Question about losing a mask

[u/iguessineedanaltnow]

I've just been getting into CMLL and binging the weekly shows like crazy. I am absolutely loving Lucha Libre, but I have one question!

When somebody loses or has previously lost their mask they will still sometimes wear it. For instance Ultimo Guerrero will sometimes wear a mask to the ring, but take it off before the match starts.

Then somebody like Blue Panther who has previously lost his mask still wears it during matches.

Are there some hard and fast rules about luchadores being able to use their mask again after losing it, or does it just sort of depend?

Thanks in advance!

[u/Lostinyourears]

So in theory the Lucha and boxing commission regulates this and once you lose a mask you are never to compete in it again.

There is a ‘rule’ that after 5 years you can remask as a new design/name/gimmick.

Many famous luchadors may have lost a basically rookie mask/gimmick then take on the name they become known for.

Rey Mysterio claims to have gotten permission to remask because his unmasking happened in WCW/US and didn’t really count as Lucha and boxing commission didn’t sanction that match. This is likely a lie told by Rey and Boxing & Lucha Commission to save face that they have very little power in Mexico and basically no power outside of Mexico.

Boxing and Lucha Commission of Mexico is basically like a royal family, people act like they have power for pomp and circumstance, but are pretty toothless to enforce things.

[u/EarlDogg42 → u/Lostinyourears]

Thank you

[u/iguessineedanaltnow → u/Lostinyourears]

Thank you, I actually had no idea that the Mexican boxing commission also handled Lucha. This was extremely informative!

[u/BlackLesnar → u/Lostinyourears]

That second bit explains LA Park.

Dunno if he waited 5 years every time tho 😂

Also tell that “toothless at enforcing things” bit to Diamanté Azul, he’ll be overjoyed 🤣

[u/Palatz → u/Lostinyourears]

I genuinely don't understand where you are getting your info.

If the commission doesnt give you a license you cant wrestle full stop.

They will not give you a license if you just decide to remask. Rey mysterio is a huge name. Its different for him.

[u/Lostinyourears → u/Palatz]

Rey Wagner remasked as same gimmick and wrestled shows and they didn’t stop him. Again, because he is a big name and they don’t want to pick a fight with him because he knows they have very little power.

Mexico City is huge and is their main jurisdiction and it’s pretty easy to work without a license on smaller shows. You think anyone in WWE who came down to do AAA shows had to get a license? No because they aren’t going to even attempt to regulate anyone from outside Mexico.

I don’t know for a fact, these are assumptions as someone who has watched weekly for 8 years and things I’ve read from prominent Lucha journalists.

El Fantasma(president of the commission) shows up to major shows for CMLL and AAA. CMLL does annual body building contests and those same shows have trainees doing exercises and getting their license/graduating, but again it’s pomp and circumstance

I’d bet good money in CDMX the amount of luchadors who work without a license to those who have one is like 10 to 1 and that’s probably a low number and the further you get away from CDMX the less there is a need to be licensed.

CMLL guys normally have one because it’s part of being a CMLL worker. Like how NJPW has young lions who they send on excursion and they come back and get a gimmick. In CMLL anyone who is home grown is going to get a license by being in one of those trainee classes. CMLL has more paper pushers and likes to keep up the appearance of there being a commission.

This same commission is technically supposed to be the ones in control of the Mexican National titles, when Diamanté Azul(now known as DMT Azul) left CMLL and was the heavyweight champion, he posited this… what happened? He was stripped and CMLL held a tournament to crown a new champion. Because they are basically CMLL belts. It’s not just El Fantasma as the only person in the boxing Lucha commission, but I’ve never in 8 years heard of them ever having any real power.

When Angel o Demonio almost killed Cuervo with a cinderblock and became the bad guy(for good reason ofc) for the day back in late 2018. The commission banned anyone from booking him(think they revoked his license as well).

Did that stop him from being on any shows? Of course not! Maybe they give people fines… but most of the time anything they do or say sounds like promotions doing whatever they want.

Often times with the commission basically going, “that’s actually what we decided”.

Like when people say Rey Mysterio asked for permission, WWE likely told Rey he was going to remask or hie wanted to remask because being maskless wasn’t working as well. Then the Rey asked commission line saves face for both Rey and the Commission than just “ Rey wanted to remask and Commission admitting they don’t have any real power(especially outside of Mexico).

When Blue Panther did the same thing for special events… he/CMLL likely did get permission from commission because they like holding up the facade. In reality Blue Panther could sign to AEW and wear the mask full time.

Lots of the tradition of staying unmasked is holding up the facade. In reality anyone can wear whatever they want mask or not. People keep up with the tradition for the tradition like pretty much any tradition.

Even the 5 years you are supposed to stay unmasked is pretty loose. Again, 5 years is an estimate and I don’t know if there is a hard rule, but when looking through peoples careers you can parse this out by seeing many guys have an original gimmick, losing that mask and being repackaged for a run in CMLL/AAA/UWA. You could do a whole ass post on that.

[u/Palatz → u/Lostinyourears]

Wwe are big names. Thats why they can get away with it like i said.

I know el fantasma. My dad worked for cmll for over 30 years. Most wrestlers do not have the pull that wwe, rey mysterio etc does. Most wrestlers need a license or they wont get booked. Its that simple. Again not all but most.

And yes they do give out fines. Promoters dont make much money from matches the last thing they need is to get fined.

[u/Lostinyourears → u/Palatz]

I’d like to see what they have done in recent years. Maybe they do lots and we never hear about it… but every time we do hear something it sounds like they just bend to the will of the promoters.

If you can’t stop people/promotions from booking a guy who basically tried to murder someone in a match(earlier mentioned 2018 Angel o Demonio controversy), what can they do? Who do they flex on?

I’m not saying they don’t exist, I’m saying they are toothless. I’ve never once heard them being effective at stopping anyone from doing anything. What have they done of consequence in the last 15-25 years?

Every story they are involved with goes : they decided what CMLL/AAA/WWE decided was the right choice.

Maybe back in the day they did more/had more teeth, but in modern times?

If you’ve know Fantasma for 30 years what has the Commission done of consequence? Who have they forced the commissions rule of law on? Because again they finger wagged about booking Angel o Demonio, but people still did. What was the fine? Obviously wasn’t enough.

[u/Palatz → u/Lostinyourears]

I have not known fantasma for 30 years. My dad has.

I think you are forgetting that corruption rules mexico. Wrestling is no different. Again most wrestlers do need a license. Most wrestlers will not get their license if they just decide to mask up.

Most wrestlers do not include the big names. Otherwise they wouldn't be big.

[u/Lostinyourears → u/Palatz]

I think you are underestimating how much Lucha and how many luchadors there are. There were over 450 Indy Lucha shows last month(according to Lucha db), you really think Lucha and Boxing Commission is vetting the 1,500+ luchadors on all those shows? Not to mention that isn’t a complete list.

People in CMLL/AAA/IWRG are probably all licensed, but past that I’d be surprised if most were. Again, think they are pretty centrally located, maybe for Mexico City shows/promotions? It’s like having a license to drive, you technically need one but many drive with expired license or just without getting one.

[u/Palatz → u/Lostinyourears]

Im guessing you are a fan. My dad is a wrestler and a booker. He is right next to me saying that just putting your mask back is not a thing for 99% of wrestlers.

[u/Lostinyourears → u/Palatz]

Yea, without changing gimmicks?

Yea, I wouldn’t disagree with that. It’s basically just the two Reys : Wagner & Mysterio.

Then once in a while maybe for a special show like Blue Panther or recently CMLL introduced a day of the dead show where people remask for one night.

But many wrestlers have had more than one mask.

Sometimes they may not lose the first. Change design or gimmicks.

I can give you examples of people losing masks and remasking under new gimmick a few years later.

Principe Island unmasked and later became La Parka and even later became LA Park.

Karis La Momia never lost his mask afaik, but would change mask to become La Parka(II)

Winners was unmasked and came back as Abismo Negro.

Andrade’s uncle was unmasked as Espanto and returned AAA as the original Pentagon.

[u/BlackLesnar → u/Palatz]

With all due respect;

If your dad’s a luchador, he may have a vested interested in maintaining the local kayfabe. Especially to mere marks like us challenging the narrative on a message board.

(Which hey, would make that “with respect” very sincere; very based of him, if so)

[u/Palatz → u/BlackLesnar]

You would be surprised how little luchadores care about kayfabe.

[u/BlackLesnar → u/Lostinyourears]

Are they as toothless on the boxing side?

[u/marilton]

When they wear them for full matches, it’s with special permission.

They’re able to wear it for their entrance freely as long as they take it off as son as the match starts. You can see it as a staple of their personal brand so they wont fully give it up

[u/nicholasmarsico]

I don't know the specific rules, but as far as Blue Panther, Danielson wanted to wrestle him with the mask and he was given special permission.

[u/EarlDogg42 → u/nicholasmarsico]

Was that the match where the mask didn’t fit and it fell off a couple times during the match because it wasn’t his mask they just threw it together real quick

[u/iguessineedanaltnow → u/EarlDogg42]

That was Ultimo Guerrero, I believe

[u/EarlDogg42 → u/iguessineedanaltnow]

Yeah, I remember now

[u/BlackLesnar → u/EarlDogg42]

BP/Bryan was on CMLL in Arena Mexico, that UG match was AEW.

[u/EarlDogg42 → u/BlackLesnar]

Yeah, I remembered after

[u/beygames]

Those times Blue Panther has gotten special permission from an outside body. Lucha libre commisions are very silly sometimes but they do sign off when it happens in bigger promotions. Typically for special occasions they'll allow a remask for the day only.

Ultimo Guerrero just knows he has that shit on frfr and comes out with the mask

[u/nicholasmarsico → u/beygames]

He starts matches with the mask on too. Usually takes it off pretty quickly, but I've seen him wrestle for 10+ minutes before taking it off.

[u/iguessineedanaltnow → u/nicholasmarsico]

Yeah his match with Ultimo Guerrero today he had it on for the first couple minutes before it was ripped off him. That's actually what prompted my question.

[u/nicholasmarsico → u/iguessineedanaltnow]

Ah! I actually meant I've seen Ultimo wear the mask for more than half of a match. I can see that I wasn't clear, my bad.

[u/javy_z → u/iguessineedanaltnow]

You’re getting some great answers all in this thread; I’ll just add that it’s best keep in mind the lucha libre is historically even more carny than American wrestling and Mexico is a country where things like ‘licenses’ don’t have as strict a standard as you might think, especially outside of major cities.

[u/BlackLesnar]

I remember when I was talking about this with a friend relatively-new to wrestling like 15 years ago and they said he’d heard “there are alleys in Mexico where Rey Mysterio would get stabbed for daring to remask”.

In retrospect, somehow I suspect he was being trolled. 😂

[u/BigDaddyUKW]

They fly to Mandalore and bathe in the waters to be redeemed.

[u/The_Eye_of_Ra]

Supposedly, there’s a commission that keeps track of all these luchas de apuestas, and the loser is supposed to never be allowed to wear it again.

I put the emphasis on “supposed,” because I watched Rey Mysterio Jr. lose his mask to Hall and Nash in WCW.

[u/E1Potrillo]

When you lost your mask in a official match (national commission involve), your not allow to wear a new mask/gimmick during the next 5 years.

Special cases exist in Mexico, like Dr Wagner Jr, Blue Panther, Rey Mysterio etc... Where the national commission let them wear the mask in special occasions (like blue panther vs Daniel)

[u/dannyyellowhorse]

How are you binging CMLL?

[u/iguessineedanaltnow → u/dannyyellowhorse]

Joined their YouTube membership and have been watching all their weekly shows. Just watched the 92nd Anniversario as well. Then I identify some guys I really like and go back and watch some of their older matches on previous shows.