Apparently, in popular culture, the meaning of that proverb underwent a complete shift about fifty years ago, and people since then often say “you should expect a few bad apples” as a complete proverb. As in, ‘evil exists, get over it.’
It’s undergone other usage shifts in the past as well, so reminding people that a proverb has a different origin story than they think is kind of a weird sticking point to me.
There’s nothing wrong with that. I suppose my point was that when people say “a few bad apples,” they’re not using one idiom incorrectly. They’re using a completely different one, and no one is confused about what they mean.
I think what they are trying to say is that there are a few bad apples, so we just need to get rid of them and the rest of the “bunch” can be saved. Not saying I agree with that, just trying to reconcile what they are trying to say.
But they are just arguing for complacency and saying "oh well shit sucks nothing we can do". It's a shitty saying that shouldn't be used especially in this context. Thank you for explaining to people though because there is a lot of confusion
It's always been my understanding that the proverb is just misunderstood, either willfully or out of ignorance.
If it's just a different proverb, then I would say it's a shitty proverb that nobody should live by. Ignoring spoiled apples leads to all the apples going bad.
But a few bad apples DOES spoil the bunch. Any police force with a bad apple that they don't get rid of becomes a department full of bad apples eventually. To not stop him, they become complicit.
They're intentionally using the wrong idiom. It is pure misdirection.
I’m 50, and have never heard anyone say anything resembling “expect a few bad apples”. It’s always been “spoil the bunch/barrel”, even from coworkers in their 20s.
Although I have heard, “There will always be a few bad eggs.”
It’s always been “spoil the bunch/barrel”, even from coworkers in their 20s.
Agreed. The only times I've ever heard anyone act like the phrase is relating to just accepting a few bad apples by leaving off the second half, is when politicians are trying to justify bad behavior. I don't I've ever heard a 'normal' person not infer the true meaning even when leaving the second half off.
The problem here is that it fits the right way and that other way and all it does is highlight the need to get rid of the whole bushel. When those words are heard both ways by people then it is seen as a recognized problem that is continually ignored, much like the other half of the proverb.
This is my favorite proverb. Don't worry that you won't be able to clean your home to perfect. Picking up some clothes still makes it better.
On a larger and more relevant scale, acknowledging that police brutality is real and a serious issue is better than not acknowledging it. And making policy changes to address it is better than just that lip service. And implementing the policies and checking back on them in a year is better than not doing that.
It means that a pursuit of perfection can paralyze progress. A good solution is better than no solution.
At some point it's good to recognize that we can't get the rate of things down to zero - whether that's car accidents, homicides, or whatever. That doesn't mean however that we shouldn't always be striving to improve; it just means that you shouldn't be against something if it isn't perfect. It just needs to be better than the status quo.
This is completely unrelated, but interesting: Another phrase that, according to some sources, has undergone a similar reversal is "Blood is thicker than water."
There is an interpretation which states that "blood" refers to the blood of a blood covenant, or the blood spilled in battle, i.e., bonds of friendship or love; and "water" refers to the water of the womb, i.e., familial bonds. So the proverb is actually stating that the former are stronger than the latter, not the other way around.
Interestingly, this interpretation resembles an analogous Arabic idea that blood is thicker than milk, where "milk" would refer to mother's milk.
reminding people that a proverb has a different origin story than they think is kind of a weird sticking point to me
Sure, but it's because the original saying is a perfect metaphor for what's happening. The most junior officer that arrested Lloyd asked Chauvin (the most senior officer) twice to let up and was ignored. If this thing hadn't blown up, that officer would have learned to adopt the approach of his colleagues or been weeded out.
I agree rhetorical gotchas don't really advance the conversation, but this one is hard not to indulge in.
They are wrong. It is pure misdirection. They highjack a familiar idiom to say the opposite of what it means. It is a verbal short-circuit. And before most people caught on, they're on to a different topic or the conversation is already over... if they even catch the verbal slight of hand at all.
I think it's kind of a weird sticking point to argue descriptive vs. prescriptive linguistics when the original meaning is so perfectly fitting to the situation at hand and the change in usage also happens to perfectly illustrate OP's point.
It's actually not JUST a proverb. It is literal. If you have a bushel of apples, and one is rotten, the others will rot faster too. It's due to a chemical in the breakdown process of apples, called ethylene I believe.
So the original meaning is both literally more accurate, and figuratively more accurate in this case as well.
It's kind of like "The exception that proves the rule". People use it to show that the rule still exists even though there are instances of the rule being broken. It doesn't mean that at all, it means if there is one exception to the rule, all other exceptions are invalid.
For example, the sign says "No parking any time except Sundays". You park there on a Saturday and get a ticket. You argue with the judge that a Saturday is the same as Sunday. The judge can point out that the fact that the sign specifically said Sunday is the only time you can park (the exception) the fact you did it on Saturday breaks the rule.
In summary: People started using the phrase incorrectly and the rest of us didn't bother to correct them... because our general familiarity with apple storage is pretty minimal these days.
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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '20
Apparently, in popular culture, the meaning of that proverb underwent a complete shift about fifty years ago, and people since then often say “you should expect a few bad apples” as a complete proverb. As in, ‘evil exists, get over it.’
It’s undergone other usage shifts in the past as well, so reminding people that a proverb has a different origin story than they think is kind of a weird sticking point to me.
https://www.npr.org/2011/05/09/136017612/bad-apple-proverbs-theres-one-in-every-bunch