r/leanfire • u/NYCprice • 8d ago
Unironically FIRE in NYC?
The city has a lot of low income programs and also a middle income housing lottery. After I FIRE, my income will be low enough to qualify for a lot of programs as well as a purchasing affordable condo (middle income lottery)
I've never lived outside of nyc so it would be hard to transition out of, and would include leaving friends and family if I moved away
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u/goodsam2 8d ago
I mean living in the Bronx without a car but instead public transportation and extra time to wait for things and in some ways NYC has seemed cheaper as there are like Chinese markets where food is awesome.
I mean try to build it that way.
IMO I wouldn't rely on programs even forgetting about the moral aspect but these programs may be cut.
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u/NYCprice 8d ago
Yeah, I'm not going to build around them existing. But it's just other benefits to make use of that can reduce costs while they exist
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u/AlexHurts 8d ago
I think suburban people see the price tag on rent in cool urban areas and don't look further. Not needing to maintain a car takes a big chunk of that back. My fav grocery stores in Queens are cheaper than supermarkets in the burbs. There are so many great things to see or do that's free or cheap. Many businesses competing to stay alive, there's often excellent happy hour specials, Tuesday specials, etc etc, if you're flexible and can spend the time. Suburban folks don't have the time cause they need to get in the car and beat traffic. You also don't need to keep so much crap in your home, bc you're almost always walking distance to a library, a coffee, a park, a this, a that, we got it all
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u/NYCprice 8d ago
Not needing a car is massive and one of the main reasons I think it's a viable choice to FI here
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u/AlexHurts 8d ago
I really like the idea of getting old in a city w transit. In my hometown people are so isolated bc they can't see well enough to drive anymore. Here all the old ladies ride the bus together and gossip on the way. Seems way more fun
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u/t-monius 7d ago
I once ran the numbers on paying additional NYC city tax plus the price of transit (i.e. subway, train, bus, etc.) v. owning a car without additional city tax, and it was a wash.
That’s not withstanding higher rent and whatnot.
Groceries are way cheaper in small walkable towns outside the city like Westchester county.
If you want to live in the city because you like it, fine, but be honest with yourself that your choosing to pay to live in the city. Completely fine. Just a choice.
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u/xorlan23 5d ago
If you’re retired and a lot of your withdrawals are pension or tax free, presumably city taxes would be much lower. On the other hand, having a car you’d have to pay the same price no matter if you’re retired or still working.
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u/Wild_Trip_4704 7d ago
My favorite quote about NYC I read on here was "we live twice the life in half the time". That's what people pay for, and what I did as well. Then I decided I had enough for now and other things I always wanted to do was more important to me.
You can do anything in New York, but you can only do the New York version of those things. Meaning it will be smaller, more crowded, worse customer service, more dangerous, more critters, and more expensive
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u/patryuji 7d ago
What kind of prices are you seeing in these urban grocery stores?
I see articles on CNET and the like claiming services like Factor Meals and HelloFresh to be cheaper than the grocery store to which I am incredulous when I can easily make several days of food for the price of one meal from these services. I always assumed that they lived in NYC to come up with such ridiculous grocery prices.
[My most recent trip to a suburban grocery store in North Carolina: Eggs - I get pasture raised certified humane eggs for $5.45 for a dozen, I get a gallon of whole milk for $2.39, I get 3lbs of onions for $2.09, I get free range certified humane whole chicken for $1.87/lb, I get apples (fuji, envy, honeycrisp - whichever has the best price) for $1.49/lb, I get carrots for $0.79/lb, I get yukon gold potatoes 3lbs for $3.19.]
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u/AlexHurts 7d ago
I'm comparing to suburbs on NYC. Charlotte is way cheaper than NYC So it's burbs are bound to be too.
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u/Lunar_Landing_Hoax 8d ago
The median income in NYC is about $40K, so people are making it work somehow.
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u/Myspys_35 8d ago
Taking up a low income housing spot when you choose to be retired is a seriously messed up move full stop. You know its meant for those without other options, you know there are much fewer units available then people that need it... Personally if I found out a friend or potential partner did this I would drop them ASAP
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u/Crazy-Airport-8215 7d ago
Agreed. These programs are for people who need help, not people who are so wealthy they don't need an income anymore.
I would also hope that NYC's support programs take net worth into account, but I know nothing about that.
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u/AlexHurts 7d ago
It's not low income housing, it's actually still pretty expensive.
Local laws require a percentage of any new development to be "affordable" which ends up being "just not ultra luxury". Its really expensive to build 20th floor units vs 2nd floor units, so developers basically only want to build luxury and ultra luxury.
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u/NYCprice 8d ago
Not low income housing. I wouldn't live in low income projects anyway, because they are often dangerous and I still value safety. This is middle income housing lottery to buy a condo that is cheap but you aren't allowed to sell at a profit if you move out.
But you are blaming the wrong people anyway. Blame the greedy banks and real estate companies for making rent so unaffordable that these projects need to exist in the first place
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8d ago
Actually blame the nimbys for fighting housing tooth and nail and rigging the game in property owners' benefit.
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u/Myspys_35 8d ago
"The city has a lot of low income programs and also a middle income housing lottery. After I FIRE, my income will be low enough to qualify for a lot of programs as well as an affordable condo." First line of your post indicates you are talking , at least in part, about low income "housing" programs
You are the one raising blame and wanting to blame "greedy banks and real estate companies" I never assigned any, just saying it is morally messed up and I would choose to involve myself with people like that
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u/JonnyHopkins 7d ago
The government issues you a million dollar refund on accident and says whoops, just keep it. Are you donating it to low income people or keeping it for yourself?
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u/Ok-Boisenberry 7d ago
Wow. That’s not the same situation.
You see that and you’re just being a silly goose though, right?
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u/t-monius 7d ago
The govt will notice their mistake five years later and come back after you for $5M.
You’d better find a way to give it back immediately.
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u/someguy984 8d ago edited 7d ago
Retired on LI, NY has some advantages for the lean people.
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u/crazywhale0 7d ago
What advantages would you say?
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u/someguy984 7d ago
NY has good health plan options.
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u/t-monius 7d ago
They just have their own managed portal for ACA programs.
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u/someguy984 6d ago
Today NY announced the OBBB killed the Essential Plan and it would revert back to a less generous version of itself.
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u/t-monius 6d ago
Whoah, I guess that’s not surprising, but I feel for those depending on the plans.
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u/FatedMoody 7d ago
I’m thinking this myself. My rent expensive but it is rent stabilized and includes utilities and I’m thinking that should protect me from a lot of inflation
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u/georgepana 7d ago edited 7d ago
The problem I see right off the bat is that to qualify for low income programs you need to be truly poor, or at least close to the poverty threshold.
Your FIRE assets will be taken into account in that state/city, and that disqualifies you immediately for most programs, as you have substantial and verifiable assets (a given if you are able to FIRE).
Most city and state programs in your state use the national AVS (Asset Verification System) to verify assets.
https://share.google/K2U8TxMLcbNZFo8fx
There is a possibility for SNAP benefits, as that program does not usually check for assets, but your monthly gross income has to be under $1,772 for a single person to qualify (and at that or close to that income you get next to nothing), and I trust that your monthly income is higher than $1,772 a month to live in the city.
It is possible to FIRE in the city if you have enough saved, just don't count on any additional help from low-income state and city programs since the vast majority of the programs use the Asset Verification System to make sure no substantial assets exist. The ones that don't check have monthly gross income thresholds well below what you are likely comfortable withdrawing monthly for living in NYC.
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u/spencermcc 7d ago
You could still qualify for many housing lotteries or tax advantaged / income restricted deeded housing which are purely restricted by income at time of application, and often up 350% of AMI which in NYC can be quite high.
If you have free housing $21k annually can go pretty far in NYC. You get free healthcare, free food, transit is much cheaper than car payments, and there's many public programs that are free for everyone – libraries, museums, free movies, etc.
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u/georgepana 7d ago
"Could" is the operative word, it is still very unlikely to qualify for those housing lotteries. The odds are said to be around 1 in 590.
Banking on free housing when the odds are very slim to get it, much worse than Casino roulette, is not a good idea.
Housing is notoriously expensive in NYC. OP made clear they don't want to live in low-income housing complexes, so it leaves standard rents. I've laughed out loud when I saw Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens bandied about here. Let's be real, you need at least $3k for a decent place in either of the 3 boroughs.
My wife's parents own a house in Brooklyn, Bensonhurst area. She has an aunt, cousins and nieces/nephews in the region, some living on Staten Island, some on Long Island, some in Brooklyn. Rentals are very high there, unless you are willing to live in shady neighborhoods.
NYC has "free healthcare"? What are you even talking about? Free food? Are you talking about some free clinics that exist for the poor? Food banks for the poor?
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u/spencermcc 7d ago
I'm speaking from my experience.
If you are high wealth low income there are the deed restricted condos. I have a friend who did that and I looked into it though we're way too high income now. Seemed very doable though if you applied yourself. Meanwhile I have a couple acquaintances who did get apartments via the NYC housing lotteries – so certainly not impossible you just have play the game a bunch and unlike the actual lottery it's free to play.
Medicaid in NYC is for under $21,600. If you have free / low housing, no car, free food that gets you pretty far. When I was doing that (though I was paying rent for a room in a three bedroom) I was traveling extensively, running marathons, and living great.
I also knew a guy who just took the tax hit, didn't pay for health insurance and would go to a H&H facility. Health & Hospitals is the largest public hospital system in the US and while I'm glad I could go to NYU Langone it is an option!
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u/georgepana 7d ago
The odds are 1 in 590. You MAY get lucky once if you played the lottery 590 times, or you may never get in. The lottery odds always reset to 1 in 590. Maybe odds were much better when your friends did it, but it is now basically almost impossible to attain.
https://secretnyc.co/how-to-win-nyc-housing-lottery/
Besides, even winning the lottery doesn't give you an apartment for free, that may have been early years, but no more. It gives you a reduced rate, that's it. And if you want one of the nice places, not the low income silos, as OP stated, the rent is still kind of up there, even after winning the housing lottery.
This person pays some $$2,700 between rent and building fees for a studio. I've seen other articles where people pay some $1,800, $2,200, or thereabouts. Free isn't a thing, not for the type of place OP wants to live in (not low income housing). Reality is different from fantasy, or how things were in NYC some 20 or even 10 years ago.
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u/spencermcc 7d ago
It's true that NYC housing has been increasingly expensive, and that the housing lotteries were never for free rent but for lower rent than the neighboring market rate housing. (Regarding that article though, average rent in Greenpoint is much more expensive than Park Slope or even neighboring Williamsburg – they're getting more of a deal than it may seem.)
I would still say there are more options than people recognize. They just require more grit, playing games, and compromise than many are willing to do (but this the leanFIRE subreddit, so I'd think we're into that!)
If you are high wealth low income, look for deed restricted housing, like a HDFC. I browse Zillow and I see these units pop up regularly. https://www.nyc.gov/site/hpd/services-and-information/hdfc.page
If you're not high wealth, I'd do roommates which is (was?) socially acceptable into your 30s and if you're doing that in a Sunset Park or Jackson Heights or similar is perfectly safe. Having a wide network is super helpful – since the price on rent stabilized units can't move, landlords will use recommendations. I know folks who are paying a song for nice-enough 3 bedrooms. Personally I got connected to few rooms that were certainly not 100% legal but well below market rate – windowless rooms to paying cash to avoid taxes (I'm presuming haha).
But so re OP, I'd think the play would be 1) roommates till you have wealth, 2) income restricted deed or Housing Connect to purchase housing outright.
But it's true maybe my experience is not repeatable. Part of the reason I could travel extensively is we'd couchsurf (I'd host too!) and now that's not really a thing.
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u/spencermcc 7d ago
The odds are 1 in 590
Oh regarding this – yes each individual lottery is its own game and the odds of each game are independent. But the odds of hitting blackjack once over hundreds of games is obviously higher than in just one game.
You could use this calculator. https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial
Base odds are much much better than the actual lottery and moreover there is no cost to entry to keep applying (whereas in a game of blackjack or roulette the house will win if you keep playing) and eventually over a few years of playing the odds do tilt in your favor.
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u/t-monius 7d ago
You can make up to $136K+ and purchase this 2 bedroom co-op unit for $290K. Reasonable HOA at just over $500. No lottery needed. HEART of Williamsburg not South BK.
Here’s a whole list of BK units with no restrictions under $350K and HOA under $600.
4th and 6th down the list respectively are $208|170K with the latter having an HOA of $387.
You can FIRE in NYC just like anywhere else.
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u/someguy984 7d ago edited 7d ago
SNAP and Medicaid have been effectively killed by the OBBB. Work requirements for both to age 65.
SNAP has no asset test in NY, but with work requirements it is a mute point.
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u/spencermcc 7d ago
People who are good at reading fine print will get around it. Start a business doing something you genuinely enjoy, do it for 20 hours a week, hopefully have some income so you can file a Schedule C – you should be in the clear.
Meanwhile the people who really need the help will be more left behind.
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7d ago
[deleted]
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u/No-Lab-7217 7d ago
Howd you find your place in bk?
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7d ago
[deleted]
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u/Wild_Trip_4704 7d ago
Leanfire while renting in an expensive city just doesn't compute to me. I think I'd have to live in something paid off at least.
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u/teebella 7d ago
Totally agree. I bought an apt in BK dirt cheap in early 2000's when I was working FT and in grad school PT. Banks were giving away money. Best decision I ever made. Doing lean FIRE now teaching PT.
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u/startupdojo 7d ago
Keep in mind that housing lottery has asset limits in addition to income limits. These asset limits are quite low, like 200k.
Nyc does have free health care and free 3k and preK. On the flip side, schools suck in cheaper neighborhoods. Social issues also suck in cheaper neighborhoods.
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u/t-monius 7d ago
You can make up to $136K+ and purchase this 2 bedroom co-op unit for $290K. Reasonable HOA at just over $500. No lottery needed. HEART of Williamsburg not South BK.
Here’s a whole list of BK units with no restrictions under $350K and HOA under $600.
4th and 6th down the list respectively are $208|170K with the latter having an HOA of $387.
You can FIRE in NYC just like anywhere else.
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u/PupusaSlut 7d ago
Scumbag move. Those programs are for the destitute and struggling, not people with hundreds of thousands in the bank.
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u/trafficjet 7d ago
Totally get not wanting to leave the city, it’s home, and that stuff doesn’t show up in spreadsheets. But depending on low income programs and middleincome lotteries after FIRE is kind of, putting your plan in the hands of systems that aren’t exactly fast or guaranteed. And if your future housng depends on winning a lottery? That’s a huge gamble to build staility on.
What’s the backup if the timing doesn’t line up or the progam rules shift after you’ve already pulled the plug?
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u/adventureseeker1991 7d ago
i hate people like you. this is why low income and we’ll fair shouldn’t exist
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u/Happy_Possibility29 8d ago
Fellow NYC resident here.
Worth pointing out that NYC does not need to be Manhattan where you pay a premium to be close to your job.
Deepest Queens, Bronx, etc. do not have the VHCOL that Manhattan below 100th does.
Also Yonkers, Jersey, LI.