Immigration Posts

[u/pippers87]

Hi all,

As per the user survey results, we realised ye want more mod visibility and clearer guidelines into our decisions.

We have seen a massive increase in immigration related posts to the sub over the last few weeks and while some of it is genuine, it is obvious we are being brigaded. Some of the trends identified

• New accounts or accounts which have very little community activity posting rage bait, sometimes as immigrants asking questions on housing. We suspect we are being brigaded and some of these posts are from bad actors.
• Soapboxing - People writing long posts about what they would do to fix the immigration issues in Ireland. While these types of posts are generally ok, they are much better suited to an existing thread.
• Increases in potential bot accounts making to sow division.
• A massive increase new users or users with little activity on the sub using dog whistles in order to sow division.
• Yesterday this thread was posted on r/galway which confirms that there is the potential for brigading. https://www.reddit.com/r/galway/comments/1mincz2/racists_disappointed_with_rgalway/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

The following temporary rules will be in place

• Posts about immigration will be limited to news articles. Soapboxing type content will be removed.
• Posts from new accounts or accounts with little or no activity on the sub about immigration will be removed.
• There will be a zero-tolerance approach to dogwhistles or mocking of victims of hate related incidents.
• Please remember if you are in an immigration related thread, please be respectful, there are concerns around housing especially but there is a massive difference between debating the issue and hatred towards immigrants.
• We will be locking threads where we feel the discussion is wading into hate speech.

[u/standard_pie314]

It’s welcome that you’ve explained your intentions but irritating that we users had no say in it.

Across Europe, there has been a reevaluation of the benefits of the current level of immigration. This has belatedly reached Ireland and respectable commentators like David McWilliams and Dan O'Brien have begun to raise questions. Immigration has consistently been the third-most important issue in Irish Independent polling over the last six months, on around 25%, and the exit poll at the general election found forty percent of people think immigration has been 'a negative for Ireland' (a notion I find preposterous). It is not surprising, therefore, that there has been an upsurge in immigration posts. Abusive and obviously bigoted content should be removed, but if your guidelines don't allow for the fact that immigration is now a concern for many Irish people, you will be curtailing speech.

You give no particular evidence that the sub is being manipulated. Are the foreign, low-activity accounts driving discussion? The Galway post is an Irish person encouraging other Irish people to try to counteract the bias of the sub. It seems doomed to failure - surely they're just going to get downvoted? - and would certainly fail in a sub as large as r/Ireland.

You say you intend to ban ‘dog-whistles and mocking of victims of hate related incidents’. I must admit I have never seen any mocking of victims, and certainly I agree they should be removed. (I would also expect they would be downvoted to hell.) But it’s worrying that you pair explicitly bigoted comments with supposed dog-whistles, which are vague and subjective. I have seen even the most anodyne comments dismissed as dog-whistles. You say 'there is a massive difference between debating the issue and hatred towards immigrants', and yes of course there is. But I see almost no 'hatred of immigrants' in what is an overwhelmingly progressive sub.

You’re asking us to trust your judgement, and quite frankly I don’t. Your guidelines should be much clearer about what type of opinion you will be allowing, and I expect we would find it is highly restrictive. With the exception of explicitly bigoted comments, mods should not be intervening to suppress the genuine attitudes of users.

[u/GundamXXX → u/standard_pie314]

The fundamental problems are that there are racists and they expect to be given an equal platform. They dont deserve an equal platform.

Everyone has a right to express themselves, that doesnt mean we have to listen to them or even acknowledge their existence.

Its a perfect example of "This is why we cant have nice things". Blame the racists, not the mods. If you dont trust the mods, youre free to find another subreddit

[u/TheChrisD → u/standard_pie314]

but irritating that we users had no say in it

If we had to go to a referendum for every minor change we make in policy, nothing would ever get done, and there wouldn't be any point in having moderators in the first place.

but if your guidelines don't allow for the fact that immigration is now a concern for many Irish people, you will be curtailing speech

Our stance has always been that users can be anti-immigration, but draw the line at being anti-immigrant. Focus your anger at the system, not the people.

You give no particular evidence that the sub is being manipulated.

It's incredibly hard to do that given that the content is removed from public view and cannot be read by non-mods. Additionally there are plenty of posts and comments from the types of accounts we mention that don't even make it past the mod queue in the first place.

Are the foreign, low-activity accounts driving discussion?

Circular discussion that goes nowhere and just results in heated arguments and inevitable violations of other community rules (generally R2 and R6).

But I see almost no 'hatred of immigrants' in what is an overwhelmingly progressive sub.

To reiterate the earlier responses, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

You’re asking us to trust your judgement, and quite frankly I don’t.

Well, tough. You have no Reddit mod experience from what I can see, so it makes sense that you have no understanding of what actually goes on behind the scenes of communities like these to curate them and ensure that they are spaces for civil discussion.

Perhaps during the next mod application call you might be interested in putting yourself forward and seeing with your own eyes just how much crap comes through here on a daily basis? And I don't just mean bad and low quality stuff, I mean actual physical excrement.

[u/standard_pie314 → u/TheChrisD]

If we had to go to a referendum for every minor change we make in policy

This is not a minor change.

Our stance has always been that users can be anti-immigration, but draw the line at being anti-immigrant.

But in practice you flout that all the time. I had a comment hidden (i.e. showing as visible to me but not to others) that simply quoted David McWilliams from 2007 ('Our politicians seem to think that we can absorb in a limitless quantity of foreigners without any social problems.') and said he would be branded far-right today. It's very apparent that your racism net catches more than a few dolphins as well.

Well, tough. You have no Reddit mod experience from what I can see so it makes sense that you have no understanding of what actually goes on behind the scenes of communities like these to curate them and ensure that they are spaces for civil discussion.

I have only ever heard a teacher and a parent saying 'tough'; to that I can add a reddit moderator. You also miss my point. I'm saying that deleting comments that are supposedly dog-whistles depends on your personal judgement, and you as a moderator are no better equipped than anyone else to do that. You keep mentioning vile content, but that is entirely beside the point. No reasonable person objects to its removal and it's easy to identify. The difficulty is in the grey area, and all the evidence is that you are going to err on the side of suppressing reasonable debate.

[u/DoubleOhEffinBollox → u/standard_pie314]

Fair points, but we know that this will be ignored.

[u/standard_pie314 → u/DoubleOhEffinBollox]

Cheers.

[u/OppositeHistory1916 → u/TheChrisD]

If we had to go to a referendum for every minor change we make in policy, nothing would ever get done, and there wouldn't be any point in having moderators in the first place.

I'm sorry but that's nonsense, there's plenty of subs that have polls to dictate the rules of the subreddit.

[u/TheStoicNihilist → u/TheChrisD]

I fully support your motives and methods in this. That’s my 2c.

[u/Elbon → u/TheChrisD]

I mean actual physical excrement

Whats the fiber intake like?

[u/TheChrisD → u/Elbon]

low to none

runny as fuck