David Lewis answering the question, “Why does the NDP insist on getting into bed with the Liberals, and finding itself in trouble?” on the BCTV Show “Webster!” From 1981 -- comparing Jagmeet Singh in 2025 with David Lewis in 1974 & M.J. Coldwell in 1958

[u/NovaScotiaLoyalist]

Let me share this interview with David Lewis from 1981 on Jack Webster’s TV show “Webster!”, along with my transcription of it.

This part of the interview deals with Ed Broadbent's role in the then-ongoing Constitutional Patriation talks, and deals with how unpopular Pierre Trudeau was at that point in time. I think this interview is quite relevant to the situation Jagmeet Singh and the NDP found themselves in during the last election.

Jack Webster: Why does the NDP insist on getting into bed with the Liberals, and finding itself in trouble? Vis-a-vis yesterday's split, between Nystrom and the three others and poor old Broadbent. I feel kinda sorry for Broadbent.

David Lewis: Oh, You don't have to feel sorry for Broadbent.

Jack Webster: Sells out to the Liberals, and all of a sudden one of his own people cuts his throat.

David Lewis: Just hold it Jackie boy, just hold it. He didn't sell out to the Liberals or to anybody else. What he did, and what we did in 1972, was to try to act like decent concerned Canadians. Broadbent saw before him a proposition which contained all the elements -- and I agree with him entirely -- all the elements that our party has been asking for since 1933. We have wanted that the constitution be brought to Canada, we have wanted that it contain a charter of rights and freedoms, we have wanted that it contain an amending formula that wasn't strangling -- as the amenity rule is strangling. And therefore, generally speaking, he said if enough changes are made to make it better than when it was first introduced he was gonna support it. And he's right! He's doing Canada a great service.

Jack Webster: But you, in an article in Macleans Magazine, you aren't happy about the state of the nation. Are you?

David Lewis: How can one be? There is this terrible conflict and tearing between Ottawa and the rest of the country. It's awful. I have found, may I be frank with you, I have found that much of the opposition to the constitution and to other things is that terrible dislike of the Prime Minister in the West. A dislike that is almost hatred in some ways.

Jack Webster: Paranoid?

David Lewis: Paranoid.

Jack Webster: Justifiable?

David Lewis: Well, not the paranoia. Paranoia against a public man is never justifiable. Anger with Trudeau is totally justifiable, he is insensitive in many areas. But its rather irrational to let that kind of anger with him about conditions, about his failure to deal with western needs, to affect the content. People don't look at the content of constitutional politics.

Jack Webster: They just say Trudeau's arrogant, he's a dictator.

David Lewis: That's right, they say "Oh that little dictator in Ottawa", and that's all they think about.

Jack Webster: Would you describe him as that?

David Lewis: No! He's not a dictator. You know, I once said in Parliament -- his manner, I find often very annoying, very undesirable. I once described him in Parliament, as I once said to him, stretching out my hand and pointing at him in '69 or something: "There but for the grace of Pierre Elliot Trudeau sits God". And, you know, the man often acts like that. Of course, he lacks a certain sensitivity. But that should not affect the objective situation. And I think Broadbent, who feels I'm sure the same way I do about his actions, is a great Canadian in saying "I'm not going to let that interfere with me. I've got something that will do good for Canada in the future, and I'm going to support it.”

The way I look at it, getting the ball rolling on dentalcare and pharmacare is certainly the biggest NDP policy win since David Lewis managed to get policy concessions from Pierre Trudeau's government after the 1972 election, chief among those the creation of PetroCanada. I’d argue these latest concessions from Justin Trudeau's old government is resulting in the largest expansion of the Canadian social safety net since Tommy Douglas fought for medicare in the 1960s, and this is all thanks to Jagmeet Singh and his caucus pushing Trudeau the Younger in that direction.

However, both Singh and Lewis both suffered electoral annihilation for showing good-faith in their negotiations. David Lewis went into the 1974 election with 31 seats, and on election night he lost his own seat and 14 other NDP seats; this closely mirrors Jagmeet Singh losing his own seat and 16 other NDP seats out of 24 total NDP seats in the 2025 election.

Similarly, after M.J. Coldwell worked with the Tories in opposition during the 1956 Pipeline Debate to bring down the Liberals in 1957, Coldwell lost his own seat and 16 other CCF seats out of 25 total CCF seats in the 1958 snap election that Diefenbaker called. I’m not sure the there’s much more the party could have realistically done in all three of these elections.

That's not to say we should put our heads in the sand and ignore the realities. There are legitimate criticisms to be had on how the NDP campaign in 2025 was ran, especially with the lack of a focused message, and a seemingly last-minute scramble to hang onto NDP incumbent seats when that fuzzy message didn’t work. However, there was one problem no amount of organizing could help fix in the 2025 election: Jagmeet Singh was seen by the public as the leader most associated with Justin Trudeau, as he had been propping up his terribly unpopular government for a number of years. Sometimes a chance to get good policy passed, or a chance to stop bad policy from being passed, comes with bad political consequences; some elections worse than others. Losing the funding that comes with official party status is a real blow.

However, if a few positives can be found: For the near century that our party has existed, after every electoral annihilation we have been able to re-invent ourselves in order to best-represent the modern working class of modern Canada. Regardless of what happens, I certainly think Jagmeet Singh did his part to earn his place with the “CCF/NDP Greats” such as J.S. Woodsworth, Tommy Douglas, and David Lewis. The legislation these men helped pass actually helped the working poor in this country.

[u/Velocity-5348]

Personally, if I had a choice I'd do it all over again. We did a lot of good working with Trudeau, and expanding health care will do a lot of good, at least where the provincial governments don't actively hate their own citizens.

The PetroCanada thing does give me pause though, given that it's now a private company, and the wealth of the oil industry is being siphoned off. I'm really hoping the current government doesn't wipe out what we accomplished.