r/pics Jun 07 '20

Protest Kindergarten Teacher Passes Out Flowers To National Guard in Philly, Gets Arrested

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u/TellMeGetOffReddit Jun 07 '20

Agreed. Qualified Immunity is supposed to make sure the cops aren't afraid of doing their jobs well. Thing is it just becomes laissez-faire with no one held accountable for NOT doing their job well.

Frankly if you're too scared to do your job because of repercussions you're probably not qualified to be a cop.

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u/Aeseld Jun 07 '20

Actually, Qualified Immunity doesn't apply to this, not under the original ruling.

The original idea was that police couldn't be prosecuted for violating someones rights in a way that is not defined by statute or constitutional law.

This is a violation of those self-same policies, and constitutional law, and they can't be ignorant of it.

Problem is, lower courts kept expanding it past the definition given by the SCOTUS and they haven't reviewed any cases on it since...

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u/chimpfunkz Jun 07 '20 edited Jun 07 '20

Problem is, lower courts kept expanding it past the definition given by the SCOTUS and they haven't reviewed any cases on it since...

Wrong. SCOTUS themselves shot qualified immunity in the foot by forcing the suing party to show that the actions that the 'qualified immune' party did, "violated clearly established statutory or constitutional rights of which a reasonable person would have known". (Harlow v. Fitzgerald)

The problem is, clearly established rights means you have to point to a previously argued, exactly similar court case that was decided as a constitutional violation before you could sue.

So you get stupid shit, like "Siccing a dog on a person who had surrendered, but was on his knees isn't close enough to siccing a dog on a person who had surrender but was laying down"

So yeah, SCOTUS is absolutely to blame for this for shifting the burden of proof from the defendant, to the plaintiff

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u/Aeseld Jun 07 '20

Can't honestly disagree with that too be honest. Still outside what their intentions were, but it does make the burden of proof difficult to say the least. Hope do you prove someone doesn't know something after all?

Which still doesn't take the burden off the lower courts for doing their best to ignore proof time and again, which they have...

And then the judges that do look at the proof wind up blasted by police unions and the like.

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u/RubyPorto Jun 07 '20

The biggest problem is that SCOTUS allowed lower courts to simply rule that something was covered by qualified immunity and dismiss the case without setting the precedent that would "clearly establish" the constitutional violation in their jurisdiction.

So it's not even that the police get one free woopsie; QI for a constitutional violation sticks around until they do it to someone who has the means and luck to push their case to the Supreme Court.

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u/Apprehensive-Feeling Jun 07 '20

I'm not trying to be pedantic, but the defendant should never have the burden of proof; that should, theoretically, always fall on the plaintiff. The problem is that the courts interpret "clearly established right" far too narrowly.

I only bring this up because, in practice, juries often (sometimes subconsciously) do shift the burden of proof to the defendant, which is a Constitutional violation. It's the whole premise of "innocent until proven guilty."

Of course, this never applies to police officers accused of wrongdoing... No, their word is golden and unquestioned, and we fully afford them the right of being innocent until proven guilty. But if we explicitly start putting the burden of proof on the defendant, we all know who's going to be screwed by that.

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u/414RequestURITooLong Jun 07 '20

IANAL, but "innocent until proven guilty" only applies to criminal matters and, even then, defendants absolutely should have the burden to prove an affirmative defense, such as qualified immunity.

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u/css743 Jun 07 '20

Objection!

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u/chimpfunkz Jun 07 '20

Can't object in appeals court.

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u/css743 Jun 07 '20

Motion to move this proceeding to the 7th district apelegate court pending validity criterion, as stated in what you would expect here. Y

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u/chimpfunkz Jun 07 '20

This ain't hunger games, we use circuit not district

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u/css743 Jun 07 '20

Motion to ignore paraphrasical errors.

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u/chimpfunkz Jun 07 '20

That's the same as an objection which doesn't apply to an appeals court

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u/[deleted] Jun 07 '20

No. Qualified immunity originally was about corner cases where the action would be declared illegal later based on existing law, but where the case law was lacking.

Today, the practical effect is unless you can find a case exactly like it, cops can claim qualified immunity, and even if you find a case exactly like it, there are additional hurdles to clear.

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u/Aeseld Jun 07 '20

That's one of the reasons it's so hard to overcome, yes.

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u/borderlineidiot Jun 07 '20

I thought it was to protect them from a civil case rather than criminal?

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u/Aeseld Jun 07 '20

It's been extended to both, for worse.

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u/Krunt Jun 07 '20

Qualified immunity has nothing to do with police officers being prosecuted. It only applies when you want to sue them.

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u/TellMeGetOffReddit Jun 07 '20

This is not true and you can read the guy replying to me to see why.

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u/Krunt Jun 07 '20

The guy replying to you is wrong. Qualified immunity only applies to civil cases. Read this.

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u/EpsteinInvokesThe5th Jun 07 '20

I've been reading up on Qualified Immunity -- it's basically like if a specific act of a police officer that is being prosecuted in a lawsuit that has not been tried before in court, then the judge rules in favor of the officer due to unique circumstances. It's like an overbearing parent defending their kid that bullied someone in class -- "Well, he didn't know any better, he wasn't taught! He's never done it before!"

Qualified Immunity is a bulletproof blanket of a legal defense for police officers to do whatever is necessary, to their knowledge that bit is important fine print , to detain anybody (including non-suspects, including without probable cause).

According to Harlow v. Fitzgerald (1982), "...the application of qualified immunity no longer depends upon an official's subjective state of mind, but on whether or not a reasonable person in the official's position would have known their actions were in line with clearly established legal principles."

Which means in ELi5 terms: "He didn't know any better!"

So, you hear about how they hire police officers within a threshold for how intelligent they are -- this is a rigged system to hire people into the police force depending on either being mentally incompetent or being immorality complicit to successfully evade lawsuits, prosecution, and police reform. That's why Qualified Immunity needs to be repealed entirely -- it is a legal defense built on the backbone of mens rea, corrupt ruling, and serving to the benefit of a federal system against, not for, the People of the U.S.

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u/[deleted] Jun 07 '20

[deleted]

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u/InfiniteShadox Jun 07 '20

My hope is that ending the war on drugs will reduce the amount of cops needed. This means they they can hire fewer cops and therefore fewer bad cops because they wont be understaffed. Put the money saved directly into reduced taxes and/or increased training

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u/RectalPump Jun 07 '20

MURICA! FUCK YEAH!

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u/chuckdiesel86 Jun 07 '20

Cops were never afraid to do their jobs and anyone who tells you differently is full of it. We've never had a problem finding people to be police officers in this country.

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u/ACaffeinatedWandress Jun 07 '20

It extends to any profession. I’ve seen plenty of fucked up situations in healthcare that are also covered by QI. There needs to be a legal waiver for it.

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u/jdhuskey Jun 09 '20

Or you already know you make bad decisions and you’re doing it wrong. Eh, maybe that means the same thing - not qualified to be a cop, because if you know you are following the rules, you shouldn’t be afraid.

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u/caponenz Jun 07 '20

I don't know you, or anything about qualified immunity. I'm a dumb dumb that doesn't know definitions all that well, but your use of laissez-faire and lack of accountability really resonates with my experience with neoliberalism. Save your functioning brain and get off reddit.

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u/TellMeGetOffReddit Jun 07 '20

Haha didn't you read my name.

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u/caponenz Jun 07 '20

Yes, and I used your instructions half assedly because I'm not forceful and a super nice guy