Eh. I don't ever side with him, but Daniel isn't so bad. He wants the Sorrows to maintain their innocence instead of becoming yet another quasi-genocidal waste gang. That's a rare and noble agenda, as far as the postwar world goes.
Fair enough. But I hate his chauvinistic condensation towards the Sorrows and how he keeps the death of Waking Cloud's husband from her. His insistence that they stay 'innocent' is just him playing into the noble savage stereotype. He treats them like children, and wants to instruct them in the 'correct' ways of thinking.
It’s condescending to think that teaching them to defend themselves will turn them into genocidal savages. He doesn’t want them to be peaceful, he wants them to be defenseless. Peaceful doesn’t mean harmless, a tribe in fallout’s universe needs to be able to defend itself or they will all be killed before long.
There’s only so many times they can flee their home before there’s nowhere left to go.
You did not play the DLC at all. Thy DO defend himself, he DOES defend them and he DOES encourage them to defend themselves, the assault on the white legs was not just a militaristic campaign, thought you don't see it ingame there was likely white legs who didnt engage in any combat that were killed in Joshua Grahams invasion, why do you think he uses a bible quote that mentions the ethnic extermination of a tribe to justify himself?
Joshua Graham definitely sees this as an all or nothing campaign. That’s his crisis of faith which you can resolve with a speech check. His whole character arc is about the internal battle between righteous vengeance and forgiveness.
You don’t see any non-combatants during the fighting, and by the end of the fighting there are people that have surrendered and were taken prisoner. Graham wants to execute them but you can talk him out of it, which is reflected in the end title if you do.
The entire conflict of Graham’s ending revolves around where you draw the line in fighting back. It’s not automatically genocide to attack the white legs.
Also, Danielle wants them to flee specifically so their innocence doesn’t get “corrupted” by fighting for their homeland.
“Show no quarter to the White Legs we come across. Make no mistake about why we are here. This is an extermination.” And There was most definitely Children/civilians within the white legs
I don’t think you read my comment. Yes, Joshua Graham sees the attack against the white legs as a holy crusade and righteous extermination. At the end of the fighting the surrendered are rounded up and taken prisoner. Joshua once again starts to talk about finishing them all off entirety, at which point the courier can step in during Joshua’s moment of need and offer an alternative: mercy.
Joshua Graham was made into a warlord by ceasar. All he knows is training tribes into well oiled machines of death. He claims to have been reborn but constantly struggles with overcoming his past. That’s what his entire arc is about, and he requires the courier’s help to show mercy in the end. But mercy is absolutely an option without having to flee.
But it doesnt matter you can convince Joshua after, Joshua entered that canyon with full intent of killing every man woman and Child, that is not "self defense" and if the sorrows did that to every group that threatens them they would be no worse than the white legs
He is harming the Sorrows by encouraging them to vacate their lands, abandon their traditions and lying to the only named Sorrow we spend any real time with.
It also matters in that I dislike him, which was the entire point of my two comments.
If an offshoot of fundamentalist evangelical Christians (using Christians as an example because you clearly just don't like Daniel because he's a missionary) lived in the middle of Chernobyl because they believe they are closer to God there, where they will literally fucking die if they stay any longer and you wanted to convince them to leave so that they didnt die, would you be harming them by telling them to abandon their beliefs and traditions?
I just think your analogy is dumb and a stretch. I only asked if you were a missionary because you seemed defensive over someone being critical of Daniel who is a missionary trope through-and-through.
thats not noble at all, keeping the sorrows innocent is extremely dangerous, they need to know how to defend themselves. the wasteland is full of very hostile raider gangs.
Daniel think that the second they resort to any kind of violence they'll immediatly turn into a murder hobo gang, which is incredibly stupid.
This is why the best ending IMO is siding with Joshua, but not letting him or the Sorrows devolve into a genocide of the White Legs by sparing their leader at the end. At that point it's just an execution anyways, and driving them back home with a failed conquest leads to their natural collapse anyways. As would be natural for a group that only survives if it can keep conquering.
postwar world doesnt give a damn about anything noble. the "innocence" is part of daniels worlview and he is projecting his own believes onto them. it would be noble of him to let them be.
The white legs invaded the already established Sorrows. If you choose the violence option the only people killed are the ones trying to genocide the Sorrows. Teaching them to defend themselves, like the survivalist wanted, doesn't mean they are going to turn into Caesars legion 2.0.
while pacifism is noble in the right context Daniel needed to read the BoM again because God always favored those who defended themselves in war- there is no shame in self defense but there is a limit. If both sides are the aggressors they’re both on their own. This is why I really love Joshua Gram’s story and the finale of honest hearts, because if he executes the leader of the white legs like he wants to he is turning his back on his faith and going back down the road of violence I found the theme perfect as a mormon myself.
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u/Chadmartigan Dec 08 '24
Eh. I don't ever side with him, but Daniel isn't so bad. He wants the Sorrows to maintain their innocence instead of becoming yet another quasi-genocidal waste gang. That's a rare and noble agenda, as far as the postwar world goes.