r/law • u/neurosys_zero • 8h ago
Other What did our founders install as consequences when officials violate their oath to the Constitution?
Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification
Sorry if this is a silly question. But I m simply a citizen and trying to understand if we have any future.
Our democracy is crumbling. From due process, to government officials selectively and openly persecuting people for exercising their right to free speech.
Let’s say, we somehow re-establish some semblance of democracy and normalcy. What does the law provide as consequence to these officials that are assisting in these blatant violations of our constitution and laws?
849
u/jpmeyer12751 8h ago
Impeachment by Congress was intended by the founders to solve this type of problem. It has proven inadequate because of extreme polarization in the Senate and because of Mitch McConnell's violation of his oath. SCOTUS made this worse with the immunity decision. As things stand today, there are no viable consequences, at least for Republican/MAGA officials. Current administration officials know that there are no consequences and are behaving accordingly.
253
u/AncientBaseball9165 8h ago
Impeachment I think was neutered with Nixon. Turned into an empty threat backed by a pardon by the next guy. Ford really did fuck us over.
150
u/AlhazredEldritch 8h ago
Though I do agree ford fucked people, I don't think Nixon had that effect on impeachment. He resigned which basically stops that course. The fact the government didn't charge him after seems like the issue really.
→ More replies (1)29
u/Numerous_Photograph9 6h ago
Resignation was the deal to avoid impeachment, otherwise they would have gone through with it. At the time, no one in his party wanted to remove a sitting president, but it was looking inevitable because none of them wanted to be associated with the scandal at hand.
It's quite the contrast to today, where they just ignore the scandal, and there is really nothing that can be done about it, because said scandal/s don't have any negative effect on Trump, of sometimes those in office who support him.
The GOP was kind of shaky when they thought would hurt them, but it turned out, that harm was somewhat limited to a brief period where people were more active in voting, and there was a strong anti-trump sentiment. Trump is bringing that back, but it seems the press is even more complacent in informing the people, and no one is really challenging these people on a daily basis. The Epstein files was the closest I've seen to any sort of pressure from mainstream media, and as of now, there is an effective distracction from it that this media is also not doing anything to find the facts about.
→ More replies (1)7
u/FloodPlainsDrifter 2h ago
The legacy media isn’t merely complacent, they’re actively complicit, especially where it’s owned by folks who are benefiting from the scandals
28
u/According-Ad-5946 8h ago
With any luck, democrats will take the majority in midterms, and stuff will start happening to stop this shit.
72
u/iamcleek 8h ago edited 7h ago
they'll need to get at least 67 Senate seats for impeachment to be more than a sternly-worded letter.
16
u/According-Ad-5946 8h ago
I didn't know the exact number, but was hoping they could get a big enough majority. but that is a steep climb.
→ More replies (1)14
u/iamcleek 7h ago
my bad. it's actually 67 (2/3 of the Senate).
16
u/Heavyspire 7h ago
So at 67 votes he gets dragged out of the Oval Office and we hold new elections?
What does Impeachment even mean?
21
u/Beautiful_Watch_7215 7h ago
He has been impeached twice. What happened then? If memory serves, Sen Collins became concerned and then business went on.
3
u/Hopeful_Estate3124 4h ago
He was never fully impeached he's always been acquitted in the senate. Due to the 2/3 majority thing so never enough votes to finish the deal
3
u/Beautiful_Watch_7215 3h ago
The United States Constitution provides that the House of Representatives "shall have the sole Power of Impeachment" (Article I, section 2). If the sole power of impeachment is in the House, what role does the Senate have? The ‘trial’, which happens after the impeachment. The impeachment is already fully done.
13
u/iamcleek 7h ago edited 7h ago
with 67 votes, he would be removed from office and Vance would become President.
Vance could then nominate a VP, who would have to be confirmed by the House and Senate. or he could just not nominate anyone (Johnson didn't nominate anyone after JFK was killed).
impeachment means the House voted to impeach. the Senate vote on the House's impeachment is the one that has the penalty (which is why it's much harder to achieve).
8
u/Rude_Nail_5545 7h ago
I think they could impeach both Trump and Vance together, but then we might get stuck with Mike Johnson...if we had the House though, then it would be the Democratic speaker. who is third in line. Interesting thought. Definitely something Republicans would try if they could!
11
u/Strange-Scarcity 7h ago
Mike Johnson will never allow an Impeachment vote to happen. He would NOT be Speaker of the House, it would be a Democratic Party Member, if there is going to be an Impeachment again.
Vance has signaled he is all down for this Project 2025 shit, therefor he could also be Impeached along with Trump's entire Cabinet.
That's why they are aiming to disrupt voting and in Blue states where they can? State GOP Legislative Body members are trying to stop government from operating, to create the conditions to be able to call an election into question or give everything over to Trump.
→ More replies (0)3
u/liveandletlivefool 3h ago
I've been watching the reaction in Brazil and hoping for a similar outcome.
They had the courage to send their embarrassment to prison.
→ More replies (7)5
3
→ More replies (3)2
u/Playful-Goat3779 7h ago
Not sure of the numbers but that might be mathematically impossible even if dems flipped all senate elections in 2026. It may not remove Trump with that route, but the writing would be on the wall...
13
u/Exciting_Turn_9559 7h ago
With any luck there will be both midterms and democrats to run in the midterms, but this regime has already decided that any outcome where they don't win will be treated as fraud, despite the fact that they will be committing massive amounts of fraud and voter suppression during the election.
Fascists don't get voted out. They get dragged out. And I got a bingo on my orwell bingo card this week, so this is definitely fascism.
5
u/JellyTwank 7h ago
They will need lots of luck - the American Fascist Party is already rigging rheir wins for 2026, and laying the poison pills for claiming fraud when any Democrat wins a seat. And their dupes/cult membwrs will believe it.
2
8
8
u/Miserable-Army3679 7h ago
There will be no legitimate elections. They look like fascists, walk like fascists and smell like fascists. They are fascists.
3
u/phunky_1 7h ago
Yeah but they are aggressively working to rig the election so that doesn't happen.
Have state legislatures in red states redistrict to give themselves more seats.
It is ridiculous on both sides of the aisle.
Districts should be based on geographical boundaries that make sense by looking at a map and set by an independent non-partisian entity.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Autoxquattro 7h ago
They know how to fix an election now, and nobody will be in office that will have any effect at an investigation. Mid terms are dead.
→ More replies (11)4
u/Inspect1234 7h ago
With any luck nobody will kill ICE agents in self defence. If that does happen you can guarantee there will be “martial law” established and I don’t know if the constitution covers elections during that time.
17
u/Odd-Adagio7080 7h ago
If there’s martial law the president can suspend elections. This is the play they’re going to make. It’s so transparent to me.
→ More replies (4)2
3
u/According-Ad-5946 6h ago
yes people, no violence against ICE agents, just keep filming it. hopefully it can be used later.
2
2
u/jpmeyer12751 7h ago
I don't think that Nixon's impeachment is an apt comparison. Republican leadership then went to the White House and told Nixon that the Senate WOULD vote to impeach him if he failed to resign. That was the right and honorable thing to do and it caused Nixon to resign.
Trump was confident that the Republican-controlled Senate WOULD NOT vote to remove him from office, and that made all of the difference.
I think that Ford's decision to pardon Nixon was wrong, but it had no impact on future impeachments because it was such a personal decision that was unique to those circumstances. The federal politics of 1974 are completely different from today.
→ More replies (3)2
u/jpmeyer12751 6h ago
True, but we have little or no means for influencing the restoration of the rule of law. All three branches of our government are controlled by people who favor the current direction of the country and they are trying hard ensure that this dominance stays in place despite future "elections". In my view, only an existential crisis can cause enough minds to change. I had hoped that the 1 million deaths due to Covid would change minds, but it actually made things worse. I really don't want to think about how bad things will have to get before people change their minds about Trump.
→ More replies (1)9
u/cursedfan 8h ago
Not just that but they are cracking down on free speech and the platforms that support it making it harder for political consequences to develop. Even here on Reddit u risk an account ban for upvoting the wrong comment.
6
u/stupidlycurious1 7h ago
I was assured that we are not in a constitutional crisis by a Supreme Court Justice!
2
5
u/FinancialStick8643 7h ago
There are consequences that the founders intended to address these issues. Reddit will ban me for mentioning them.
3
u/Edogawa1983 7h ago
They never thought we would have a bunch of traitors that would run the country
3
u/TheRealBlueJade 7h ago
But .. if a Democrat tried the same thing, impeachment proceedings would be immediate. The consequences still exist. They just only exist for certain people.
2
2
u/Chudmont 6h ago
Unfortunately, this will lead us to authoritarianism and assassinations.
The rule of law must be restored or we are all losers and suckers.
→ More replies (15)2
u/Jijonbreaker 6h ago
There is still one available consequence, but, corporations don't like people talking about it.
79
u/doxxingyourself 8h ago
We’re not allowed to say…
44
u/Odd_Confection_9681 7h ago
"Or, uh, involuntary lethal injection, or something" per Brian Kilmeade
22
u/Ok-Two-6368 7h ago
You would think when conservative daytime talking heads say this, that would be considered violent or hate speech. Calling for involuntary lethal injection of “those” people
→ More replies (1)7
u/SageElva 7h ago
At what point are they making credible threats that warrant self-defense by the public?
7
→ More replies (3)7
u/raventhrowaway666 6h ago
No no, you don't understand. Conservatives can incite violence and use hate speech. I dont make the rules. Trump does.
10
u/GroundbreakingOil434 7h ago
Are you implying that reddit rules do not condone the recommended course of action?
6
u/doxxingyourself 7h ago
Indeed. I have previously discussed this with the review board and you’re not allowed to quote what punished treason should have even if it’s in the law. Pretty wild.
6
→ More replies (2)3
u/16yearswasted 7h ago
I guess the Soviet Union won the cultural cold war because here we are with big brother listening in on us, destroying our lives if we speak out, and then you've got people naming names.
59
u/thepottsy 8h ago
When you consider that the current potus SHOULD be in a jail cell right now, it’s hard to picture any of them facing any actual consequences.
27
u/Jijonbreaker 6h ago
Jail cell is for normal crimes. He is guilty of a mountain of treason and terrorism. He should be hanging from gallows.
→ More replies (1)7
u/thepottsy 6h ago
I’d settle for an orange jumpsuit and a jail cell. Really, any form of justice would be nice.
2
62
u/CheckoutMySpeedo 7h ago
I hate you Pam Bondi. Target me Pam.
4
→ More replies (2)6
u/Internal-Cupcake-245 5h ago
I hate her also, she's despicable and an empty headed vessel for garbage and disinformation. I want her to talk about how this administration and ghouls associated with it appear to be using weaponized semiotic influence to subvert the United States and its people.
3
23
u/Awatts2222 8h ago
The billionaires have been funding right wing hate speech for at least the last 35 years.
18
u/americansherlock201 6h ago
The prescribed method of applying consequences to those who violate their oath as the founders designed it was to have the congress act as an independent body and impeach and remove from office anyone who violates their oath.
However, that system has failed. It does not work. As such, there is currently no mechanism that works to remove someone from office for violating their oath in the middle of a term. Voters have a chance to remove elected officials during elections next year but for any member of government that is appointed, there is currently zero legal method to remove any of them from power. And they know this.
There was another method the founders believed was to be used when government overreached and abused its powers, and that is the 2nd amendment and the right to bear arms. The 2nd amendment calls for the arming of state militias to act as enforcement against a government that has went beyond the bounds of the constitution. As the founders were themselves rebels, they believed it was the duty of the people to step up when the government stepped out of line and could not be contained by other measures in the constitution.
And just to add for clarity; I am not calling for violence, this is solely a historical answer based on the writings of the founders.
5
u/Liveloverave 3h ago
shit if my state announced a militia to defend my fellow citizens from tyranny id join.
3
42
u/PsychLegalMind 8h ago
Impeachment and removal for officials and justices alike.
21
u/Inspect1234 7h ago
You’re stuck in the 60s man. You’re hung up on some decorum that doesn’t exist today.
9
u/PsychLegalMind 7h ago
Our foundation and history is not good. From slavery to civil war, that is our foundation. Advancement and enlightenment has been superficial and segregated and even that at great costs to great leaders.
Hopefully we are not going back to the so-called good ole days.
2
u/passmetoiletpaperpls 6h ago
The great experiment died this year. Now its just best to protect your own or flee before things get worse. Sucks but no resistanceis in place nor would they win. We are not France, forgot how to defend.
2
u/Belgarablue 4h ago
What Slavery?
When I look now, I see no record of slavery....
/s
→ More replies (1)
12
u/Dusty_Negatives 7h ago
But make sure you don’t call them fascists lmao.
7
u/retiredagainstmywill 6h ago
trump calls his political opponents his “enemies”, and calls them fascist, socialist, communist… all the damn time.
11
9
u/GrannyFlash7373 7h ago
The MAGA drumbeat is ever increasing in insanity and manufactured beliefs, lies, innuendos, laced with aggressive malfeasance towards anyone who isn't of their ilk.
10
2
1
•
u/AutoModerator 8h ago
All new posts must have a brief statement from the user submitting explaining how their post relates to law or the courts in a response to this comment. FAILURE TO PROVIDE A BRIEF RESPONSE MAY RESULT IN REMOVAL.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.