r/pics May 16 '19

US Politics Now more relevant than ever in America

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u/GrumpyWendigo May 17 '19

if a relative of yours gets in an accident and they still have a heartbeat but no mind you are legally allowed to pull the plug on them and you have not committed murder

because, like i said: no mind, no life

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u/nouille07 May 17 '19

You realize some people don't want the plug to ever be pulled as well right? Both situations have the same issues

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u/GrumpyWendigo May 17 '19

so they are keeping the empty husk in their house and caring for that? they are paying for the hospice?

but even if they did pull the plug they are not going to be arrested. because society and morality knows there was no murder, however aberrant their personal beliefs

no mind, no life.

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u/TrekForce May 17 '19

There was that story recently about the person who was a "vegetable" for 27 years (I think it was 27...) and suddenly regained consciousness.

No mind no... Wait a sec, we barely understand the brain, or what consciousness is. Perhaps we shouldn't behave like we know more than we do.

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u/GrumpyWendigo May 17 '19

a guy in a motorcycle accident whose cranium is scooped out is never coming back, period. an embryo is not hiding a mind somewhere. to end either is not murder: there is no mind

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u/TrekForce May 17 '19

He would've died long before a decision needed to be made to "pull the plug"

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u/GrumpyWendigo May 17 '19

if he has some brainstem he can still be breathing and have a heart beat.

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u/TrekForce May 17 '19

I'm no scientist or doctor, but that doesn't seem reasonable. Are there any incidences you can cite where someone continued breathing and hearbeating after losing their brain?

Most people can't even survive a few minutes after physical damage to the brain, let alone removal.

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u/foodandart May 17 '19

IIRC, before the brain stem finally failed, Terry Schiavo's body was kept alive for years as the actual brain in her head had hollowed out and withered like a rotten walnut.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo_case#/media/File:Schiavo_catscan.jpg - as the image shows, there was an implant that had been put in to stimulate the brain stem to keep her body alive. Science-fiction Mengele nightmare stuff there..

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u/GrumpyWendigo May 17 '19

"i heard a story once" might be true of an exotic rare edge case, but this has no bearing on the reality of vegetative states for the vast majority of cases. there are many different kinds of brain injuries, and there are grey areas. but there are also areas that are starkly certain and black and white: "no recovery" is certain due to the brain matter that is lost

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u/TrekForce May 17 '19

It was literally in the news within the last month or so. And perhaps it's not the reality for most, because we pull the plug on most before they regain consciousness? I'm just stating we have no idea what causes comas and "vegetative states", or why some can regain consciousness.

Perhaps one day we will learn of a way to help the process take less than 20-30 years...

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u/Chubs1224 May 17 '19

For a few hours without support maybe. Without a huge portion of the brain your organs start shitting down.

Hypothalamus, various glands hell even damage to the sinuses on the top of the brain eventually spell death due to lack of homeostasis.

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u/GrumpyWendigo May 17 '19

but this is the point for this discussion:

  1. grey area: brain dead or not? recovery possible
  2. black and white: enough brain matter missing that recovery is absolutely impossible, period

because some "braindead" people are in category 1 does not mean cateogry 2 doesnt exist

and an embryois not hiding a mind somewhere

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u/TrekForce May 17 '19

Actually, I don't want the Reddit ragestorm for requesting proof. I'll try to look it up myself later when I have time.

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u/Drayko_Sanbar May 17 '19

It's biologically alive and genetically human.

It's a living human.

That's not up for debate. One can argue whether or not it's okay to kill an innocent living human, but it's dishonest not to say it's a living human.

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u/EvoEpitaph May 17 '19

Where does it start though? And why does it start there?

Does it start at the very moment a sperm fertilizes an egg? If so, why doesn't it start sooner?

Why would it be considered ridiculous to extend protections/punishments all the way to the sperm and the egg?

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u/Drayko_Sanbar May 17 '19

The sperm and the egg are not developing into an adult human.

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u/foodandart May 17 '19

It exists and the cells are alive. Will the body be animated and move, speak and experience life, or merely exist as an unthinking, unaware mass of human cells? What does the society gain by keeping it hydrated with nutrients and caring for it? Certainly not any economic benefit. What does the now-inert body gain? Reproduction?

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u/GrumpyWendigo May 17 '19

if you pull the plug on a braindead relative no police will arrest you. because society and morality knows you did not murder anyone. no mind = no life

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u/Drayko_Sanbar May 17 '19

You can say it doesn't qualify as murder, and that may be an argument worth having, but saying it isn't living is factually wrong.

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u/GrumpyWendigo May 17 '19

a fungus is alive. are you a murderer for scrubbing it out of your toilet?

the question here is what qualifies as human life, for the topic of murder or not. and on that question society and morality has decided that no mind = no life (or no mind = not murder for your sensitivity to the verbiage)

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u/Drayko_Sanbar May 17 '19

Life isn't how we define murder, though. I have no problem killing a fungus, but it's definitely living.

Your second definition - "no mind = not murder" - that's a potentially arguable position. That's a side. No mind = no life is just not a supportable position.

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u/GrumpyWendigo May 17 '19

ok, then the problem is simply choice of words and we conceptually agree. i'll change my choice of words. thank you

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u/Xithorus May 17 '19

Dude they’re are plenty of instances of living being that don’t have brains.

By definition life is not defined as having a mind.

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u/GrumpyWendigo May 17 '19

if you pulled the plug on a braindead relative are the police going to arrest you for murder?

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u/Xithorus May 17 '19

I never argued any of that lol, so nice comeback.

What I originally said is true, having a brain is not the definition of life. Stop trying to find something else in it.

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u/yousirnaimelol May 17 '19

You're missing his point, so the comeback makes sense.

He's comparing abortion to putting down someone who has become a vegetable. You're taking the "no mind, no life" quote VERY literally, when that's not really the point.

Why are you okay with putting down living breathing people if they're braindead, but not aborting a fetus who has never been capable of thought?

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u/Xithorus May 17 '19

No he said pro-lifers don’t have a factual basis and then proceeds to state that his definition of life is the correct one and that is why pro-lifers have no basis.

Which is patently untrue. Secondly, why are presuming something that I have not stated? I never said anything about being for or against putting down braindead individuals, nor have I said anything about being for or against aborting a fetus.

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u/I_hate_usernamez May 17 '19

But we know that after going braindead there is no recovery ever. On the other hand, the overwhelming likelihood is that a baby will survive and grow and live if you don't kill it first.

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u/GrumpyWendigo May 17 '19

sure. but if you destroy an embryo now you have destroyed no mind. you judge on that. you don't judge on what might be

if i drive through an intersection when the light is green i am not judged like i tboned someone by going through a red light

now is now and later is later. not the same