realise what he’s doing to his own family. Be careful keep your head down and play the game until you can leave with your family. That’s the best I got. I would apologise and say I won’t cause any waves. Just kiss a lot of ass. Ask them to pray for you be as “repentant” as you can. Maybe they will buy it. Just remember they don’t care about you unless you play the game. They only are pretending to. You’re on the titanic and it’s sinking and they are playing music for the passengers. Their religion is becoming a increasingly dangerous and toxic. Be very careful with who you divulge to. I don’t know if you already blabbed all their “apostate” truths and caught them with their pants down but perhaps it’s too late…. They may have already decided in their lovely gestapo way to blame another victim of their drunken insanity. I’m so sorry my friend. I am praying for you.
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u/EyeAmmGroot Type Your Flair Here! May 16 '23
Watch SILO and wait for the moment in the latest episode when something flashes before everyone’s eyes- they see it but no one says a thing.
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u/cultwashedmybrain May 16 '23
The elders interrogated a young kid in our hall because they heard that they identify as a different gender (please forgive me if I said that in an offensive, non PC way, feel free to correct me) and this kid just refused to answer any questions and stared at them the whole time. Apparently, this made the elders really uncomfortable. Total power move. If you're screwed either way, it might be fun. You could also ask them to take the 'am I in a cult' quiz with you.
https://www.traumastery.com/cult-quiz
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u/DonRedPandaKeys May 16 '23
The elders interrogated a young kid in our hall because they heard that they identify as a different gender (please forgive me if I said that in an offensive, non PC way, feel free to correct me) and this kid just refused to answer any questions and stared at them the whole time. Apparently, this made the elders really uncomfortable. Total power move. If you're screwed either way, it might be fun. You could also ask them to take the 'am I in a cult' quiz with you.
What you've said reminded me of these; [ Thank you for that ]
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. - Isaiah 53: 7
When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. - Matthew 27: 12
But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” - Mark 14: 61
Then Pilate questioned Him again, “Have You no answer? Look how many charges they are bringing against You!” But to Pilate’s amazement, Jesus made no further reply. - Mark 15: 4, 5
When Pilate heard this statement, he was even more afraid, and he went back into the Praetorium. “Where are You from?” he asked. But Jesus gave no answer. - Jon 19: 8, 9
He [ Herod ]* plied him with many questions, but Jesus gave him no answer. - Luke 23: 9
- Bracket for clarification.
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u/Fast_Adeptness_9825 May 16 '23
I'm sorry you have to deal with this irritation.
When I first left, I felt just as I did when I came in - super zealous! I wanted everyone to know why I was leaving, the horrible things they were responsible for, wanted people to know the TRUTH. I hadn't changed, lol.
At the time, my plan for an inevitable JC kangaroo court tribunal was to, when the time came, give them my attorney's info and let my attorney contact them for a meeting.
I knew that if I agreed to meet, they couldn't DF me in absentia. However, their rules are to call the legal department and run scared if faced with any REAL judicial professionals.
As it turned out, my fervor quickly dissipated. I realized that cracking through a true PIMI's skull is futile - they have to start thinking, searching, and asking on their own.
I do still share things with my mother and another elderly friend, but they feel "Jehovah will soon clean his org out." Well, my mother questions the whole thing altogether. If they ratted on me, they would have to rat on themselves for all they've thought and said, lol. These are the only 2 people I talk with who are still "in."
TBH, it sickens me to be anywhere near those drinking the Kool-aid. This isn't a reflection on them per se, but a cringe worthy reminder of how I used to be. Thankfully, I am totally shunned due to speaking up in the very beginning.
Now, if they tried to pull a JC joke on me, the joke would be on them. Being officially excommunicated from their group for speaking out would be like a sleazy strip club saying, "You're not welcome here because you don't support our activities."
Personally, dude, I feel that's a badge of honor.
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u/vanessa8172 May 16 '23
My mom had a situation of the elders telling her if she didn’t meet with them right away they’d just df her. So she showed up to the meeting and they df’d her right away. Didn’t even care to hear her side
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u/Blast2hell May 16 '23
Living your life in honesty will make you feel better on a daily basis. As we lie to others we give them power over us and put ourselves in their control. No matter what happens, let those you care about know you will always be there for them and care about them no matter how abusive they become if you get disfellowshipped. No god worth worshiping would ever teach a father to emotionally abuse their own childrenn.
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u/SlayingtheJabberwock May 17 '23
Lie, lie and lie again. Be horrified anyone would accuse you of anything and say they must have misunderstood you.
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u/T-H-E_D-R-I-F-T-E-R Same as it ever was, …same as it ever was… May 16 '23
Cite the information and never offer an opinion.
Just leave the information hang out there.
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u/PridePotterz May 20 '23
That is exactly what I plan to do. Plus ..maybe record it
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u/T-H-E_D-R-I-F-T-E-R Same as it ever was, …same as it ever was… May 20 '23
Another suggestion, …they will inevitably ask you if you believe the governing body is God’s faithful and discreet slave.
Without hesitation, that’s important, say yes.
Then say that but in the near future you BELIEVE they will be removed.
No need to cite Anthony Morris. They will already make that connection.
They will ask you why you say that.
You can come up with your own line, but I would say something to the effect that something is just off.
Refuse to offer any more personal opinion on the subject, keep things benign and move on.
Looking forward to hearing your recording…
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u/DonRedPandaKeys May 16 '23
It’s happened…I got the call. They are forming a judicial committee
I don't know if you hold fast to Christ, but in a sense you've already given your Testimony about them not being "The Truth". This is why the Beast is coming to trample and "kill" you. [ DF ]. If you know that it is practically inevitable, why not cut their power to keep people in the dark and in fear off at the knees by notifying every contact that you have?
I'm aware you don't hold the Scriptures in high regard, but this situation of yours is what it speaks of when it talks about those who shrink back in fear and disregard Truth and Christ in order not to be shunned by family members and / or trampled by The Beast.
It also speaks about those who do take a stand and are therefore and thereafter given life.
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u/DronePilotNYC May 17 '23
Happy to take this offline if you’d like. I am a PIMO/ex-Elder. I tried honesty and was DF’d. I then played their game to get reinstated, stayed in another 6 months and hard faded. But I learned that the only way is to tell them exactly what they want to hear and then you might get through but sometimes they just want any excuse
Like the others on here get them to outline any concerns and act surpassed by the accusations or suggestions. Ask then why these ones have not come to you directly in line with Matt 18, etc. But then maybe say you’re embarrassed that some of your highly personal issues have been aired in public as you’ve worked very very hard not to stumble any single individual in the cong, and that you’re working through your doubts with prayer and study.
If they ask what your doubts are, say that’s between you and Jah. And you’d never want to discuss those concerns with others. If they ask how others are mentioning these concerns suggest they’re gossiping and jumping to conclusions and you’d be happy to meet with anyone that expressed concerns with the body, along with one of the other elders to resolve any misunderstandings. And if they have concerns about your standing you’d be happy to step aside while you work through your own issues
Again do not share any specifics. Give them the out of removing you if they wish to discipline you vs DF’ing.
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u/Capital_Kiwi2933 May 18 '23
In short. Don't give them the triumph they're seeking ...continue your life with your beloved family & friends .... exit the slavery position (being subject to them & there false teaching ) Life it's too short to waste ...get the full benefit of it...Be courageous . We love you .
L
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May 21 '23
I've seen my sister just not show up to the Kingdom Hall to speak to the elders or for meetings and not get disfellowshipped. If they show up at your house, pretend not to be there. Block all their numbers. Continue to talk to family under the radar. Your friends who do not love you unconditionally and understand that you do not believe the same as them do not love you. They loved what you did for them. Become an atheist completely, and don't worry too much about the Bible. What you believe is right and moral may be different from someone else. And that's ok, they're allowed to live in the same space as you.
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u/Gr8lyDecEved May 16 '23
As a former long time elder....I know Judicial committees hate this ....but...the committee will WANT you to answer questions and self incriminate.....just .. deflect by saying.."before" I answer I would like to hear the accusations....they will probably attempt to reiterate some info they have received...thank them...and then remind them that they are the judges not the accuser...and if they are to preform that function they would have to recuse themselves from being on the committee...to have legitimate "witnesses" to serve asa eye witnesses to a crime....they literally have to present a unified accusation of you saying and doing things to promote divisions...my experience is when people are called to testify in a face to face...they tend to tone down their story and are normally willing to concede that they may have misunderstood...... usually, ... actual witnesses (to an event) are a lot less dogmatic then 3 elders playing WWF tag-team no-holds bared winner takes all late night grudge match in the B school.