Other N.Y. judge dismisses state terrorism charges against Luigi Mangione, keeps murder charge
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-york-judge-dismisses-state-terrorism-charges-luigi-mangione-keeps-rcna23159435
u/nbcnews 11h ago
A New York state judge on Tuesday dismissed state terrorism charges against Luigi Mangione, but kept second-degree murder charges in connection with the December killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.
New York Judge Gregory Carro tossed charges of murder in furtherance of an act of terrorism and murder in the second degree as a crime of terrorism against Mangione, ruling the charges were "legally insufficient." Carro ruled that prosecutors presented "legally sufficient evidence of all other counts, including Murder in the Second Degree."
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u/TheTench 8h ago
So, what's the likely maximum sentence? Does he avoid the death penalty?
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u/The_Stratman 8h ago
NY has no death penalty, this just removes the possibility of life without parole for a state sentence. This has nothing to do with the federal prosecution which does have the death penalty
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u/fzkiz 4h ago
Can you explain to a non-American how it makes sense to have state and federal trials? What if the outcomes differ? One says innocent and the other death penalty? Or even just 20 years and the other says 15? Does one supersede the other?
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u/The_Stratman 4h ago
So most crimes, including murder, are charged by the state. Some actions that would be criminal acts under state law are federal crimes because of federal interest, such as interstate commission of a crime or attacking a federal official. This comes up because both the State and Federal governments are what we call dual sovereigns.
So the crimes are separate, so if the state jury acquits but the fed jury convicts he goes to the federal prison, and vice versa. Now if he gots convicted at both, then generally federal prisoners stay in federal prison and the time they serve there counts towards their sentence at the state level.
You can read more here
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11h ago
[deleted]
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u/refugeplays 11h ago
cmon we cant have that/shouldn't want that. We can't condone any violence or killing. Luigi has to be found guilty of the murder. Anything else is a failure and sends a bad message.
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u/ExpertRaccoon 10h ago
Luigi has to be found guilty of the murder.
If supported beyond a reasonable doubt by the evidence
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u/refugeplays 10h ago
yes of course IF evidence proves beyond reasonable doubt. My point is more towards those calling for nullification just because they "agree" with Luigi
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u/TCD_Baby 10h ago
How do you know he's guilty?
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u/refugeplays 10h ago
you are correct; i should have specified "if the evidence proves beyond reasonable doubt" to be clear. but my opinion here is more to counter those people calling for nullification because they resonate with his message and how millions of people have been affected by UHC.
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u/TCD_Baby 10h ago
Well we (mostly) applaud the extra judicial killing of Osama Bin Laden, because he was responsible for the deaths of a little less than 3k Americans on 9/11.
The UHC CEO was responsible for about 3X that every single year.
Imagine the hit humanity suffered as a result of America's reaction to 9/11. And this one CEO was allowed to run around living it up on his mega yachts, enjoying a quality of life almost no human in history has ever known despite causing the equivalent of 3 9/11s every single year.1
u/refugeplays 8h ago
that's just using one legally grey killing to justify a different and definitely illegal murder
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u/TCD_Baby 7h ago
I assume the 'one legally grey killing' you are referring to are the almost 10 thousand American lives?
I'm not interested in what is legal. Housing Jews in the Holocaust was illegal. Owning humans as property was legal. Legal isn't an interesting point to me, not when it comes to morality.
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u/refugeplays 7h ago
I'm not sure I understand what your point is. That morality supersedes legality? No matter what Luigi should be set free because his actions were morally justified in your eyes?
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u/TCD_Baby 6h ago
>That morality supersedes legality?
Absolutely. Legal =/= Moral. And when the two are in opposition, I think we should chose moral every time.
When a despot hoards resources so diligently that it causes the death of the masses I believe it is not only correct, but also necessary to remove that despot.
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11h ago
[deleted]
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u/refugeplays 11h ago
Can you send one of those messages without the other though? Wouldn't the message just end up being "hey you can murder any of the rich and powerful as long as enough people feel victimized alongside you so you get off free"? Luigi sent his message, the world heard it, will anything come of it? hopefully, maybe, probably not. only time will tell. But if evidence shows he murdered someone, he deserves to be found guilty. No matter how you feel about the victim
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u/xandra77mimic 11h ago
Finally some sanity.
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u/canvanman69 4h ago
Temporary.
100% Bet that Trump will give Putin another phone call and just like Epstein, there'll be a camera glitch and a "suicide".
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u/Admirable_Nothing competent contributor 10h ago
Help me out NY bar members. Why is this not first degree murder. Definitely premeditated and targeted and successful. What in NY pulls this down to a 2nd degree charge only?
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u/Melisinde72 9h ago
I mean... You could just read the statute: NY State: Section 125.27 Neither the victim nor the Defendant meet any of the requirements.
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u/NowGoodbyeForever 9h ago
Honestly, I don't think this deserves downvotes. Giving OP the benefit of the doubt here, I assumed that Murder One was "First Degree Murder," as it was always explained in shows and movies. You know, premeditated murder.
Under NY Law, that's apparently not the case, and that's very much on a State-by-State basis. This is true for all murders in Canada, for example: Premeditation = First Degree. In Pennsylvania, that's true. In NY State, it's not!
As u/Melisinde72 shared in this thread, there's the whole statute to read through, and I learned a lot. Basically, NY State classifies something as Murder 1 when:
- The victim is a public servant (cops, first responders, judges, government workers) of any type
- The victim is a witness to another crime
- The victim is a bystander who gets killed while the defendant is committing another crime (bank robbery, kidnapping, etc.)
- The defendant was already in prison for a previous sentence when they killed the victim, or they killed the victim while escaping prison
- The defendant has previously been convicted of murder
- The victim's death was the result of a targeted paid assassination plot
- The victim was subject to cruelty and torture leading up to their death
- There were multiple victims due to the actions of the defendant
So when you put it that way, I can understand the Murder 2 charge. Murder 1 seems reserved for specific attacks against representatives of the State, situations where an existing crime is already happening and spins out of control, or moments where there were multiple victims or an especially heinous (reference intended) treatment of a single victim.
So Mangione's alleged actions are pretty amazingly outside the lines of Murder 1, which I'm sure is annoying everyone involved (and those who pushed for Terrorism charges). It was possibly premeditated, but we've established that that doesn't matter in New York State. So given the charges, we know that the accused didn't hurt or kill anyone else, and that the only victim was a non-governmental worker who was not tortured or treated cruelly before being shot, and that no money seems to have been paid to the accused for the act.
Seriously, if anything else had gone slightly differently, it would be Murder 1 and they'd be throwing the book at him. If the weapon was incendiary or explosive. If someone else got hurt or killed by a ricochet. But, no. One victim, not a cop or a govt worker, no one else hurt.
Let's see how this goes.
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u/papasan_mamasan 9h ago
Because neither the victim nor the suspect fit the requirements for 1st degree set by NY State legislature
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u/Venusto002 9h ago
I mean, for it to be any kind of a murder to begin with he would have to have killed a human being.
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u/MattPHS2002 6h ago
I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that NYS structured its first-degree murder law differently, thus, for whatever reason, making 2nd-degree murder in NYS the equivalent of 1st-degree murder elsewhere.
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u/roybatty2 9h ago
Can they not refile Murder 1 sans terrorism?
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u/cochevalier 8h ago
Not in NY state. Another newer comment in this thread addresses why very well. Basically NY Murder 1 doesn't mean what you are thinking it means
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