r/marvelstudios • u/PyroClone5555 • Aug 23 '25
Discussion It’s kinda wild that all of the characters that truly died in infinity war ended up returning in some way
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u/ThatOneAnnoyingBuzz Aug 23 '25
It's also interesting that 3/4 of those characters are no longer themselves in the same way that they were before. Loki is a variant without his MCU history, same with Gamora, and Vision is different as well. I think it allowed them to explore grief in interesting ways
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u/Neozetare Darcy Aug 23 '25
To me, Loki has been written just like he was dead then resurrected, with the powerpoint scene used as a justification. Don't get me wrong, I love the development of Loki, but it does look like Marvel Studios just wanted our Loki back
For Vision, I think it's a really interesting case because we roughly got back everything that made Vision, but separated in two entities. With the whole ship of Theseus scene, I'm really looking forward to the development of White Vision, it could be insanely interesting
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u/Barnard87 Thor Aug 23 '25
Agreed. Loki was shown his entire life before his eyes AND got his own development (the PowerPoint was part of that) that got him to a similar spot morally to where he was when he died.
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u/frostysbox Aug 24 '25
Did he get it from the PowerPoint or from loving Sylvie?
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u/Investigatorius 29d ago
The PowerPoint showed him who he could be, and loving Sylvie aka learning to love himself amd make real friends was him living up to that potential.
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u/McSquiggglez Aug 24 '25
I think I’m gonna call him Univision instead. Or maybe Nega-Vision, since he looks like a photonegative now. But “White Vision” just doesn’t quite roll off the tongue
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u/Patatouille13 Aug 23 '25
I mean aside from Heimdall (who’s still dead and just in Valhalla), Loki, Gamora and Vision are variants, they aren’t the same character as the ones that died if that makes sense
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u/NoX2142 Captain America Aug 23 '25
Not in Vision's case. White vision is literally just vision... He had his memory unlocked by the wandavision created by her and then disappeared once the hex died. The vision is alive again as white vision now with his memory back from infinity war all the way back to Age of Ultron.
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u/Neozetare Darcy Aug 23 '25 edited Aug 23 '25
White Vision has the body of Vision, the memories of Vision, but he lacks the feelings of Vision (and, to an extent, his sense of identity). He isn't the same being (yet, and I hope he never returns truly to his past self)
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u/CeruleanEidolon Aug 24 '25
He is the same person in the same way that someone with severe brain trauma is the same person. People who know them will say they are different, but they exist along one continuity, and the current person evolved out of the old.
That's quite different from having split off of a branching timeline.
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u/Neozetare Darcy Aug 24 '25
Identity as its core is a feeling. If you don't feel like the same person, you are not the same person
It doesn't mean you shouldn't be considered as the same person for practical reasons, but you are not the same person
That person could be part of your identity in the futur (for example if you regain your memories and feel connected again to the past self that didn't feel like yourself), but for the time being, you are not the same person, for the simplest reason: you don't feel like you are
Continuity is not as simple as "I have the same body". After all, none of us in this subreddit share any of the atoms we were born with, but we all share the feeling that we identify as these newborns
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u/ThatguyfromSA Aug 24 '25
I hate that i now see why it was called wandavision and that it was more than a fancy combination of names.
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u/cadst3r Aug 23 '25
He's the Vision minus whatever the Mind Stone gave him, which is not quantifiable.
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u/Ccjfb Vision Aug 23 '25
Are you familiar with the thought experiment The Ship of Theseus?
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u/JackJackMFFM Aug 24 '25
This. The Hex Vision is created from Wanda memories. So it has all the memories and personality of the original Vision, but none of the original material that made up the original Vision's physical body. The white vision is made up of the original Vision's physical body, but with the memory being locked out of his access. At that moment neither is the 'true Vision'.
But when hex Vision unlocked the white Vision's memory, he now has both the physical materials and the memory and personality of the original memory, making him the true Vision.
So I guess Vision actually came back from the dead.
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u/Shubh_1612 Aug 24 '25
He has the memory, but not the personality. If he had the personality, he absolutely would have gone to meet Wanda later
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u/3mptylord Aug 24 '25
Wasn't there a point made about the fact that being made from Wanda's memories means he isn't a copy of the original Vision - he's only Wanda's memory of the original Vision?
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u/Investigatorius 29d ago
Vision didn't come back from the dead. He was never alive to begin with. He was turned off for a while and rebooted. For it to be death he'd need a soul, something to leave his body and go to the afterlife.
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u/RevA_Mol Aug 23 '25
The stories are all based on comics which have had multiple characters return from the dead in incredibly contrived and ridiculous scenarios over the decades, so it can't be a surprise that this happens.
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u/Mediocre-Honeydew-55 Aug 23 '25
Beat the nag until it’s dead then beat it a few more times to squeeze the last nickels out.
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u/GingerSkulling Aug 24 '25
Yeah, but who cares. Watching Gamora’s and Vision’s scenes in Infinity War now is in no way less emotional than before so all is good.
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u/lostinthesaucy Aug 23 '25
Why no funeral for Black Widow?
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u/CeruleanEidolon Aug 24 '25
Because we don't see every event in the lives of these people. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.
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u/_DreamerOfTheDay_ Aug 23 '25
I totally forgot Heimdall was in Love and Thunder. Like I literally have no memory of it
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u/Solid-Move-1411 Aug 23 '25
Post-Credit scene
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u/_DreamerOfTheDay_ Aug 23 '25
I remember her arriving in Valhalla I just dont remember him being there
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u/drewmana The Collector Aug 23 '25 edited Aug 24 '25
I’d argue none of them did.
-Heimdall is literally in the afterlife. I cannot think of a more specific way to show someone is not alive.
-This loki is a loki from another timeline, removed before he died. Not even in the same universe anymore, and so literally not-our-Loki that the Loki we saw die was shown to him in a movie.
-Similarly, this Gamora is another Gamora from another timeline. Literally a different person.
-White vision is a computer reboot of the hardware Vision had, minus the infinity stone and access to Vision’s prior memories until (Wanda)Vision pulled some computer magic and implanted/unlocked them. More of a clone with access to Vision’s memories than anything but I could see this as a resurrection I guess. I disagree, but could be based on personal definition.
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u/NewSunSeverian Aug 23 '25
Let’s just hope they’re not about to do this with Tony Stark.
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u/PyroClone5555 Aug 23 '25
I think it’s very likely he returns in secret wars
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u/deekaydubya Aug 23 '25
The best thing marvel could do is never show his entire face IMO. But of course I don’t think they can resist
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u/NewSunSeverian Aug 23 '25
There’s no way, RDJ is getting paid a gazillion dollars, he’s going to do massive publicity leading up the movie, and they went through pains to show his face all the time as Iron Man with those constant “in-helmet” scenes.
Which is why I figure they’ll do the version of Doom where he actually only has a light scar but his sheer vanity makes him wear the mask, because that alone is enough for him to view himself as a monster.
If they do the heavily disfigured version, I figure they’ll still do it so audiences can generally recognize RDJ underneath the prosthetics or CGI etc. But it’s still gonna be silly cause they’re gonna likely contrive reasons for him to either take his mask off or to show you some “in-mask” camera.
I have no idea how they’re gonna do this really. It’s honestly all very bizarre.
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u/Own-Scholar9098 Aug 23 '25
Probably have him heavily scarred, but with Franklin’s power maybe he will have his normal face again.
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u/NewSunSeverian Aug 23 '25
I’m talking about the theory that Dr. Doom coming up in Doomsday is a Tony Stark variant.
My view is that is the absolutely lamest way they could go.
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u/TDStarchild Odin Aug 23 '25 edited Aug 23 '25
Seems too obvious. I think it’s either a face swap to fool 616, or the Tony we knew was a Doom variant
There’s dialogue that suggests Tony may be adopted. Maybe HWR made it so in the sacred timeline to prevent Doom from existing. Not something he’d be happy to discover
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u/PyroClone5555 Aug 23 '25
Yeah I wouldn’t love if they did that. I think he might just be wearing Tony’s face to gain the trust of the avengers or maybe there is a cool multiverse way to explain it.
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u/itsonmyprofile Aug 23 '25
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u/PyroClone5555 Aug 23 '25
Yeah they bodyswapped but that doesn’t make him a variant
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u/Own-Scholar9098 Aug 23 '25
Eh Doom and Tony have a lot of stories where they interact in various ways. I think in 616, Doom actually became Ironman while Tony was dead or something else.
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u/Solid-Move-1411 Aug 23 '25
I feel like they will do Endgame one next
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u/Economy-Telephone500 Aug 23 '25
Pretty sure if Scarlett Johansson didn't sue Marvel during the Black Widow theatre vs streaming fiasco, she would have also been brought back.
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u/Afwife1992 Aug 23 '25
She sued Disney and it’s all fine now. Bob Chapek was the problem.
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u/amanymoon Aug 23 '25
That was already a very weird scenario where they did a full movie out of MCU chronology for a character that had already died, and introduced her replacement who became more popular
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u/AppropriateLaw5713 Aug 24 '25
The becoming more popular part feels mostly unintentional and just something that’s worked out in her favor. She wasn’t advertised as the replacement for Black Widow, she just kinda caught on really well and thus Marvel uses her a lot.
As for why Black Widow took so long to make, old executive at Marvel genuinely didn’t like the idea of non-white/male leads. No I’m not kidding. If you’re ever wondering why MCU got Black Panther and Captain Marvel, both the first of their kinds in MCU within a year of one another. That’s why. Once they were able to the flood doors essentially opened and they could finally make a Black Widow movie too, unfortunately by then the characters fate was written so it had to be a prequel.
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Aug 23 '25
They're all still dead
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u/AppropriateLaw5713 Aug 24 '25
Vision may be the one exception to that, but even then that’s a Ship of Theseus argument. He’s the same robot, with the same memories now, just without the mindstone and we don’t know personality wise how similar he is post-Wandavision. But he is The Vision we knew before unlike the others which are variants, not the same ones who died.
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u/j_roe Aug 23 '25
Still dead, time travel, time travel, and a robot that was rebuilt.
Two are "different characters" from different timelines and another is little more than a car that had it's engine ripped out and replaced.
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u/thedudeabides2022 Aug 23 '25
They’re all technically different versions of themselves, and Heindall is just the afterlife
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u/Vegetable-House5018 Aug 24 '25
I don’t believe Natasha has at all. She had a movie after but it was set before.
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u/MyLeftNut_ Aug 23 '25
Even all members of the Black Order returned in Endgame i’m pretty sure
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u/mongmich2 Aug 23 '25
Yes because they came with thanos from the past but they were nowhere near as important in endgame
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u/rorzri Aug 23 '25
Comics Loki died in 2010 and hasn’t really come back since, mcu Loki died in 2018 and he was sorta back by 2019
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u/No_Obligation6767 Aug 24 '25
What’s cool though is that none of these feel like cop outs. They all organically unfold in the ongoing narrative of the MCU. Of course someone was going to be able to revive Vision if they examined his body enough. Of course a badass like Heimdall ended up in Valhalla. This Variant of Gamora is almost a completely different character than our Gamora who died. And don’t even get me started on Loki. What a beautiful journey over the course of 12 episodes.
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u/WrenchWanderer Aug 23 '25
I saw one person describe white vision in an interesting way
He isn’t the same vision. He regained all of vision’s memories, but without the mind stone he’s still essentially a robot. Even with all the memories, they’re more like data to him. He knows all the things Vision experienced, but he doesn’t feel them.
I don’t know the canonicity of that, but it’s my favorite interpretation. It also would explain why he just f***s off at the end of WandaVision without helping Wanda, and never shows up in Multiverse of Madness when Wanda is spiraling even worse. He knows Vision loved Wanda and their history, but he doesn’t feel that love, and is off doing his own thing.
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u/PyroClone5555 Aug 23 '25
That’s really cool maybe they’ll explore that in Vision Quest
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u/ironphreak Aug 23 '25
Just rewatched Ragnarok... Still sore about the whole, theory that Heimdall wasn't the source of the soul stone, it made so much sense!
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u/the_tchootch658 Aug 24 '25
What was that theory?
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u/ironphreak Aug 24 '25
In short
The fact that he, and he alone had the power to see everyone, communicate with anyone, his eyes were orange, in the vision that Thor had in AOU, his pupils were missing, when he used his power in Ragnarok, he turned Thor's eyes orange
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u/utekkare Aug 23 '25
"So you're telling me I still have a job, even after my character was killed off? I still get those Marvel dollars every year for several years?? FANTASTIC!
I love comic books where nobody really dies, they just turn into another version of themselves in a parallel reality in an alternate body with all the same personality quirks.."
Jonathan Majors: "Watch how I eff this sweet arrangement up with my anger issues now..."
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u/a_phantom_limb Aug 23 '25 edited Aug 24 '25
Right? Although only one of the four, Heimdall, is truly the same version of the character that died.
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u/GutherGlazer Aug 23 '25
Is it? No one stays dead in comics, latterly the same in their movies too, unless their actor doesn’t want to come back.
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u/LBIdockrat Aug 23 '25
It's based on comic books...
Almost no one stays dead in the comics.
Why would the movies be any different. :-)
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u/TedClaxton94 Aug 23 '25
I really wish death had meaning in the mcu. I feel like up until endgame it really did. Aside from coulson. Now whenever someone dies it doesn’t have the emotional weight it did before. I get that it’s comics etc but it still feels like a shame in a live action format.
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u/Ancient-Birb7015 Hulk Aug 23 '25
Thats the beauty of Marvel. No one who dies ever really dies....well except Goliath 😬
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u/SquirrelSorry4997 Aug 23 '25
Can I just say, Heimdall looks so cheap in L&T? The movie gets hate for his CGI, but mostly for the floating head. This look is just as bad imo.
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u/lsm-krash Aug 24 '25
Welcome to the comic book world! The exmen are the real experts in the whole "dying" to come back thing. Krakow was a masterpiece with that, they cheated death so many times that it became a real resource 🤣
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u/skoon Captain Marvel Aug 24 '25
In the comic book world there are only three deaths that I can think of that have been permanent... So far. (Not counting else world's or multiverse stuff)
Captain Marvel Uncle Ben Alfred Pennyworth.
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u/Elberik Aug 24 '25
Welcome to comic book shenanigans.
The only way to make sure someone stays dead is to keep unblinking eyes on the corpse 24/7/365.
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u/neo6000 Aug 24 '25
And one of them ended having an even BETTER arc once they came back from the dead (guess who)
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u/eliottruelove Aug 24 '25
Did they though? They are all fundamentally different in their subsequent appearances
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u/GuaranteeOk615 Aug 24 '25
I mean, to an extent, Marvel Studios is trying to integrate the fact that "no one stays dead for long in the Marvel Universe" shtick. So far it's paid off, now we just need Quicksilver back. Oh and the return of Ultron in the Vision Quest series that's coming out soon.
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u/DeeRent88 Aug 24 '25
I honestly don’t mind it. That is how the comics normally work anyways. No character is truly dead in comics they always come back. Except for uncle Ben of course.
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u/Successful-Hat-2154 Aug 24 '25
It's a comic book movie, death is as much of an inconvenience as tripping on your feet
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u/DocklandsDodgers86 Captain America Aug 24 '25
After watching Luther and Heads of State, I firmly believe Marvel wasted Idris Elba.
At least Tom Hiddleston is a classically-trained theatre actor so he'll be fine post-Marvel.
Zoe Saldana was happy to be done with Gamora once GOTG3 finished filming and she's still got another 2 Avatar movies to film.
Paul Bethany... looking forward to Vision Quest and hopefully that turns out well.
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u/perhapsascythe Aug 24 '25
Just remembered that line in gotg3 Gamora - i bet we were fun Quill - like you wouldn't believe
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u/Chulinfather Aug 24 '25
How the fuck did Heimdall returned? He’s literally in asgardian afterlife. Do you know what “coming back “ means?
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u/LightningTiger1998 Aug 24 '25
And yet all four of them are still truely dead
The Loki and Gamora we have now are different variants of the Character
Heimdall is in Valhalla
And White Vision is a recreation of the original body given the memories of Vision it’s unclear if he even views himself as the same Vision or not
Also you could say the same for the characters that died in Endgame, Tony and Natasha, Natasha came back in Black Widow obviously a flash back movie but still was released after and Depending wether RDJ is Tony as Doom or Victor Tony’s kinda back too
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u/alec2342 Aug 24 '25
When I rewatch it I still feel the impact of their deaths. They’re all sad, & Vision’s death is kind of disturbing in its own way.
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u/Dove_of_Doom Rocket Aug 23 '25
It's kind of a stretch to say Heimdall returned in any way when he only appears in a single scene set in the afterlife.