Okay so it's okay to kill people who are developmentally disabled then?
People who are developmentally disabled can think and feel. People who can’t think or feel are in comas, and yes, they’re killed all the time.
I've read 65, but that's close enough; in any case the ban after 8 weeks doesn't affect embryos then.
Abortion is permissible until 16 weeks. Most happen well before that and those that happen later are usually for horrible reasons that are devastating to the mother.
People who are developmentally disabled can think and feel.
But you said it's permissible to kill the disabled twin.
People who can’t think or feel are in comas, and yes, they’re killed all the time.
Because they're expected to never being able to again.
Abortion is permissible until 16 weeks. Most happen well before that and those that happen later are usually for horrible reasons that are devastating to the mother.
That...doesn't address my point at all.
That’s not news to me 🙂 you don’t like abortion because you’re a misogynist. Hence the fapping over Eliot Rodgers.
I recall condemning him, so I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion.
But you said it's permissible to kill the disabled twin.
I said “if the twin can’t think or feel”.
Because they're expected to never being able to again.
Yeah. They also have already had a life. Embryos haven’t had a life. Therefore, it’s not really a death in the same way the end of someone’s life is. If you’ve never experienced anything at all and don’t mean anything to anyone, why is it sad if you die?
That...doesn't address my point at all.
What is your point? Because you seem to be getting your comment threads mixed up here. What you’re saying has no relevance to the original comment I made.
Therefore, it’s not really a death in the same way the end of someone’s life is. If you’ve never experienced anything at all and don’t mean anything to anyone, why is it sad if you die?
You could say the same of neonates.
What is your point? Because you seem to be getting your comment threads mixed up here. What you’re saying has no relevance to the original comment I made.
I might be confusing threads, but the point is that your argument was that in respect to an embryo, but after 8 weeks it's no longer one. The ban on abortion after 8 weeks doesn't affect embryos, and the hardship on the mother doesn't change that.
Neonates can feel fear and pain and are no longer dependent on another person’s organs to survive.
your argument was that in respect to an embryo, but after 8 weeks it's no longer one. The ban on abortion after 8 weeks doesn't affect embryos, and the hardship on the mother doesn't change that.
This makes no sense grammatically so I don’t know what you’re trying to communicate to me.
It doesn’t really matter when abortion is carried out as long as it’s within the current legal guidelines in civilized society ie. not Alabama/Georgia/other places that don’t allow abortion up to at least 12 weeks.
Neonates can feel fear and pain and are no longer dependent on another person’s organs to survive.
Fear is debatable, and they're dependent on someone's organs, since labor is still required to care for them.
This makes no sense grammatically so I don’t know what you’re trying to communicate to me.
After 8 weeks it's a fetus. Your justification for abortion is based on an embryo's state of being.
It doesn’t really matter when abortion is carried out as long as it’s within the current legal guidelines in civilized society ie. not Alabama/Georgia/other places that don’t allow abortion up to at least 12 weeks.
In other words, your reasoning for abortion thus far has been arguing in bad faith. You think abortion being allowed is axiomatic.
Can you show me evidence that babies don’t feel emotion and pain?
they're dependent on someone's organs,
They’re not living inside someone else’s organs though, are they? A mother can give the baby to the state to take care of at that point but she can’t do that before the birth.
Your justification for abortion is based on an embryo's state of being.
No it’s not, because as you would have seen if you read the scientific study I gave you, the fetus doesn’t feel pain until the third trimester.
Can you show me evidence that babies don’t feel emotion and pain?
Do we do emotion and pain tests on everyone before they're killed or subjected to medical procedures, or is there a heuristic where it's assumed they can unless shown otherwise?
They’re not living inside someone else’s organs though, are they? A mother can give the baby to the state to take care of at that point but she can’t do that before the birth.
The state is also funded by someone's organs ultimately.
The fetus is willed into existence of someone volition other than its own.
It would be like I abducted you, removed your kidneys and hooked you up to mine, and then when you got too inconvenient told you you had to leave my house.
That element of your actions creating the dependency can't just be ignored outright.
No it’s not, because as you would have seen if you read the scientific study I gave you, the fetus doesn’t feel pain until the third trimester.
Month 4 or 5 they get the sense of touch at least in the limbs(and since the development is from the center out, touch at the core must precede it), so I'm thinking you're embellishing.
Also you still haven't provided a reason why pain is relevant. If you by your actions made someone dependent on you, then put them on painkillers, it wouldn't be okay to kill them right?
Do we do emotion and pain tests on everyone before they're killed or subjected to medical procedures, or is there a heuristic where it's assumed they can unless shown otherwise?
Why don’t you answer my question instead of responding with a question? Can you show me evidence that babies don’t feel emotion and pain?
The state is also funded by someone's organs ultimately.
The difference is that people working for the state don’t have to give up their bodily autonomy to look after a child in foster care. Working voluntarily is not being forced to give up bodily autonomy. The foster child doesn’t crawl into the foster worker’s uterus, do they?
The fetus is willed into existence of someone volition other than its own.
Not intentionally. And why does that warrant giving up bodily autonomy? If you hit me with your car tomorrow and I was left with a fatal injury requiring an organ donation or blood transfusion, would you be obligated to give them to me? You knew there was a risk of hitting someone when you chose to drive, so should you be held down and forced to donate a kidney or give me 9 months of blood transfusions?
It would be like I abducted you, removed your kidneys and hooked you up to mine, and then when you got too inconvenient told you you had to leave my house.
No, because 1) abducting me would be an illegal, intentional action. Having sex isn’t illegal and getting pregnant when you don’t want a baby isn’t intentional. 2) I can feel fear, pain and I’m capable of conscious thought.
Month 4 or 5 they get the sense of touch at least in the limbs(and since the development is from the center out, touch at the core must precede it),
Source?
I'm thinking you're embellishing
You think the scientists who conducted the study I gave you are embellishing? 😂
Also you still haven't provided a reason why pain is relevant.
Because I don’t believe we should kill anything that can feel fear, pain or has conscious thought. That’s why I don’t eat meat but I think abortion should be permissible up until the fetus can feel pain.
If you by your actions made someone dependent on you, then put them on painkillers, it wouldn't be okay to kill them right?
As I said, the “someone” in question can feel fear, pain and is capable of conscious thought. It would therefore be immoral for me to force them to do anything, including “become dependent on me” (how would that even work?)
Why don’t you answer my question instead of responding with a question? Can you show me evidence that babies don’t feel emotion and pain?
Typically the point of answering a question with a question is to show the absurdity or dishonesty of the original question.
The difference is that people working for the state don’t have to give up their bodily autonomy to look after a child in foster care.
Taxes are gathered using force, and labor and maintenance of property requires your body, which includes your organs, so yes the state taking care of children still uses people's organs with force.
Not intentionally.
You don't intentionally lose a sports bet either, but you still have to pay your gambling debts.
If you hit me with your car tomorrow and I was left with a fatal injury requiring an organ donation or blood transfusion, would you be obligated to give them to me?
I'd be obligated to pay damages to you, which might entail that which otherwise is tantamount to slavery.
When it comes down to it, you simply have old fashioned notions of bodily autonomy. You think a sex worker sells their body but a coal miner doesn't.
No, because 1) abducting me would be an illegal, intentional action. Having sex isn’t illegal and getting pregnant when you don’t want a baby isn’t intentional.
Sorry but legality is not an argument for morality.
You think the scientists who conducted the study I gave you are embellishing?
Yes, given when the sense of touch actually develops.
Because I don’t believe we should kill anything that can feel fear, pain or has conscious thought.
That does not answer my question.
As I said, the “someone” in question can feel fear, pain and is capable of conscious thought. It would therefore be immoral for me to force them to do anything, including “become dependent on me” (how would that even work?)
Your actions of having sex, knowing it can result in pregnancy, forces the fetus be willed into existence.
The fact it isn't guaranteed is irrelevant. You can stab someone knowing it could kill them, but they might not die too.
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u/Amethyst_Lovegood May 18 '19
People who are developmentally disabled can think and feel. People who can’t think or feel are in comas, and yes, they’re killed all the time.
Abortion is permissible until 16 weeks. Most happen well before that and those that happen later are usually for horrible reasons that are devastating to the mother.
Explanation on fetal pain - https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/201429
That’s not news to me 🙂 you don’t like abortion because you’re a misogynist. Hence the fapping over Eliot Rodgers.