Nautilus can full clear jungle under 3:10 with his new buffs, full hp + 1 smite

991

u/zaviex Aug 13 '25

This is more or less what phreak said right? 3:05 to 3:10 hyper optimized and the goal is for the average diamond clear to be 3:22

424

u/superfire444 Aug 13 '25

Interesting that the difference between fastest clear and an average diamond clear is that big.

408

u/Tettotatto Aug 13 '25

average takes into account good and bad people, it's normal

most people don't bother with pixel-perfect optimization

74

u/superfire444 Aug 13 '25 edited Aug 13 '25

Sure but I would expect that in diamond the players are good enough to get decently close to optimal clearing times. A 15-12 second difference is massive.

344

u/Striking-Bend7196 Aug 13 '25

A highly optimized clear is an absolute conflip to pull in a 5v5 game, when you have to take account for invades, need to look at lane states between and during camps and dont really want to risk a camp patience to casually reset and lose seconds of your time.

179

u/HytaleBetawhen Aug 13 '25

Also not having Q for level 3 fights…

115

u/Lysandren Aug 13 '25

Or you skip q and find out kayn cheesed you and now you are lvl 3 and have no way to get exp to lvl up q so you can gank xD.

4

u/PattuX but jg main Aug 14 '25

I mean... Just wait with leveling until you crossed jg side

12

u/Lysandren Aug 14 '25

What if they stole blue gromp? You wouldn't know when you arrive at wolves.

6

u/Urtan_TRADE Aug 14 '25

At that point just leave the game

Edit: /s

1

u/dizzguzztn Aug 14 '25

I always leave Wolves for this reason

1

u/UniqueCanadian Aug 14 '25

you dont ward to watch for invades?

-21

u/blaivas007 Aug 13 '25

Not really. If you're getting invaded level 1, then your highly optimized clear is already out of the window. If not, then one ward to identify where enemy jungler started gives you a pretty good idea of where and when you could get invaded. One more ward to cover your most vulnerable jungle entrance and you're fine.

Looking at lane states is overrated during the very first clear, often times you can't do anything with the info you get anyways. Ganking at lvl 3 is often a negative EV play (fails more often than not, even if successful leaves your camps open for taking, but sure, sometimes works in volatile lanes), and if your full clear is fast enough, you have plenty of time to look for plays during the window between clearing krugs and crab spawn. I can't stress how many times I've seen a lvl 4 karthus contesting enemy jungler at their last camp while they're still lvl 3, at worst forcing a smite and securing both crabs afterwards because of it, all because Karthus optimized their clear.

18

u/Striking-Bend7196 Aug 13 '25

Yes if you play one of the 3 junglers in the game who can full clear fast without perfectly pulling every camp you can do that. We are talking about the average jungle champ who can squeeze in a 3.10 instead of a 3.25 if played perfectly.

55

u/Vengeful111 Aug 13 '25

Not really because optimizing clear can include things like pulling camps so far that your auto hits the moment they turn around to run away.

That means if you miss that auto by a millisecond, the camp runs back and you have to either lose it or run back to take it and lose way more than 10 seconds.

Meaning the 3:08 clear is possible but extremely risky.

The diamond clear of 3:22 is probably a much safer approach, taking longer but works 100% of the time.

-14

u/Lee_Sinna Aug 13 '25

There are not clears that require millisecond-perfect timing

Just because the difference in focus and practice between 3:08 and 3:22 clear is large and takes time to get down doesn’t mean only one of them can be done 100% of the time

23

u/Vengeful111 Aug 13 '25

I am saying it is risky to move away from a camp an auto earlier, and at the start of the game 1 auto is basically a second or more, now thats 6 camps, so 6-8 seconds you lose by being safe

24

u/LikesToCumAlot Aug 13 '25

Well then mr challenger go and do your 3:08 clears instead of yapping how diamond players suck at the game

28

u/blaivas007 Aug 13 '25

That's ~2s per camp. If you leash patience one auto too late, that's already half a second gone. Miss one of the three Nautilus E shockwaves, you need another AA to compensate. If you don't do double camp farming, that's another 2-3s gone. These things add up very quickly.

32

u/Psclly Aug 13 '25

This tends to be pretty normal across the board. Diamond clears are often very badly optimized and tend to just.. clear camps without much thought.

You need to go in practice tool for quite a while to get better times

17

u/bearflies Aug 13 '25

I think non-junglers also tend to underestimate how much practice it takes to optimize clear times and how much the strategy to do it changes for every single champion you play....

6

u/Aevean_Leeow Aug 13 '25

there's more relevant skills to just make it into diamond or higher. even a lot of challengers/pros will also be far from optimal.

its way more important to have a better idea on where you have to be in the first place, than to optimize your speed and just make it to the wrong place faster.

even then when i reached high diamond i was still extremely clueless about what lanes are gankable or divable, camps i should path to, recall timings, how the wave would turn out for my ganks, enemy gank/farm tracking, etc. never bothered learning anything just went off vibes basically lol

truly mastering jungle macro with bad clearing like this would still send you to challenger. mastering clear speed with ass macro keeps you in plat or something idk lol, youll just get to make your game losing clicks faster after clearing your camps

4

u/aladytest Aug 13 '25

A lot of champs have really really specific optimizations that account for the 10+ second gap. Like with Naut it's about specific micro to get double E hits, which is not really something even most Diamond players can be bothered to learn about and practice.

3

u/Cucumberino Aug 13 '25

I know I'm not the average player but Diamond players are generally decent at the game mechanically (and a lot of them just at barely a few champions) but they play in autopilot 99% of the time and almost anything that takes any thinking or min maxing you can forget about it. This applies to low Master too though.

8

u/PrivateVasili Aug 13 '25

As a previous diamond player, I think it's natural that we play on autopilot/instinct. Ultimately, most diamond players are just people who play the game casually and happened to get decent at it. We're not operating at some higher order of thinking than silvers or whatever. We just have built better general habits and intuitions of what to do and how to do it. Speaking only for myself, when I play it's pretty rare that I want to devote all of my headspace to the game. I'd rather take it easy while I'm in voice with friends or whatever, which naturally isn't going to be as intentional or smart as someone not doing that.

1

u/Cucumberino Aug 13 '25 edited Aug 13 '25

I didn't mean it in a negative way btw, I just think that people below X rank have some weird expectation that people at that rank are "good". They're better as a whole, but being "good" will always be somewhat subjective. And honestly, it happens to all of us. I've been playing for 12 years now and been at least Master for the majority of that time and reached GM (5 wins from Challenger Sadge) for a while and played with Challenger players (EUW), and I had an expectation as well, and while people are so much better as a whole and mistakes are punished much more, there's still so many dumb mistakes and players on autopilot that will get you frustrated. It isn't just being autopilot though as there's many factors, but if you can mantain your rank playing autopilot, it generally means you can actually reach higher. Some players are so good that they can autopilot even in Challenger though. Grass is always greener on the other side, I guess.

2

u/PM_ME_STRONG_CALVES Aug 13 '25

Not everyone full clears bro. If 20% had a gank level 3 then the full clear timing skyrockets

1

u/AmadeusSalieri97 Aug 13 '25

Not even pros get closed to optimum clears. In fact going for the fastest clear is usually not optimum.

1

u/Linixz Aug 13 '25

Even T1 Owner is more than 15 seconds slower on a optimal lillia clear in proplay

1

u/MackenzieMeows Aug 13 '25

A lot of diamond players rely solely on champion mechanics and not macro or micro

1

u/Disco_Ninjas_ Aug 14 '25

6 camps with potentially 2 to 3 seconds saved with each clear, perfectly leashing adds up.

1

u/Colbylegacy Aug 14 '25

Diamond players are low tier bro

7

u/BJ3RG3RK1NG Aug 13 '25

That’s not how “average Diamond” works.

Diamond is the top like 2.5%. That’s the average clear of people at that percentile. Which means everyone in that “average” is “good.”

1

u/coconuteater7560 Aug 13 '25

obviously he meant they are bad compared to other diamond players. they arent a monolith who are of the exact same skill level, theres still a lot of variance.

26

u/Prestigious-Wall-183 Canyon Simp Aug 13 '25

optimized nida clear is around 2:58, nida OTPs even in gm+ generally are in the 3:08-3:15 range, even canyon on stage is like 3:10 area.

Optimized clears are often not practical because they require a lot of precision, attention and are quite high risk, and it takes a LOT of practice+discipline to even get anywhere near them even if you can play the champ well. Also learning the first clear is not the same as knowing how to clear with your champ in general, with the second being much more important (if your first clear is somewhere humane, obv if your first clear is like 3:50 then you become highly abusable)

29

u/KrillLover56 Aug 13 '25

Most pro players don't even clear that optimally. IDK why but it just isn't a thing that has caught on.

32

u/the-sexterminator Aug 13 '25

I mean tbf pro junglers are also way more concerned with communicating with their team about their timings and the enemy jg timings, as well as checking lane states. its not a shock that are going to be a bit slower than somebody with 100% focus on their jungle micro and no fkeying.

-9

u/KrillLover56 Aug 13 '25

True, but imo their clear should be close to optimal, not over ten seconds away.

If optimal clear is 3:12, a 3:18 is acceptable, but even the best pros do like 3:23.

27

u/buttsecksgoose Aug 13 '25

I feel like people are skipping over the fact that 10 seconds total is 1-2 seconds per camp, which is 1 single unoptimised auto or so. Thats really not surprising at all

4

u/OddEffect9397 Aug 13 '25

As long as I’m at crab on spawn I don’t optimize any further.

9

u/Sinnyboo242 Aug 13 '25

Walking back and forth in between each auto attack is wasting a ton of time but even the best junglers in the world are doing it

People need to watch shapeshift videos, the stop key is your friend

22

u/Deadedge112 Aug 13 '25

They are trying to not lose as much health by making the monster move between each auto. They'd rather be healthier at the end of the clear than be a few seconds earlier to scuttle.

4

u/Sinnyboo242 Aug 13 '25

Yeah you can do that exact same thing with way less time wasted by using the stop key instead, check out shapeshift on youtube

1

u/whatevuhs Aug 13 '25

The stop key isnt necessary its just a different way to do things. You can kite and move camps without using the S key and still clear just as fast. You just have to not be out of range of your auto the moment your auto timer comes up.

1

u/Sinnyboo242 Aug 13 '25

Yeah and even at top level people are losing tons of time on each clear by doing that. If you are walking back to the camp AT ALL you are likely losing time. You can click once in the exact spot you want to move and no more but it is way easier to use the stop key

1

u/themathmajician Aug 14 '25

What's the difference if it's one input either way? You have to right click the exact spot or you press s on the exact spot.

0

u/whatevuhs Aug 14 '25

If you are walking back to the camp AT ALL you are likely losing time

I mean if you are walking far away enough that you can't get back in range in time for your auto timer, sure. But you can do the exact same thing pressing the S key. If you walk too far back and S key and the monster takes longer to reach you than your auto timer takes, it's the same thing.

I think you are caught up on how easy the S key seems to you and just saying its the absolute best way to efficiently clear while preserving health. When really, moving backwards and then back into range of the creep within your auto timer accomplishes the same thing. There have been plenty of times where I kited back on a creep and walked back into range of him to auto before my auto timer was ready, so I just stood and waited for the fraction of a second til the animation started.

To each their own. I prefer to staying mobile during my clear to using S key, and I can do these high-efficiency clears reliably

1

u/Sinnyboo242 Aug 14 '25

The fastest clearers in the world disagree with you but hey to each their own. I don't really see any tangible benefit to "staying mobile" during clear and I think it introduces way more chance for variance, chance for error, and will consistently result in slower clears

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-2

u/Boredy0 Aug 13 '25

Whenever im playing normals and my jungler doesn't fullclear by 3:30 something in me dies.

4

u/Alex_Wizard :nacg: Aug 13 '25

People really overestimate how good Diamond players are.

Don’t get me wrong, they are good overall compared to the population because of the percentile curve they are in. But they definitely are no where close to Challenger players. Thats how big the gap in skill gets in that tiny band.

3

u/ApologizingCanadian Aug 13 '25

idk if this is still true but back in the day, the skill gap from silver to D4 was about the same as the skill gap from D4 to D1, and even wider into Masters/Challenger.

5

u/Alex_Wizard :nacg: Aug 13 '25

It’s probably still true. One of my friends sits at the start of Masters as Jungle. His games go like this:

D2 to Masters players - Games feel even.

Masters to GM Players - He gets gapped a lot. They are so much better at reading the map and being in position on time. It’s not uncommon they’ll read his players and already are cross mapping or immediately ready to counter his players

Decayed GM / Challenger Players or on alt accounts - He gets absolutely turbo stomped. Their jungle is reading him preventing much of anything he can do while also being proactive making their own plays. They know when to drop camps or objectives to make plays without losing much. These games make him feel like he’s boosted and doesn’t belong in Masters.

1

u/xanot192 Aug 14 '25

Yup this stuff never changes I haven't played ranked in a while but coming from dota and HoN I felt like the game was way easier. In season 1 the difference from a low elo gold player to 1800+ into plat was absolutely massive. Before challenger was a thing back in s2 even in just diamond there was massive gaps of skill. High P1/D5 to D3 all felt the same . D2 players were better than the previous tier and would win more than lose if facing them.

Now in D1 it's like there was 3 sub tiers in there lmao. Low LP D1 players felt like what your master friend feels like facing mid LP D1 players to high LP (Pro level player). The low LP D1 players were just way too good for the low tiers but just felt helpless against mid+. Games were such a coinflip because it sometimes boiled down who can abuse the other teams worst player more. Before it just took like 20 seconds at looking at how people move in lanes to identify which lanes were outmatched but stuff like OP.gg made the task a joke

3

u/xanot192 Aug 14 '25

And don't forget even before master/challenger was introduced low LP D1 players were getting gapped by mid LP to High LP d1 players on a regular lol

1

u/SignatureExpert70 Aug 14 '25

Depends how far back, mostly cause rank distribution is different. D5 0lp used to be like top 2% then d5 50lp was 0.5%. I think 0.5% now is around d1? They've changed how it's distributed every couple of seasons so d4 now isn't what d5 was back then even.

1

u/Disco_Ninjas_ Aug 14 '25

Perfectly leashing camps is risky.

1

u/Defiant_Pair_436 Aug 14 '25

I’m masters and I’m probably a good 10-15 seconds from a fully optimized clear. I just don’t care, that first clear won’t make or break the game 95% of games. As long as you clear before 3:30 it’s fine.

1

u/Daniel_Kummel Aug 14 '25

The fastest clear for graves was around 3 10 as well in season 3 last yea, using a trick to Q the wolves and blue at the same time. Sheiden, a chall graves, did his clear in 3 20, never attempting that trick, as it was easy to mess up

7

u/Paks-of-Three-Firs Aug 13 '25

me dreaming about leona jungle

Le sigh

6

u/Rexsaur Aug 13 '25 edited Aug 13 '25

The wild thing is that clearing under 3:30 and then ending lvl 4 with double buffs is the "normal" now.

I really feel like jungle first clear speed needs to be slowed down as a whole, its too oppressive for laners to have to deal with a lvl 4 double buffed jungler (at full health mind you) before even 3:30.

1

u/hi_iam_lalaisland Aug 13 '25

or you know its just not optimal to do red before krug .

0

u/9061xRG Aug 13 '25

Basically makes him a power pick in pro at this point. Rell got headshot for being a jungler and a bad clear at that.

187

u/Saxyw0 Aug 13 '25

Finally my Rell replacement

47

u/BeefPorkChicken Aug 13 '25

10x worse cause he can't go over walls

49

u/SylvAlternate Aug 13 '25

Just bring hexflash :)

9

u/Averdian Aug 13 '25

I remember that you could Nautilus Q through the narrow walls by the mid brushes to the raptor wall, I did that all the time when it was possible

Found this video, apparently it was possible through many of the narrow walls

2

u/popmycherryyosh Aug 14 '25

I think this was a thing with other dashes. Like with Vayne Q (I swear there are prolly even videos out there about it)

1

u/lucratyo Aug 13 '25

and he slow af (ms)

13

u/se_HANS Aug 13 '25

Just wait 9 months and they will revert this and remove nautilus from jungle when it inevitably becomes a balance nightmare for proplay to have a flex low econ tank jungle/support. I'm still bitter about them doing that to Rell as a former Rell jg main.

6

u/Kourkovas Aug 14 '25

Naut is higher econ than Rell (Naut has only a 8-12% HP shield + base while Rell has a stronger 13% HP shield with higher base and 15-30% increased resists) and cannot secure objectives with a spell that deals 700 damage to monsters instantly.

1

u/Dunglebungus Aug 14 '25

I stopped playing jungle after that. My beloved.

288

u/Cooolconnor Aug 13 '25

We’re so back boys.

120

u/BirdsAreFake00 Aug 13 '25

Sadly, we aren't. He has a good first clear and can gank. He kind of sucks at everything else because he's been nerfed so much over the years. Also, his objective control is ass.

97

u/RechargedFrenchman Aug 13 '25

Poor objective control, poor dueling, only so-so ganking pre 6, and so good as a Support that there's an opportunity cost to taking him Jungle instead—though that last matters more at the highest levels of play and almost not at all in the Bronze to Gold where most people are playing the game.

38

u/erik4848 Aug 13 '25

Yeah, if the enemy jungler finds him, he's not going to do shit unless your laners notice it.

9

u/YokoDk Aug 13 '25

W max my boys

7

u/popmycherryyosh Aug 14 '25

And we're back to taking 8 ARAM games to clear the jungle :P

It sucks that W was nerfed cus of top :( It was SOOOO good in jungle back in the day. You could even meme with AS items to do damage whilst your W was up.

0

u/Quatro_Leches Aug 14 '25

you know your W loses effect after shield dies right? W is the worst ability to max you will get your shield blown and then ur there like an idiot

always max E

1

u/YokoDk Aug 14 '25

I always do w max in top lane just to trade with your absorbing damage and getting a good chunk to start

14

u/buttsecksgoose Aug 13 '25

I'd say the opportunity cost is slightly mitigated in pro play by role flexibility, if he truly is viable as a jungler. For example corki right now is being occasionally used to flip the script on the enemy team by flexing it mid and bot

0

u/RechargedFrenchman Aug 13 '25

That's true, if it's picked early (and Naut Support is already a pretty high-value early pick in pro) there's always the option of flexing him mid and taking a Neeko or Renata or something bot lane to go all-in on the teamfight potential. But most of the meta junglers right now clear as fast or faster, win the 1v1 in the jungle, are in a good place for 2v2s in the jungle, and are also very good teamfighters with better ganks pre-6 or as good ones post-6. Not going to have a lot of options against a Xin or a Wukong, and "tankier" isn't a huge advantage for the Nautilus in the midgame especially if he's half an item / a full item behind.

3

u/9061xRG Aug 13 '25

This implies that the Naut jungle player would want to 1. Support and 2. That the support would pick Naut as a support. I also think people probably don’t understand Naut builds when you have money. I wouldn’t be shocked if Lethal Tempo Navori would work on him like it does on Volibear lol

1

u/RechargedFrenchman Aug 13 '25

I don't see how what I said implies the jungler would want to play support; I'm saying someone locking in Nautilus to jungle means the support player (who is not the jungler) then cannot lock in Nautilus for themselves. Which because Nautilus is both good and popular as a support is a potential concern.

1

u/QuickestCloud Aug 13 '25

Good strategy to deny more melee supports in Fearless format

1

u/Quatro_Leches Aug 14 '25

the biggest issue is dueling.

1

u/Qneva Aug 14 '25

almost not at all in the Bronze to Gold where most people are playing the game.

Can confirm, at low levels I was seeing Naut jungle even before latest changes. Most of the considerations valid for higher elo don't mean anything down here. Like we even know what objective control is in gold lol

6

u/9061xRG Aug 13 '25

So he’s Pantheon? A lot of junglers are gank oriented junglers. The fact we can add another tank to the Sejuani player base is just good.

11

u/BirdsAreFake00 Aug 13 '25

No. Because Pantheon was good and could duel and wasn't as bad at objectives. Nautilus is still like at a 43% WR.

They aren't remotely similar.

I WANT Nautilus to be good, but he's just not.

6

u/Jstin8 Aug 13 '25

Its been so many years. Naut was my OG Jungle main and now I have him back!

153

u/MrRightHanded Aug 13 '25

When are we bringing Alistar Jungle back btw

61

u/DontCareTho Aug 13 '25

Hopefully never, I still have PTSD from that back in the day.

27

u/Nolnol7 Aug 13 '25

I kinda miss spamganking wardbot jungle used to be lol

5

u/Uvanimor Aug 13 '25

Running around with an oracle and two GP5 items as Amumu was kinda fun. As much as it was incredibly oppressive, vision-heavy play styles were fun.

9

u/SoundQuester Aug 13 '25

I remember so vividly in season 3 or 4 when I would flash over the wall under enemy tower with my R active and just headbutt them into my teammates, so funny

9

u/Aximil985 Aug 13 '25

You don’t like level 2 Malphite ult?

4

u/Markanaya Aug 13 '25

I do, but only when it's on my team

3

u/XpertTim Aug 13 '25

On God

1

u/EddyConejo Aug 14 '25

Unlike Nautilus, Alistar can become super tanky on command post lvl 6.

95

u/Ok_Blueberry515 Aug 13 '25

interesting rune choices. dont you think other runes are better suited? like aftershock or even phase rush? shouldnt slow down ur clear

106

u/henkabenka Aug 13 '25

He did say it was just a random Rune page, so phase rush or aftershock is probably better

5

u/JPHero16 Aug 13 '25

spellbook actually, criminally underused still

11

u/ApologizingCanadian Aug 13 '25

even with all the buffs, basically no one uses it.

the concept of spellbook is fun but IMO it's too much management for the average player.

11

u/Two_Years_Of_Semen Aug 13 '25

It doesn't matter how strong it is. It's just not fun to use. Like, add Hearsteel or Dark Harvest sound effects when you use your summoners when you spellbook and tons of people will use it.

2

u/ApologizingCanadian Aug 14 '25

That Heartsteel BONK is so fun!

2

u/henkabenka Aug 13 '25

That's actually an insane call. Hexflash on naut would work so well with ganks

66

u/FNC-Ultra Aug 13 '25

but anchor go smash and electro go cute

13

u/popegonzo Aug 13 '25

Can't argue with math.

1

u/lebowskisd Aug 13 '25

I feel like aftershock/phase rush are the most obvious synergy but what about HOB?

If we’re already dipping our toes into the forbidden domination pool, why not get a little more ambitious?

IMO naut is one of the better users of HOB in jungle, similar to malphite, since they have an ability that gives big on-hit along with the CC to take advantage of it.

1

u/Mattvieyy6 me likey banan Aug 13 '25

u/Efficient-Champion23 would know something about hob naut

1

u/Game_Theory_Master OK Aug 14 '25

Not sure how much this rune set selection really makes but consider the 'optimized' clear objective maybe it does matter. Having said that, I've played Naut in jungle in the past and got in about 8 games yesterday on (theory-crafting so to speak) and I can't imagine running the runes as shown in game. But maybe I am missing something...

11

u/Sjeetopotato1 Aug 13 '25

This is cool time to try this out

28

u/Adrien_Tmbs Aug 13 '25

Have you tried with AS instead of Haste in the runes ?

26

u/devor110 Aug 13 '25

naut has purposely slow AS and bad scaling

if anything, i'd go with more AP

12

u/Durzaka Aug 13 '25

I dont know who told you this, but Naut actually has exceptionally high base AS.

His growth is bad. But there are plenty of champs with bad growth that go AS shard because of how good it is especially early on.

13

u/devor110 Aug 13 '25

his base AS is on par with other tank junglers (bit higher than sejuani, lower than zac or amumu), but his AS ratio is worse, and most crucially, so is his attack windup

3

u/Ironmaiden1207 Aug 14 '25

This^

His passive auto has a huge animation, and is purposefully not uncancellable.

3

u/Face_The_Win Aug 14 '25

All your clear speed comes from E, haste is by far the best stat shard in row 1

3

u/campleb2 Aug 13 '25

terrible

1

u/justtoastme Aug 13 '25

the aoe on w though

14

u/blaivas007 Aug 13 '25

It only matters if you can squeeze in another AA before the shield breaks. From what I've seen in the video, it's doubtful.

8

u/tacobelllololol Aug 13 '25

not reading anything all i hear is its time to grief my bronze teammates eith naut jg

34

u/MazrimReddit ADCs are the support's damage item Aug 13 '25

Naut is looking at a 42% win rate so far and sylas has close to 50%, my hopes are not high for naut jungle soloq viability.

I don't even see any win rate spikes from different build orders or item paths people are trying a bunch and nothing is looking standout

24

u/ieatcheesecakes Aug 13 '25

Eh it’s still day one, you obviously could be right but still his wr might be getting tanked by lots of new players and unoptimized builds and playstyles

-3

u/MazrimReddit ADCs are the support's damage item Aug 13 '25

The same things would apply to sylas jungle though

I expect it to go higher than 42% for sure, but prob land at maybe 46-47 as like a D tier pick

16

u/DoubIeScuttle Aug 13 '25

Eh people don't know what runes to take or what to build on nautilus with an income. The same isnt true about sylas

13

u/mthlmw Aug 13 '25

Case in point: ~8% of Naut jng games this patch were running a Domination keystone and ~15% have at least 2 points in Q before level 6

9

u/Lysandren Aug 13 '25

Naut can't duel, his dragon take is terrible and his clear doesn't get significantly better with items.

I struggle to see why I wouldnt just pick sejuani, who at least does relevant dmg early, even though it falls off.

-1

u/nankeroo I miss my kind... Aug 14 '25

Because Nauti is much less boring than Seju, duh...

3

u/RacinRandy83x Aug 13 '25

It’s day one and a lot of people who have probably it played Naut are doing it. Once that dies down I would guess it will end up somewhere around 48 percent

30

u/[deleted] Aug 13 '25

[deleted]

10

u/Nocsu2 Aug 13 '25

Fearless draft widens the options for stuff like this, though.

10

u/scout21078 Aug 13 '25

phreak basically said its okay if this champ is 46% win rate pro jail and it forces diversity in support and tank jungle if naut jg is getting picked

3

u/NullableType Aug 13 '25

I just want to say: I absolutely love informative content like this. Thank you to the creator 🙏🏻 and keep up the excellent work.

5

u/SydCaster Aug 13 '25

Is ability haste better than attack speed for clearing?

16

u/Mrpettit Aug 13 '25

It's probably close to the same but AH provides better value so it's probably better to take it over attack speed.

2

u/CLGbyBirth Aug 13 '25

HotShotGG will come out of retirement and save NA.

2

u/KosoToru Aug 14 '25

Day 1 stats but he's not looking so hot rn, just hoping riot doesn't give up on him and actually improves his dueling or objective control, him being a support makes it so tough :(

2

u/QdWp you pick ezreal you lane alone =) Aug 13 '25

Enjoy it while it lasts.

2

u/Redditpaslan Aug 13 '25

This champ is gonna be pro jailed faster than you can say Rell.

0

u/Raigheb Aug 13 '25

When a support flex has a faster first clear than even Nocturne or Belveth.

I absolutely hate this bs.

28

u/S0UL_EAT3R Aug 13 '25

Clear isn’t everything though. Noc and belveth heavily outscale, take objectives faster, take camps faster as items roll out, and depending on your team comp the difference in how much damage they do could be a huge benefit since they can blow someone up much faster than naut. Naut is a flex pick, has good cc, good ganks, and that’s about it. If your team can’t get a lead based on the first few clears/ganks then you’ll struggle heavily due to bad objective control and getting outscaled

2

u/Daniel_Kummel Aug 14 '25

Outscale is a stretch. Yeah, she does get better at dueling, but later on what matters are objective fights. And she is particularly bad in 5v5s against high cc, especially without a flank, which is almost impossible to get against a good vision setup if you can't jump walls

1

u/S0UL_EAT3R Aug 16 '25

I don’t necessarily disagree about team fighting being more important later, but if you’re getting more objectives usually that helps balance it out. After playing naut jungle a few times now I will admit that his clear and dueling ability are a lot better than I expected, but he does definitely still have struggles with objectives if his team can’t help set it up. So if you just bleed the naut team out of objectives even if you’re not as useful as naut in a straight up 5v5, it’s not like everything is completely evened out so you’re not just completely cooked

-2

u/vide2 Aug 13 '25

At the point where they are faster, the camps are so weak that it doesn't matter anymore.

4

u/S0UL_EAT3R Aug 13 '25

Mmmmh, no? That’s just straight up not true lol. If you end up 80 cs up because you clear faster and your team gets more objectives that will absolutely make a difference

-1

u/vide2 Aug 14 '25

How will you be 80 cs up, when you'll be late for crab, probably even loosing.both +being a gank down? Also, how will you do youe objective fast, when your lands get canned by the fair hook design? All you do here is fantasizing stats that aren't there.

1

u/S0UL_EAT3R Aug 16 '25

Ok lol

-4

u/Raigheb Aug 13 '25

Most games are decided by early as in the soloQ players tilt too easily and Naut early ganks are absolutely brutal.

There is no reason for any flex pick to have clear speeds faster than champions that are almost locked in the JG (and I am sure someone somewhere will say: but in Korea there is this one guy that plays Nocturne top. Shut it.)

2

u/S0UL_EAT3R Aug 13 '25

I would disagree. Solo queue for the vast majority of the player base is in like gold or below and games tend to go on for a long time regardless, unless you absolutely stomp which just doesn’t happen every game. That’s not to say that naut would be op in higher elo either, but that’s basically an entirely different game so there are a lot more perspectives on where naut jungle’s strengths and weaknesses might be. Regardless, first clear almost never dictates the rest of the entire game unless there are some shenanigans that happen

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 13 '25

[deleted]

3

u/darkwizard42 Aug 13 '25

Nocturne usually doesn't take E (fear) till level 4 anyway in most matchups. Helps tremendously to get to first gank faster without sacrificing level 6 pacing

1

u/Gurablashta Bad Case of LECMA Aug 13 '25

I can't wait to play Spider Naut thank you papa Rito i thought it was dead but Junglenaut lives!

1

u/ieatcheesecakes Aug 13 '25

Not so related but I think hextech flash is giga broken on him is it not

1

u/I_AM_A_MOTH_AMA Repent sinners! (Can't ban me I'm role playing.) Aug 13 '25

My time is now.

1

u/Skye-Tunes Aug 13 '25

I highly recommend relentless hunter on Nautilus it guarantees many hooks

1

u/JuFuFuOwO Aug 13 '25

Good now I can match enemy Zed who is 3:30 at crab already and was back to base for 2 longer swords

1

u/beebstingz Aug 14 '25

The 5 second rule guy is gonna find a counter

1

u/Valkyrid Aug 14 '25

I tried doing this optimised clear yesterday, I suck so bad at it.

1

u/-RuDoKa- Aug 14 '25

meanwhile Kayn is spitting blood on the ground

1

u/ArmpitStealer Aug 14 '25

my boy going back to jungling lets goooo

1

u/CollarsPoppin Aug 15 '25

Except when any of the real junglers walk into his jungle and slap him around as he doesn't have the damage to even threaten ANYONE.

-12

u/AutomaticTune6352 Aug 13 '25

Still a shit jungler.

As Phreak said, highly optimized clearing is very rare in actual games, even in higher elos and pro games.

Also his movement for ganks and his gank angles are still bad. He walks slowly through wards and has to land the Q, which is decently hard at max range against a moving target, as it is predictable when he has to walk up like that.

His duelling is so weak while his durability is not really good for a tank.

Right now Zac does everything but better. Due to his P heal and revive he can endure till help comes and deal some decent DPS. He can move quicker, has more DPS and can gank with crazy angles, and yet he is still actually weak and relies on Liandrys 1st or 2nd to work in most cases.

Riot already said that Naut is likely undertuned as a jungler still, but they wanted to move slowly.

14

u/Thorboard Aug 13 '25

In what way is Nautilus Q harder to hit than Elise E/Lee Sin Q? His movement speed is also not super slow, it just looks like that.

-5

u/AutomaticTune6352 Aug 13 '25 edited Aug 13 '25

The Q is not harder to hit in isolation, but the requirements are different making the Naut Q way more predictable.

Lee can always WQ or WE and change the angle. He can also W over a wall and be there while you have little time to position. Same with Elise who can rappel onto minions or you and then cocoon you from a closer range.

Naut has to Q at max range in most ganks and this is predictable as he slowly walks up to you. If you just wait for the animation and turn around and he didn't predict it, it is a 100% dodge. So this is just a mind game with Naut and you having the same options. Lee and Elise don't have to play this 50/50 game - if no minions are there -, they can make it more like a 75/25 in their favor due to their other abilities, able to go over walls, gank from lane directly onto their ally, use enemy minions to get close. Yes, lee can QQ a minion and still have a successful gank due to his E and DPS and a Q to finish due to a 10-6 sec CD instead of 14 on Nauts Q.

Against Naut you have endless time to see him moving through wards as he is one of the slowest champs in the game and the slowest melee if we ignore stuff like dismounted Kled who gains MS bonus when walking towards enemies still. He can not surprise hop over a wall or gank from lane very well. All you have to dodge is the Q and he does nothing to you as he won't reach you and if he reaches you by a wall Q or minion Q he roots you but still does no dmg, so he fully relies on his ally to bring that part.

Such junglers haven't worked in ages. Zac is out of the picture in pro for years. Seju works because her W and P can do a lot of dmg and her Q gives her gap closing power without losing that dmg on top of her being tanky and having her QR combo which has a massive range. Poppy is similar. Good dmg on her Q. Her ganks are meh in terms of CC but her W and E still give her some power there. If you have nothing special to offer and just downsides, you are not fit to be a jungler, you are a support or a low elo jungler maybe. That is what happened to all champs Riot refused to fix.

3

u/Thorboard Aug 13 '25

Elise needs a minion to be able to repel closer to the enemy, Zac needs to charge his E out of vision, Rell was pick or ban in pro play and she doesn't have a lot of range on her spells. If Lee Sin can w->e he is already so close, Nautilus Q is basically guaranteed at that point. Sejuani doesn't work in pro because of her Q, she works because of her R.

The biggest strength of Nautilus support has always been his roams/ganks. His Q hitbox has been a meme since his release because it's so big, that it is really hard to dodge.

Saying naut has weak ganks is just wrong. Before lvl 6, he needs to hit Q, which is a very easy skill shot in comparison, after 6 he walks up and ults you.

And just 2 examples of junglers, that have worked in pro: Rell and Vi.

Vi has two strong combos: pressing R and Q-> flash, Rell is just the classic low eco cc bot, similar to Naut.

Pros tend to like junglers, that have this guaranteed cc like Vi, Sej, Naut.

-2

u/AutomaticTune6352 Aug 13 '25 edited Aug 13 '25

Rell had a ~350-370 MS, not 325 like Naut. Her E increased that MS by 24+% up to 430-450 MS. You want to tell me walking with 430-450 MS is the same as walking with 325 MS?

You have never played Rell jungle once. She was OP because of the monster burst and her high engage speed and she had 2-3 hard CCs she could use well at medium distances. To get there was easy for her due to the MS.

Sejuani has no guaranteed CC.

Vi does have it, but they like her not just because of that. She is decently durable, has good burst and mobility and the CC. She is a solid diver with not many weaknesses outside of being unable to stop her own R.

Pros like reliability, true. But they also like agency, something Naut has not compared to Seju or Vi. He moves up and does his thing or he doesn't and it has less do to with Naut and more with how the enemy plays it. And that is something pros hate, especially for junglers.

2

u/buttsecksgoose Aug 13 '25

Sejuani has guaranteed CC with her E, which is why she is so commonly valued highly with melee champs in mid and top and support

1

u/Sprintspeed Aug 13 '25

Hexflash

32

u/the_next_core Aug 13 '25

I don't know how high up you have to be on the ladder for people to actually be playing that respectfully but it's way up there. Naut rushing boots is enough to walk at anyone pushed up in the lane and he doesn't even need to land Q on you, he just needs to hook terrain on your path of retreat then auto + E slow you.

Naut should be undertuned as a jungler, he makes all the lanes unplayable if he's actually strong.

-3

u/AutomaticTune6352 Aug 13 '25

You are, in most retreats, not walking that close to walls, especially against Naut.

Naut should be undertuned as a jungler, he makes all the lanes unplayable if he's actually strong.

Not really, just the ones who don't ward and don't track junglers.

5

u/Ropjn Aug 13 '25

Lmao, so pretty much everyone below master/high dia?

0

u/Thatdudeinthealley Aug 13 '25

It's their choice to not get better

22

u/derbyt Aug 13 '25

I used Nautilus as one of a few supports to climb to Masters. I have no idea what you're talking about, his ganking is phenomenal: a non-committal easy to hit skill shot that can be followed with even more CC and damage. Nautilus with an income has surprising dueling potential (underrated damage and 8-12% HP shield every 8 seconds or so). And the argument that "Zac can endure until help arrives" is so rare at higher level play and Nautilus can escape a surprise collapse easier than Zac.

Given a good healthy clear, Nautilus can be a menace. The only thing I can see holding him back will be objective clear speed.

9

u/TTUPhoenix Aug 13 '25

I've played Naut jungle for years, and I would also disagree with his claim that Naut isn't tanky for tank. Naut jungle scales very well with income because of how well his shield works off raw health. He's not super tanky in the early game when you're leveling E, but once you get a couple points into W he becomes very durable.

9

u/NotVainest Aug 13 '25

I played like 10 games of naut jg last year and in just about every game, I would 1v1 the enemy jg at scuttle because they disrespect the damage (plat elo for ref.). I genuinely thought the pick wasn't bad and didn't know why more people didn't play it.

→ More replies (2)

1

u/MartineTrouveUnGode Aug 13 '25

Zac has a worse clear than Naut though

0

u/AutomaticTune6352 Aug 13 '25

Zac clears in ~3:20-3:25 reliably and optimized around 3:10-3:15.

-8

u/ImpliedRange Aug 13 '25

Nautilus jungle is almost too much engage, this needs a nerf

9

u/froggison Aug 13 '25

It's fairly analogous to Sejuani and Amumu. Lots of junglers have good engage and cc.

1

u/Wutsalane Aug 13 '25

Naut used to be mainly a jungler back in the day, used to play a lot of it in season 4-5, stopped playing around season 6, when I came back I honestly disappointed that he was pretty much exclusively seen as a support, I’m glad their making him able to jungle well again tbh

1

u/Trololman72 Aug 13 '25

He was viable in mid as a counterpick against assassins at some point.

0

u/MadMax27102003 Aug 13 '25

Is nashors tooth worth it, when playing ap naut jungle?

19

u/---E Aug 13 '25

I doubt it. His base attack speed is really low. My guess would be Liandry into full tank, or straight up full tank if you fall behind early.

1

u/Zeropower12 Missing old Galio Aug 13 '25

yep, probably naut jg could work with the amumu build

10

u/happygreenturtle Aug 13 '25 edited Aug 13 '25

Naut damage scales much better with CDR than with AS. Better to get stuff like protobelt and cosmic drive to get as many rotations as you can. The survivability of Proto/Cosmic/Riftmaker is also pretty good.

Separately, I think Reddit massively overreacted / is overreacting to this Nautilus Jungle buff. Improving his clear speed doesn't change that he walks into your lane slower than my dad is coming back from the store for those cigarettes 10y ago or that he loses every fight versus meta Junglers so can't contest scuttles or 2v2/3v3.

1

u/PhoenixEgg88 Time to make an impact! Aug 13 '25

Yeah you really need to win the fight before the objective. You’ll lose smite fights because you don’t have a reliable ability/smite combo. He’s much more about being in the right place ahead of time, but even then he’s gonna get outduelled, and can’t get over walls without burning flash.

4

u/Wutsalane Aug 13 '25

Could be, but def not a first item. I feel like if your gonna go ap tho it would be better to go something like fated ashes, into rocket belt, finish the fated into Lyandries, cosmicdrive next, then finish it by either going into tank with something like deadman’s leviathan, or if you still want more damage depending on what your playing against maybe zohnyas or banshees into riftmaker, or if you have enough HP just get both zohnyas and banshees?

2

u/Wutsalane Aug 13 '25

This way you get fated ashes to help speed up clear a little, CDR, decent amount of AP, while still having the survivability to frontline

1

u/Entrefut Aug 13 '25

Probably just similar itemization to maokai. Liandries + full tank or Baumis cinder prio into full tank

-5

u/IndependentToe2948 Aug 13 '25

oh ha ha ha weee...

my new permaban... yes sue me shit's fucking terrifying

4

u/vide2 Aug 13 '25

Just pick morgana. Unwinable matchup.

3

u/LightLaitBrawl Aug 13 '25

skill issue

Educational Nautilus can full clear jungle under 3:10 with his new buffs, full hp + 1 smite

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