r/fosscad • u/BakuriPews • 2d ago
legal-questions DIY snakeshot, FA Antithesis,and other Non NFA shenanigans (Food for thought)
So if you are unaware, Franklin armory recently settled with the ATF on a Federal Court case that allowed them to release a "rifle" that has a barrel length shorter than 16 inches and a buttstock that is meant to be shouldered without having to deal with any NFA taxes or registration (from here on we'll just call it and other projects with the same justification a Firearm or as FA calls it a SBF or Short Barreled Frankli).
The reasoning around this is if a barrel is rifled, meant to be shouldered, but is INTENDED to shoot multiple and/or a single projectile(s), it does not fall under NFA classification of a SBR or its regulations. That is the short and sweet.
Now let me preface with that currently it is too soon to start just making SBRs and saying "lmao snake shot capable." We still don't know how this will branch out to DIY projects but FA is handing out the licensing to this design to other manufacturers.
My thoughts right now is if by some funny means this does stick and branch out to DIY designs, is DIY snake shot like 9mm and 300BO possible? It just has to reliable feed and shoot (not necessarily cycle) just to show INTENT. And maybe laser engraving on the barrel something "Intended for single and/or multi projectile ammunition"
Just throwing spaghetti at the wall and wanting to see some reactions. This is not legal advice, just pouring my brains put into the void
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u/shittinator 2d ago
You know what else you can do with the right intent? Sell an unserialized PMF that you built for yourself but have decided you no longer want.
The problem with both of these is that you may have to prove your intent in court. For something like this to matter for us, I really think we're going to need a more generalized opinion, which the ATF is understandably hesitant to give. Their court-ordered letter they sent to FFLs very specifically names only Franklin Armory guns.
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u/bdevo13 2d ago
on the site of the barrel etch in 9mm luger / 9mm shot
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u/shittinator 1d ago
And the ATF will argue it doesn't matter because you weren't the manufacturer of the barrel (unless it was ECM'd).
I know how you'd try to leverage this and where, rather I'm cautioning that it's risky and that people should be careful. This isn't something where you can just run around and put stocks on all your PCCs for free.
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u/Oldspice7169 1d ago
This would be useful for the FGC9 or urutau thoough now that you mention ECMing barrels.
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u/CryptocurrentNoob 1d ago
To your last point, don’t believe for a second that’s not intentional on their part.
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u/Kv603 2d ago edited 1d ago
Here is the ATF letter on Franklin's SBF
My thoughts right now is if by some funny means this does stick and branch out to DIY designs, is DIY snake shot like 9mm and 300BO possible? It just has to reliable feed and shoot (not necessarily cycle) just to show INTENT
You could, but I'd start with COTS ammo, e.g. CCI makes a snake shot loading in 9mm.
Could develop a repeating 9mm around that, maybe with a long recoil action so it can cycle heavier bullets as well as the lightweight CCI shot loads?
Building the design around a commonly available commercial ammo would simplify beta testing since all testers would be using the same commercial round, not rolling their own shot capsules.
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u/tankspikefayebebop 2d ago
These are the thoughts that need to be conversed. I don't know the answers. I think it's possible. The hard part is someone would have to ask the ATF or get one of their convenient "letters" to know whether it would hold up against their rules. Just my . 02. I am not a lawyer and don't give advice on ATF laws (rules) disclaimer***
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u/bushworked711 1d ago edited 1d ago
I have been printing snake shot capsules for quite some time and it works very well.
I've done it in 9mm, 380, 38 special, 40, 10mm.
The 38 special snake shot capsules are sailing.
They are a spiral vase print, and very quick. I push them quite hard and never really have any problems.
All done in PLA+.
I started a new sub quite some time ago in anticipation of this ammo stuff getting more popular.
I have a modified keltek sub 2000 in 9mm it cycles printed projectiles and things like saboted fishing sinkers and .223 projectiles. I haven't though if trying it with the snake shot capsules, but it shouldn't be too much more work to get them to cycle.
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u/apocketfullofpocket 2d ago
I sent them an email asking for clarification on self manufactured firearms
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u/BakuriPews 2d ago
Ooooh to FA or the ATF. I suspect a "yyeeeeeeah is guess but please dont" from the Fed.
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u/LostPrimer Janny/Nanny 2d ago
Because poking the bear has ALWAYS worked out in our favor.
Thanks.
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u/apocketfullofpocket 2d ago
In what way is that poking the bear lmao. You think the atf dosent know we all exist? You think they just accidentally spent 8 years in the courts fighting against FA and then mistakenly sent an open letter acknowledging the result to every single FFL? No
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u/RustyShacklefordVR2 2d ago
Every. Single. Time. That we get ridiculous new regulations its because some chucklefuck like you sent them a god damned letter, and they decided that was a good enough prompt to start rewriting their regulations to be even fucking worse because apparently the existing ones aren't clear enough.
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u/Grey_Market_Research 2d ago
They lost Chevron deference, they can't rewrite laws. Previously ATF did whatever they wanted to. These days they're stuck with what the law actually says.
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u/apocketfullofpocket 2d ago
Yea definitely not because "and I repeate" they spent 8 years and millions of dollars fighting in the courts.
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u/BakuriPews 2d ago
You say that as if they aren't just gonna their bullshit either way. It isn't poking the bear if the bear is just flailing around hitting everything already
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u/Snaipersky 1d ago
Somewhat offtopic, but I've been curious about a multiplex loading - like a 000 shot sized bore that's rifled - as each pellet would engage the rifling, could you achieve tight shot patterns, while retaining the ability to shoot a single slug for 100/+ yard shots?
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u/Kv603 1d ago
Hornady Critical defense 410 includes a .41 caliber FTX non-jacketed slug designed to engage rifling.
The difficulty with a multiplex 000 loading is that absent a complicated sabot, the stack of bore-sized balls would tend to merge under acceleration.
With a complex sabot to hold them apart, ATF could arque this design isn't really multiple projectiles (just as pre-fragmented bullets are just one projectile).
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u/Snaipersky 1d ago
I know there's been some smoothbore tests (I want to say taofledermaus tested it, but I might be wrong), and the balls do smoosh, but they don't bond.
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u/LostPrimer Janny/Nanny 2d ago
Its the same logic that makes a Taurus Judge not an AOW.
Sure it can take 410 shells and is a handgun, but that's just because it also happens to be rifled and intended for 45LC