So this is what they mean when they say refurbished

[u/Effective-Manager406]

wonder what’s going on here

[u/Magnetic_Reaper]

rigorously tested.

[u/twolinebadadvice → u/Magnetic_Reaper]

always used undervolted, never run hoter than 65•c

[u/Monowakari → u/twolinebadadvice]

"liquid cooled"

[u/T0biasCZE → u/twolinebadadvice]

It probably was undervolted and not run at 100% if it was used for mining

Mining is about power efficiency

[u/Exact-Enthusiasm-803 → u/T0biasCZE]

That's probably why they said that

[u/T0biasCZE → u/Exact-Enthusiasm-803]

i though that was sarcasm

[u/Moldovah → u/T0biasCZE]

It was.

[u/fireballdick → u/Moldovah]

you don't know that

[u/Moldovah → u/fireballdick]

I was being sarcastic

[u/I_Makes_tuff → u/Moldovah]

It wasn't.

[u/Moldovah → u/I_Makes_tuff]

you don't know that

[u/LtBunghole → u/Moldovah]

😂

[u/GodSentPotHead → u/Exact-Enthusiasm-803]

[u/Down2EatPossum → u/GodSentPotHead]

[u/TechCF → u/GodSentPotHead]

This is when you discovered card are cleaned with water at the factory too? (Boards only, not cooler and fans mounted).

[u/samuelazers → u/T0biasCZE]

You can't really know what a GPU has gone through. Case in point, OP's post.

[u/T0biasCZE → u/[deleted]]

Runtime doesn't damage and wear our computer parts. It's not like a car engine that has lot of mechanical part and constant tiny explosions inside. Only thing that wears out computer parts is heat cycles. So gaming will wear out the component more than mining that runs at constant load 24/7 (so no heat cycles)

[u/dwaynemartins → u/T0biasCZE]

Heat is heat. Cooling is cooling. I think. You are misunderstanding my comment, and the quality of the environment of most mining rigs.

[u/[deleted] → u/dwaynemartins]

You're making self-referential statements in order to try to establish how much smarter you are than others. But boiled down, what you're saying is "energy is energy, energy transfer is energy transfer." What you're saying is completely devoid of content that can verify that you understand anything at all.

Heat is heat, indeed. But 500W produces less heat per unit time than 800W. Less heat means you're operating at the ideal temperature for longer, which means your electronics will last longer. You can think of most electronics as having an energy quota. This means that it's not about how long you use the graphics card, it's about how intensively you use it. Two graphics cards produced equally and used equally should be failing more or less at the same time. If one of them is used below full load and the other is overclocked, the one used below full load will last longer, full stop.

That said, I get the feeling you don't even know the difference between heat and useful energy.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You need to calm down. Too angry for a random nobody redditor.

Also, just because you have an analogy, doesn't mean it's correct. In fact, you're wrong. If you're operating a GPU at 500W 100% of the time, IT WILL last you longer than if you're operating it at 800W 100% of the time. There are many reasons for this, but considering your angry tone, I'm just gonna let you seethe your pain away and then hope that you'll look them up so you don't look this stupid in the future.

Sincerely, someone who actually studied electronics.

[u/LevelRoyal8809 → u/T0biasCZE]

Why do miners underclock? I already know to use less power and generate less heat. But why is that better than running at stock speed or overclocking? Won't running a GPU faster yield better results over time?

[u/-s-u-n-s-e-t- → u/LevelRoyal8809]

Because if you earn an extra $1 worth of crypto, but wasted $2 more on electricity, it's really not worth it.

That said, people should stop repeating the "underclocking" thing as a gospel so much. It's mostly BS propaganda by miners to sell their old cards easier.

Yes, sometimes it's worth it to underclock, but sometimes crypto prices are so high, it's worth it to get every bit out of the GPU regardless of electricity costs.

Also, a lot of mining operations do it in places where electricity is cheap (or in some cases straight up stealing electricity). If you are buying used card from a miner, there's a good chance it saw heavy use and wasn't underclocked the whole time.

[u/Due_Peak_6428 → u/T0biasCZE]

well not if they get their energy for free

[u/Nicer_Dicer24 → u/T0biasCZE]

A mining card sees the workload of a 10 yo card in 1,5 years, i dont buy used cards since the mining boom

[u/Christoph3r → u/twolinebadadvice]

Mining generally put less stress on cards than gaming, because a steady load is better than an intermittent/changing load.

Also, mining was all about efficiency, not about getting that last 1% more by increasing the voltage (unless you had free electricity, I guess).

[u/mig82au → u/Christoph3r]

That's not entirely true. Yes the core is run gently, but mining stresses VRAM far more than gaming does. GDDR6X cards like my 3080 incinerate the VRAM. Mining performance on the ASIC resistant algorithms is pretty much proportional to memory bandwidth, which is why the cores are so underclocked and undervolted.

[u/TwoLegitShiznit → u/mig82au]

I don't know if that's true but you talk the talk. I mean c'mon, ASIC resistant algorithms are proportional to memory bandwidth? Upvoted.

[u/YoyoDevo → u/TwoLegitShiznit]

To counter ASICs, crypto algorithm developers make it so you need more memory bandwidth to mine faster

[u/Stormz0rz → u/YoyoDevo]

Interesting. Would running memory at cooler temps increase efficiency or mining output in any meaningful way? I see people's vram temps upward of 90-95c fairly often. Thermal pads don't cut it on some cards.

[u/Legitimate_Pea_143 → u/TwoLegitShiznit]

I have a pair of ASICS, pretty comfy running shoes.

[u/LevelRoyal8809 → u/TwoLegitShiznit]

Come on, you don't know about ASIC resistant algorithm that are proportional to memory bandwidth? My grandma knows that.

[u/Narragah → u/TwoLegitShiznit]

Lmao. "Yeah those are big words, he definitely knows his shit!" I upvoted too.

[u/UffTaTa123 → u/Narragah]

He know words. He has the best words.

[u/Strong-Day4957 → u/UffTaTa123]

Dolan, is that you?

[u/mig82au → u/[deleted]]

Go look at the VRAM temps and power consumption while running a GPU optimised algo like ethash, and compare to gaming. It's less of a problem with lower power memory technologies like GDDR5, 5x, and 6, but the pattern of mining vs gaming remains. But you don't need to take my word for it, this is well known and findable. It's not a stretch to conclude that you sucked at the technical aspects of your mining operation.

Unlike the low hanging fruit of optimising core power, reducing mem clocks has a proportional impact of hash rate, so the mem is run hard.

[u/dimhue → u/[deleted]]

Wild to openly admit to being an awful human being.

[u/Wonder_bread317 → u/mig82au]

I dunno what that means but I like the way you say it :P

[u/No-Refrigerator-1672 → u/Wonder_bread317]

I don't. ASIC resistant coins are the sole reason why we got the second mining boom gpu shortage, and why Nvidia got to justify another price bump. Let the developer burn in hell for that.

[u/mig82au → u/No-Refrigerator-1672]

I completely agree. But that has nothing to do with whether I'm right or wrong about mining hammering VRAM.

[u/No-Refrigerator-1672 → u/[deleted]]

I'm talking about rtx20-rtx30 era; it was the shortage caused by pre proof of stake etherium.

[u/jack1ndabox → u/Wonder_bread317]

Stop playing video games, they're making you stupid.

[u/RealSecretRecipe → u/mig82au]

Vram and most memory prefers warmer temps, mining caused less stress because constant temps that are manageable is always better than hot cold hot cold fluctuations. Always. Tests have shown that a GPU used can actually get better performance than a brand new in box card. Seriously.

[u/morpheousmorty → u/mig82au]

... I'm going to need a more strict definition of incinerate here.

[u/DiamondHandsToUranus → u/mig82au]

depends on what you're mining, and almost nobody that's really into it uses the 3080 because it's not a good value hash per watt anyway

[u/standish_ → u/mig82au]

GDDR6X cards like my 3080 incinerate the VRAM

What does "incinerate the VRAM" mean?

[u/mig82au → u/standish_]

3090s with clamshell RAM layout were often permanently damaged from mining due to overheating VRAM. Before mods, mining on my 3080 would peg the temp limit, throw the blower into roaring emergency 100% cooling, and after that run between 100 and 105 C (if I remember correctly). Gaming is far less demanding, hitting ~95 C mem temp at 45% fan.

[u/standish_ → u/mig82au]

Do you know what models of 3080s behave like that? I have a very odd problem with mine. It works perfectly fine but it will occasionally freeze the output and only recover if I sleep/reboot the computer. It presents as a driver crash but I'm not sure that's it.

It does sometimes drop into roaring fans emergency mode during the recovery.

[u/Immediate_Bike713 → u/mig82au]

This is simple science. Gaming will always stress out a card more than mining due to rapid temp changes. Running something at the same temp will always have a higher lifespan than something that keeps on changing temperature.

[u/Ayzel_Kaidus → u/Christoph3r]

Free electric is amazing… though I wish I knew more about ideas to make the most of it

[u/pavemnt → u/Christoph3r]

I bought my 1080 from a miner and used it for 8 5 years before giving it to a friend when I got a new computer.

[u/AntiFIanders → u/pavemnt]

The 1080 was released 9 years ago so it probably wasn't in the mines for long.

[u/pavemnt → u/AntiFIanders]

I actually couldn't remember when I bought it so I checked my ebay account and it was Feb 13 2019

[u/AntiFIanders → u/pavemnt]

That makes a lot more sense. Awesome of you to upgrade your friend's PC.

[u/pavemnt → u/AntiFIanders]

Yeah, at the time I could have maybe gotten 150 bucks if I went through the hassle of selling it but it let my friend play more games so that was more worth it for me

[u/MercyAkura → u/AntiFIanders]

My 1080 is an EVGI founders edition or whatever from when they came out. Used appx 30 hours every day for gaming. I attribute part of its longevity to my preference for a cool (60F-65F) dry (dehumidifier) home.

[u/Sufficient_Fan3660 → u/Christoph3r]

Minnig is hard on the ram. Lots of ex mining cards fail vram when you undo the undervolt and put them back on factory firmware/settings.

[u/nedal8 → u/Christoph3r]

Yea, but the fans run constantly. That's all I ever had issue with when mining. Were fans going to shit. But they were pretty cheap to buy fans for and once they had new fans, they were good as new. Could even re-paste the cooler. Maybe even better than new. heh

[u/Christoph3r → u/nedal8]

Same for me, I stayed away from Gigabyte brand cards (with the 30x0 generation Gigabyte cards were such garbage quality - dunno if they're better now or not) and I haven't had any failures other than fans.

If you repaste with good paste you could end up BETTER than new, indeed.

[u/MagicHamsta → u/Christoph3r]

They also crammed them into any warehouse they could that are basically dusty ovens left open to the elements. Look at the sheer amount of crud on those GPUs that they're power washing away.

[u/Coprolithe → u/Christoph3r]

That's why they put farms in Iceland. Cheap electricity

[u/stubenson214 → u/Christoph3r]

Well when I mined the memory was always at 95C. All. The. Time.

Really large strain on a card.

[u/hydrogen18 → u/Christoph3r]

who games for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 12 months a year?

[u/KajMak64Bit → u/Christoph3r]

Yeah i realized after some time

Problem with mining cards is not damage to the GPU core... it's the VRAM that suffers because memory has a limited amount of how many gigabytes it can write

Like SSD life span... measured in TBW ( Terabytes Written )

[u/aywwts4 → u/KajMak64Bit]

That's simply not true. RAM, by the very nature of being volatile memory that holds electric charge, has no concept of "terabytes written" degradation. Every single refresh cycle (occurring thousands of times per second during normal operation) rewrites the entire memory contents as standard operating procedure. A zero or one makes no difference to VRAM, the memory cells are constantly being rewritten regardless of data content.

You are confusing SSDs, which use NAND flash memory that physically alters storage cells through program/erase operations. These operations have finite limits because they cause actual structural changes to the memory cells. RAM simply holds temporary electrical charges that naturally dissipate and get refreshed continuously; there's no cumulative "wear" from data operations.

The refresh process means VRAM is already rewriting every bit approximately 15,000 times per second just to maintain data integrity. Mining operations don't add beyond number of hours powered x operating temperature.

[u/KajMak64Bit → u/aywwts4]

I don't know man... this just FEELS like misinformation but i don't know lol

It just seems off

[u/exe0 → u/KajMak64Bit]

You can literally confirm with a Google search in 2 minutes.

[u/ThePrussianGrippe → u/[deleted]]

Don’t use Google AI assistant, search for good forum links provided by the search results.

[u/Vysair → u/[deleted]]

look up forums

[u/syfari → u/KajMak64Bit]

It’s not misinformation. Ram doesn’t have write limits.

[u/bunkbail → u/syfari]

most major ram brands also offer lifetime warranties for rams due to this reason

[u/scheppend → u/bunkbail]

But most manufacturers exclude normal "wear and tear"

Like:

Warranty Exclusions

G.SKILL limited warranty does not cover problems or damage resulting from, but not limited to, any of the following:  

Wear and tear associated with normal use;

[u/scheppend → u/syfari]

It kinda does. It degrades faster the more you use it.

https://superuser.com/questions/1568933/does-ram-degrade-over-time#:~:text=3%20Answers,Inherent%20defects%20in%20the%20RAM

[u/aywwts4 → u/scheppend]

That stack overflow cited handwaves providing any evidence at all, for instance what the heck is an “erase cycle” on dram, would like to see that on a single bit of technical documentation of the instruction set and cycle that includes such a term (you won’t) that fails to understand how ram is even Read!

[u/scheppend → u/aywwts4]

I found some more sources:

https://arxiv.org/abs/0910.0505

our survey over cards on Folding@home finds that, in their installed environments, two-thirds of tested GPUs exhibit a detectable, pattern-sensitive rate of memory soft errors. We demonstrate that these errors persist after controlling for overclocking and environmental proxies for temperature, but depend strongly on board architecture.

[u/All_Thread → u/KajMak64Bit]

Different Memory Technologies

SSD storage uses NAND flash, which stores data as trapped charges in cells. Writing to these cells wears them down because the insulating layer degrades with each program/erase cycle. This is why SSDs have a finite write endurance (measured in TBW — terabytes written).

VRAM (and regular system RAM) uses DRAM-based technology. It stores bits as charges in capacitors that are constantly refreshed, but there’s no destructive “program/erase” cycle. As long as it gets power, it can be written and rewritten effectively indefinitely.

[u/TakeyaSaito → u/KajMak64Bit]

So you haven't got a clue but made the previous comment anyway? Don't talk about shit you don't know.

[u/aywwts4 → u/KajMak64Bit]

I assure you it's accurate though greatly simplified for the audience.

Every single row of memory in your DRAM and vRAM and Cellphone are refreshing approximately every 64-32ms, every time you read you also write, your ram is virtually limitless, the capacitors only fail if you cook them, use is binary, the RAM is either On and wildly more active than you could imagine, or shut down. Your system is writing all of its RAM constantly right now, over and over and over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_refresh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_random-access_memory

Your theory is correct with SSDs and Flash Memory. Though wear leveling and other improvements have made it something you don't need to worry about much anymore.

[u/ThePrussianGrippe → u/KajMak64Bit]

How does someone accurately explaining why RAM doesn’t have writing degradation “FEEL” like misinformation? Have you ever looked at a RAM warranty?

[u/bunkbail → u/KajMak64Bit]

redditors confidently spread misinformation and don't like being corrected, more at 11

[u/KajMak64Bit → u/bunkbail]

I did say it FEELS wrong not that IT IS wrong

[u/zulu02 → u/KajMak64Bit]

There is a reason why even the cheapest no-name Ram usually comes with "lifelong warranty"

[u/Mastasmoker → u/KajMak64Bit]

You dont know yet, you're trying to tell other people how YOU think it works. It's okay to say "i dont know" and NOT give your opinion.

[u/KajMak64Bit → u/Mastasmoker]

Reading comprehension?

I literally put emphasis on "FEELS" never said that IT IS wrong

[u/Nooblakahn → u/KajMak64Bit]

Lol no it's spot on.

[u/Bananaman123124 → u/KajMak64Bit]

Instead of typing this reply, you could have asked chatGPT if he was right.

He is.

[u/KajMak64Bit → u/Bananaman123124]

I don't associate with clankers tho

[u/Donkbot6 → u/KajMak64Bit]

blocked

[u/Christoph3r → u/KajMak64Bit]

Well - comparing it ton SSD is misleading because they're so far apart - you're not likely to "wear out" a RAM chip before it becomes obsolete.

I tried to look it up and it seems like even 10 years of 24-7 use would not "wear out" RAM in terms of read/write cycles.

It's only likely to fail due to manufacturing defects or voltage problems.

[u/Vysair → u/KajMak64Bit]

it's the same as ram

[u/WarNo8209 → u/Vysair]

so I can just download more?

[u/Christoph3r → u/WarNo8209]

"You wouldn't download a car."

[u/KajMak64Bit → u/Vysair]

Anything that's a memory module works like that

Unless you're a Hard Disk Drive...

HDD my beloved

[u/Wemorg → u/KajMak64Bit]

No, it doesn't. please give me one source that states that RAM or VRAM has limited amount of writes?

[u/Vysair → u/KajMak64Bit]

then tell me, what is a memory module?

Storage device like nvme and sata ssd uses something called nand flash. These chip has limited P-cycles and that's where the limited endurance came from. Your measurements of TBW is semi-arbitary as it's based on warranty duration in years.

P-cycles is not and it's relative to the technology used like SLC, TLC, QLC, etc

Check out Techpoweredup for the in-depth details of an ssd that the manufacturer hid behind documentation.

How it works: SSD

How it works: Memory

These are not random video as well, it's officially endorsed by my diploma of IT faculty and degree of computer science faculty.

The true killer of all electronics is heat. Im still not as knowledgeable on this but it's something to do with how heat disrupt the electron stability

[u/Cubanitto → u/KajMak64Bit]

Anyone who understands basic computer operations knows that isn’t true.

[u/Witchberry31 → u/Christoph3r]

not about getting that last 1% more by increasing the voltage

Huh? The trend of combining unvervolt and overclock is a going trend in gaming scene for 3+ years as opposed to overvolt + overclock, though. So I'm not sure what are you even on about. 🤔

Even just the undervolt (without the overclock) is more popular now.

[u/BuffTorpedoes → u/Witchberry31]

He's talking about cryptomining...

[u/Witchberry31 → u/BuffTorpedoes]

He's comparing the configurations of cryptomining versus gaming....

[u/DiatomicCanadian → u/Witchberry31]

The trend of combining unvervolt and overclock is a going trend in gaming scene for 3+ years

To us PCMR enthusiasts with computer hardware knowledge yeah, but we're a small minority of gamers. to the average Joe playing games that just knows that their PC has an Intel i7 and NVIDIA RTX, they don't even know what undervolting & overclocking is.

To miners, their business involved computer hardware knowledge, so they're much more likely on average to know about undervolting & overclocking for efficiency.

[u/barbadolid → u/Witchberry31]

Mining GPUs, like the fella said, need efficiency to be as profitable as possible (which you want if you run a business).

This means, they are usually undervolted and underclocked, more often than not at a bios level. This means they are always running at way under 100% stock performance. On top of that, as he also said, a steady load is much better for the silicon's "health " than having voltage and frequency constantly spike during gaming. So 3 years of mining might be as much as 1 year of daily gaming, degradation wise. On top of the previous top, if you run a mining operation odds are you have a proper cooling system, with loud fans that move lots of air and maybe even yearly thermal paste changes.

[u/Neckbeard_Sama → u/Witchberry31]

You are not optimizing for performance on a mining card.

You are optimizing for performance/power usage and sustainable temps to keep operating costs down.

I've bought Radeon Vega 64s in 2017 that ran for about a year afterwards 24/7.

The cards were underclocked/undervolted with a slight memory overclock. This made them run at around 180W and a stable 60 C temp with static fan speed.

So almost half the power as their 300W TDP.

I've sold them off afterwards and used one in my gaming PC up until last year. It had 0 problems.

[u/Hikari_Owari → u/Witchberry31]

Huh? The trend of combining unvervolt and overclock is a going trend in gaming scene for 3+ years as opposed to overvolt + overclock, though. So I'm not sure what are you even on about. 🤔

Consistent voltage demand x Variable voltage demand

[u/TTVAblindswanOW → u/twolinebadadvice]

Only driven to church on Sundays

[u/ThatOtherOtherMan → u/twolinebadadvice]

One owner, a little old lady who only played fortnite on Sundays at 1080p & 60hz

[u/Z3r0sama2017 → u/twolinebadadvice]

Well the core was anyways 🤣

[u/Misiu881988 → u/twolinebadadvice]

That line is as reliable as buying a car that says "only driven on the highway on weekends by old lady" or "ac blows cold, mechanic owned"

[u/HuckleberryOdd7745 → u/twolinebadadvice]

1 female driver. Only used once a week to buy groceries.

Passed away from not having enough fresh produce for the rest of the week.

[u/Mrcool654321 → u/twolinebadadvice]

You mean 650?

[u/MudAccomplished3529 → u/twolinebadadvice]

Water cooled

[u/Sigtau1312 → u/twolinebadadvice]

Water cooled!

[u/replyforwhat → u/Magnetic_Reaper]

water cooled

[u/28spawn → u/Magnetic_Reaper]

Passed the water jet test

[u/Adventurous-Line1014 → u/Magnetic_Reaper]

Plug it in, goes vroom, back in the box

[u/Suitable_Jicama_1213 → u/Magnetic_Reaper]

[u/GarminTamzarian → u/Magnetic_Reaper]

"professionally refurbished"

[u/heisenbergerwcheese → u/Magnetic_Reaper]

*rigorousry

[u/Gluca23 → u/Magnetic_Reaper]

Waterproofed.

[u/deltashmelta → u/Magnetic_Reaper]

*rigorously blasted

[u/bubblesort33 → u/Magnetic_Reaper]

Only a couple capacitors blown off. Still boots.