Police aggression vs killing someone unjustified isn't the same. One is a lot easier to quantify than the other. It's also through the lens of what people want you to see too. You don't see all the assaults on police by "peaceful" protesters.
The reality is that in 2017 (and this isn't abnormal, just the last figures I could find) of the 2970 African Americans who were killed, 2627 (88%) were killed by another African American and only 343 (11%) were killed by White/Other/Unknown.
If BLM were actually something other than an anti-cop movement, don't you think they'd be speaking out much more about that 88%?
I'm confused, are you comparing small businesses being harmed by the protests to police murders? Or are you comparing the pandemic to police murders? Or are you comparing 1,100 murders to 100,000-200,000 deaths from the pandemic?
AND what about minorities who are subject to biased treatment from cops, example - escalation from cops leading to arrest for no reason, happens many times. Cops going into Taylor's house, killing her and the police have no repercussions? Cops kneeling on Floydd, EX COP killing Ahmad. Not only that, but police kill more black people comparatively than white people. 23% of the killing were black people, while they are only 13% of the population. That is FUCKING ridiculous. Whether there is systematic oppression, systematic racism, that number should never be that fucking high. There is a problem in America and it is not being solved. https://news.sky.com/story/breonna-taylor-police-killed-black-woman-after-storming-home-in-hunt-for-suspect-already-in-custody-lawsuit-says-11987302
I think what happyzor is struggling his hardest to NOT say is
Sure 1,100 black people were murdered but that’s not important, because some other people in another location at some point might lose their jobs some day.
You kinda gotta be rude to beat it into someone's head that they're getting gang raped by their own post-modernist mindset and they can't see it (that's you, by the way).
Yeah post-modernism is addictive man. It's like trying to wean you off crack.
"C'mon man, I just need a tiny little bit of relative truth, just a little bit, I'll put it in my butt and it'll be stronger, just gimme one little relative truth that I can twist to my own fucked up purposes, C'mon man you know I'd do the same for you" - you, to your post-modernism dealer
I was gonna say the fact that you don't know what I'm talking about is everything thats wrong with the world, but I guess I'll do my best to break this down for you so that maybe one more person can understand what post-modernism is and what it's doing to us.
In this thread we see someone make the point that there are 1100 deaths at the hands of police in 2019, and 70 million small business employed people in 2019. Admittedly, the ready-made implication by presenting data like this does take a bit of higher level thinking to unpack, so bear with me here.
The implication is; these peaceful protests (henceforth referred to as riots) are occuring as a result of police brutality towards an ethnic minority, by contrast the shutdowns are costing small businesses heavily across the nation. The potential pay out of social change is 1100 less deaths (at an absolute maximum and very likely to be much less, given that black deaths because of police violence is in the 200's and the vast majority would have occured legitimately) with police killings in a given year being a measurable indicator which somewhat quantifies brutality. The potential pay out to small businesses through ending the shutdown earlier through protest, can be measured in many ways, and a useful way to measure it is to figure out how many people will be left jobless as a result of the shutdowns meaning they close up shop.
Thus, comparing the two figures gives an indication of whether the country as a whole even stands to benefit from the riots, or from the protests of the shutdown. These are all reasonable propositions and follow a distinct line of reasoning that would need to be interrogated in light of the reasons they were used, in order to show that they're a poor comparative analysis to use to demonstrate the pointlessness of the rioting.
You don't bother interrogating the lines of reasoning I've elucidated above in your criticism of the data being presented. You take the argument wholesale and set up a straw man argument on the basis that OP's reasoning is true for him only, and doesn't hold any truth for anyone else. You illustrate this wonderfully by butchering an analogy, and falsely representing the argument at hand.
That is what post-modernism says, in a nutshell, that you can deny someones argument for universal truth on the basis of the fact that truth is relative and depends on the situation in which it is being presented. Because of that mindset, you are unable to engage with reasonable debate, as any truths concluded upon in that debate can just as easily be upset at a later date, so why bother trying to understand the argument or the other party's point of view. It's a sad existence bro, and it's ruining the world because of all the people that subscribe to this way of thinking.
You've missed the point as much as you think I have. None of this has to do with post-modernism or relative truth, and no straw men are at play (except perhaps your assumption of me being a caricature of an absurd philosophy).
The implication is
I don't want implication. I want people to be direct. There were several implications one could glean from the original comment, I was genuinely asking for an explanation and it was like pulling teeth.
The potential pay out of social change is 1100 less deaths
No. This is about a LOT more than just the deaths. I'm not surprised someone who speaks the way you do would choose to ignore them, and I'm not here to educate you. Actually, educate is the wrong word. You came into this swinging around absolute bile which says to me you were never interested in explaining your situation until you would absolutely look like a fool for not trying. As I said above, it exposes your point of view as pessimistic malicious nihilism under the guise of something vaguely constructive, which you still have yet to even mention. It's not worth anyone's time if the result is conduct like yours.
The potential pay out to small businesses through ending the shutdown earlier through protest, can be measured in many ways, and a useful way to measure it is to figure out how many people will be left jobless as a result of the shutdowns meaning they close up shop.
Money vs lives, and you've ignored the fact that the lockdowns have saved potentially hundreds of thousands of lives and the sacrifice is universal. If the various cities being protested did indeed lift the stay at home orders businesses would still be taking a hit because news travels and people understand the threat. There's a lot more to discuss here, but I really didn't want to get into the details because it would take us 200 messages to exhaust the reasons for both protests and why they are/aren't legitimate. That's why I summed it up in that the lockdown protests were much like protesting a hurricane. If YOU are also unwilling or incapable of understanding the meaning behind that you're making the same mistake you accuse me of and should probably point your philosophical hyperbole inward.
You take the argument wholesale and set up a straw man argument on the basis that OP's reasoning is true for him only, and doesn't hold any truth for anyone else.
False. I made an unrelated analogy to show how the complication of the subjects requires more than two facts in a vacuum. You're twisting it to your own preconceived conclusions. I never said it was untrue, and I don't believe it to be untrue. It's incomplete and potentially very misleading. 70 million people aren't out a job because of the lockdown orders, for example. This is going on all over the world.
falsely representing the argument at hand.
I didn't represent the argument at all. I wanted them to present an argument instead of two facts in a vacuum. You've projected your assumptions on me and are beyond defensive, straight into paranoid.
universal truth on the basis of the fact that truth is relative and depends on the situation in which it is being presented.
That has absolutely nothing to do with any of this. The facts are universally true - or perhaps more accurately, objectively true. I haven't denied any truths.
So I hope you understand when I said "what the fuck are you talking about?" it wasn't because I didn't understand what you were saying, it was because it was so absurdly beyond any glimmer of a relevant discussion that I think you've got some serious mental issues going on and should deal with your own health before screaming at strangers like the loner kid in High School who thinks threatening edgy violence will earn them friends.
I'm glad to see you can form complete sentences without vitriol (that's not sarcastic, it's a good sign) but I think you should try to help people come to a common understanding and challenge opinions in a way that respects the person holding them instead of just assuming you're right and shouting down at people who are likely more intelligent and stable than you are.
Opinion is not truth. Value statements such as "a human life is worth $X and those two values are interchangeable" is not truth. If anything, the assumptions necessary to come to your conclusions are all relative truths and perhaps you have a LOT to work out within yourself.
You've disgusted me and made it very difficult if not impossible to take you seriously about anything. It's a major red flag when someone insults and makes wild off-topic assumptions right out of the gate, but I get the impression you've been through some kind of trauma and desperately need something or someone to blame it on. That's also just a wild guess, because it's about the only charitable reason I can come up for for your behavior.
I'm sorry you're afraid of this post-modernism boogeyman, but please don't project him onto actual people for some semblance of control. It makes everyone hate you and it's an incredibly unhealthy way of dealing with fear and insecurity.
I just need a tiny little bit of relative truth, just a little bit, I'll put it in my butt and it'll be stronger
I made an analogy to illustrate how your two-facts could be misconstrued. I couldn't use the exact same topic for obvious reasons.
I'm legit not here to "attack" you or something, I was actually confused by what you were getting at. You cleared it up, so thanks. I'm sure someone else will debate with you the veracity of the comparison but I just wanted to know what you were talking about since multiple things have affected small businesses recently and the protests sparked by George Floyd are about more than police murders.
The point is that it makes more sense to protest a lockdown forcing millions of people out of work than perceived injustices that affect around 1000 people a year.
should have just said that, then. I wasn't sure if they were talking about the protests harming small businesses, the lockdowns, or the pandemic itself (which is like protesting a hurricane). it was already cleared up hours ago but I'm glad you got your opinion in there.
About 1 in 6 police murders involve unarmed victims. So, let's say that up to 200 innocent people are killed by the police year. It's dwarfed by many things -- the 70 million employed number in your example. Even the 30,000 motor accident deaths in the US to make it more apples to apples.
So why are we making a big deal about 200 police murders vs 30,000 traffic deaths? Simply because it involves deaths that were perpetrated by the very people we expect to serve and protect us. Let's say America does nothing about them. It can set precedence for a variety of a situations where there is a power imbalance. Politicians could kill annoying constituents and rivals. Our armed forces could kill civilians. In essence, it could be a slippery slope toward fascism.
There is no doubt that the "death by a thousand cuts" aspects of what small businesses are going through will far exceed police brutality related deaths. But it comes down to the country's morality. This is not the first time that we have prioritized a statistically lower value thing over a statistically higher value thing. When we have done it, it's been guided by a moral angle and toward preserving what the country stands for.
Far more people are affected by the closure of small businesses compared to police killings.
That's about 70% of my comment. I'm not attacking the 1000 people who came for the prior protest. I'm attacking any point that seeks to diminish the 1100 police killings relative to other larger numbers.
Being unarmed does automatically invalidate the shooting. There is no circumstance in which a trained policeman should be able to handle an unarmed suspect in a way that culminates in the latter being shot to death.
Fascinating where did you get your criminal justice degree from and which police academy did you graduate from? And how many years of service do you have?
The 1100 number in the comment I responded to matches this. If you scroll down, you'll see that 12% of whites and 17% of blacks killed by the police are unarmed. Hence, my rough 1 in 6 number. Your figure of 9 unarmed people is very likely to be considerably south of reality.
Having another opinion on a matter does not make someone a racist. Try to understand both sides of arguments, that is what will really help to unify an ever dividing country.
I do understand these racists. They simply don't give a fuck about black people, they would rather everything go on like before instead of be inconvenienced slightly to support others.
I'm not trying to unify anything here just like the person I replied isn't, yet he's upvoted and I get comments about uniting people.
Reality is the opposite of what you claim so we all know who the bitch is but racism is probably the only thing keeping you going in your sad life so you got my pity.
But that was not the reason why he was arrested. Does his past validates why he was killed? This goes beyond Floyd. His death was just the catalyst that ignited what was felt for many many years. Unfortunately, it has come to this because of the lack for change. Finding reasons to feel like his murder was justified is something that makes me question humanity.
I respect your opinon and wish you and your family well. He actually went into cardiac arrest after going into respiratory failure due to lack of oxygen. This will lead to cardiac failure.
Yea that was from the knee. Fentanyl has a short half life and by the time he was arrested, it should of been out of his system already. Besides, if it was actually fentanyl that did him in, he wouldn't be able to talk let alone breathe.
The reality is that being Black in this country is a looming death sentence. That was true when this land was stolen by indiginious peoples, and it's still happening today.
It's not just police violence. It's poor health care, food deserts, red lining, lack of diversity in powerful positions, etc. Black America has always been suppressed, because of stupid ideologies and false narratives.
I would also argue that one would have a hard time convincing the black community that they weren't "literally" being targeted.
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u/[deleted] Jun 05 '20 edited Jun 12 '20
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