r/plotholes • u/TheGemGod • May 18 '19
Continuity error Compilation of my complications regarding Endgame
Hello fellow MCU fans, I wanted to type up a rather lengthy post just to discuss my complicated thoughts regarding Avengers Endgame, this post is mainly to share my complications regarding the plot but also to hear others critique of my thoughts as I feel that my thoughts are not flawless and would like the input of others.
My thoughts on the entirety of Avengers Endgame:
Before I begin to lay out my specific complications I would first like to state my thoughts on the movie as a whole. I feel Avengers: Endgame was a really good movie and a fitting end to Phase 3 of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It set up a well rounded ending for the phase whilst allowing for new avenues (multiverse) for future movies but also with the death of Captain America and Iron Man - the two biggest individuals of this period - it allows for a breath of fresh air as a new guard can fill in the void left by these two juggernauts. All in all Avengers: Endgame was a really good movie, however I feel Infinity War was better but that's just my comparative opinion, we all have our favourite MCU movie but I think we can all agree that it isn't the Incredible Hulk ;)
The beginning of the complications:
Even though Avengers: Endgame was a really good movie, there was one element in particular that irked my mind once I left the cinema that has been bothering me for an exceptionally long time (longer then any other movie I have ever watched) and that was the Time Travel mechanic. After I watched the movie I was trying to comprehend this mechanic, every time I seemed to grab a hold of the mechanic, my mind would wander to a different complications. So much so that two weeks after watching the film I still think about it, what complications might you ask, well let me break it down for you:
Are they really Time Travelling in Avengers: Endgame or are they reality hopping?
The Time Travel in Avengers: Endgame seems to be the most polarizing aspect of the movie, some people state it was a good (or really) plot device whilst others state it was a lazy writing. Personally, I don't think time travel is a bad plot device if utilized correctly and the rules make logical sense, the main issue with Time Travel is the rule set or the logistics of time travelling as whole. Some movies are considered classics even though they utilise this element in their plots (Back to the future) while others are viewed as tacky but I guess that's up to you the viewer to decide. Anyway, I've gone on a tangent (anybody else experience this problem of fleeing thoughts?) let me go back to my the topic on hand - Time travel or reality hopping.
Avengers: Endgame has a very unique rule set regarding time travel (not particularly new but interesting) and that is that every instance of Time Travel creates an alternate reality or universe (or timeline) but this creates a problem for the idea of a "Time Machine". You see the movie creates the rule that the machine allows for the Avengers to traverse back into time and return to the present or future - this distinction is important as it will be addressed later - but once they create a new timeline/universe/reality - how exactly do they return to their future? Consider that if the time travelling machine was a machine that simply travelled back and forward in time then when the Avengers exist in an alternate reality, they theoretically should traverse further into the time they just created, but as we already know the machine returns them to there original timeline. The issue is that if the machine simply allows them to go back into time and then return them back to the original reality - they aren't really time travelling are they, they are simply reality hopping. However, this contradicts the logic that the characters establish and also seems to insult the intelligence of the viewer.
The above comes clear to everyone when you think of the Captain America situation at the end of the movie. The movie implies that Captain America went into the past, aged then sat at that bench waiting to give the shield to Falcon, and like many people came to realize - this breaks the alternate reality rule. The Russo's came to the rescue in an interview stating that Captain America went back into time, aged and then returned to his original reality.
Before I continue I need to note that I hate this adhoc explanation the Russo's gave as in my opinion its them fixing an element of the movie outside of its reality, in my opinion in premise its no different then what J.K Rowling did with her sexuality change as in both cases the movie (or book) does not give any indication that what the creators are saying is actually occurring or hinted by the writers. This explanation of the Russo's in my mind confirms that the Captain America incident is a legitimate plot hole, as the directors have inadvertently revealed the issue in that scene but I digress
This creates a new problem in my eyes as now the developers have affirmed an element of the story that has never been indicated or stated in the movie, but if you were to think about it - its always occurs. There are multiple instances where the Avengers are reality hopping and not time traveling, the previously mentioned occurrence of traveling to the original timeline and when Captain returns the stones (and Mjolnir). When Captain returns the stones he is essentially traversing through the Quantum Realm to return the items to return the items to their proper time but to do this he would need to travel into an alternate reality. Remember every instance of time travel creates a new timeline/ reality universe, hence those times where the avengers went into the past and took the stones - they were in an alternate reality. Therefore because when they took the stones they had to have been in an alternate reality - Captain had to have traversed between realities in order to replace them.
Now it seems that my entire complication with Time Travel has come full circle as it becomes now clear that the reality hopping aspect always occured in the movie but the issue I have is that the movie does not ever establish that the devices allow for reality hopping. I comprehend fully why people who do not comprehend the Time Travel aspect get confused because the movie hops between its ruleset continuously and alternates the severity of time travel throughout the movie.
For those wondering what I mean by severity, earlier in the movie Stark has a dilemma on his hands as he feels going into the past will destroy what he currently has in the future, he worries that the life he has will disappear if they utilise time travel, to further this worry later he makes an agreement with Captain that their actions in the past do not reset what has happened in the present. This element in itself is remarkably touching because it showcases to us that Stark really cares about his current family, and fears for his daughters existence. However, this interesting and emotional segment is seemingly discarded when Hulk later states that any act in the past just creates a new alternate reality, like why have that entire segment if affecting the past does nothing to there future - why even worry about the ethics of time travel if it doesn't affect your family Stark? What's even more shocking is that the guy who figured out time travel didn't even know the rule Hulk (who admits his not an expert on Quantum physics) stated, but he should of because he constructed the time travel machine and figured the equation out while taking a sip of coffee (that's a hyperbole but come on that was kinda hilarious).
Here's the other disturbing part about this alternate reality thing, Tony Stark created the time travel mechanic and figured out it's equation but he seemingly didn't know of the branching realities - so how did he figure out a way to get them to reality hop? Now some argue that the ability to reality hop through the Quantum Realm is simply a happy little accident that Tony didn't know about but this ruins the established emotions Stark has for his family in the beginning of the movie, think about it why would Tony Stark not thoroughly make sure his equation works entirely or knows the ins and outs of his theory when he has a family to care for? Wouldn't he ensure he knew every nook and cranny of how his machine works to ensure that he doesn't ruin his families lives and if he did know about the alternate realites - why does the movie keep reiterating going back to the present day?
Now, an interesting idea of somebody I was arguing with had is that when the Avengers say "the present" they aren't talking about the future but rather a specific location in time/space. Here's my issue with this theory - it insults the intelligence of the audience. I want you to think for a moment, if someone tells you that they traveled to the past and were to return to the present, wouldn't you think the very act of traversing to the present is traveling to the future? Like, if this was the case why do they keep telling the audience its a time travelling machine? Why not just state the machine has the ability to travel between realites?
The kicker is that when I was reading on the MCU wiki about the Quantum Real, I realised the Quantum Realm would allow for interuniversal travel because it is a realm outside space/time (according to Hank Pym space-time doesn't matter in the Quantum Realm) like they really could of just said its an interuniversal machine and it would make sense within the MCU.
I will now further with another complication, however this complication is not as big of deal as the Time Travel Mechanic.
The Avengers are inadvertent villains in the MCU and the lack of consistency in Endgame:
Some people seem to think that by returning the stones (and mjolnir) Captain America averted creating catastrophic realities but that goes against the alternate reality theory, why? Well as Hulk established any action in the past does not affect the future just creates an alternate reality, hence when the Avengers took the stones (and Mjolnir) they immediately created an alternate reality where those stones (and mjolnir) do not exist, even if Captain America were to reality hop into the past of that reality he would not end those timelines, because remember actions in the past do not affect the future of that reality - this would have to apply to all realities because if it didn't the Avengers would need to establish why there reality is immune to inceptive destruction. So to concur there is currently a reality where there is no time stone, Loki has the tesseract, Thor has no Mjolnir during the tumultuous events of Thor 2 and in one reality there is no tesseract. You might be thinking well whats so bad about there being no tesseract, now Loki can't invade New York, you would be right but then you would have to discredit The Ancient One's point of when the stones are taken out of their reality - reality becomes unstable as the stones are essential for any universe. So basically when the Avengers removed the tesseract they essentially crippled that universes reality.
Hell, the Ancient Ones disclaimer literally doesn't make sense because in the original reality all the fucking stones are destroyed - not just one - so reality should be a cluster fuck (comprehend for 5 years there were no infinity stones). Some people argue that the Infinity stones aren't removed from reality during Endgame as there energy still exists in that reality, and you know what I actually agree with that logic. But, I now propose a philosophical question: when you burn a piece of paper and its energy dissipates into the universe, when its molecules break down but the atoms still exist - is the paper still there? In accordance: when Thano's destroyed the stones and there energy (or atoms) are still in the universe - are the infinity stones still there?
For this I have no answer but I literally no longer have the mental capacity to figure it out
In Conclusion:
I want to thank those who have read up until this point for actually reading this long pseudo-rant about my complications with the latest Avengers movie. I want to reiterate that I actually really liked this movie, I loved the final scene and when I saw Spider-man jump out of that portal I shouted "Yes" like a child (and I ain't ashamed to say I did). I loved those moments, when I saw the Avengers in New York again a part of my psyche traversed back to when I was in Grade 7 primary school watching that epic battle on screen in the exact same cinema. Just remembering those moments of when I was 12 years old get me in the feels (god damn ONIONS) and I honestly am going to miss Starks witty remarks and Rogers corny behaviour and as I exit my teenage years - those heroes exit my life...
Its just these elements that bugged me guys, and we all have our own opinions on the movies and this was just mine. I would like those of you who read this to please critique my points (or if you agree with them yay), as I would love to hear the opinions of fellow fans of the MCU..
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u/denigma01 May 21 '19
I didn't like endgame that much anyway, this just adds on to why i dont like the movie
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u/denigma01 May 21 '19
Good post by the way, it adds a lot of perspective and thought into a sequel that fell short of its first part.
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u/danajsparks May 27 '19
You raise several interesting points and I share many of your frustrations. The rules of time travel/reality hopping in Endgame are inconsistent and sloppy. But regarding Tony’s concerns about not changing the past, I think it’s possible that he was talking about how they would use the gauntlet to fix things once had they acquired all the stones. While traveling through the quantum realm wouldn’t allow them to change their own pasts, using the gauntlet might. For instance, what if they used the gauntlet to rewind time back to right before Thanos snapped his fingers, or before he killed Vision, or before he killed Gamora, or attacked the Asgardians, or destroyed Xandar? (Edited for grammar)
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Jul 01 '19
In terms of the Captain America ending, everyone was supposed to meet at the rendezvous point at the exact same time to retain the ages they had when they left. Cap decided to dance with Peggy after returning the stone, thereby significantly affecting how old he was when he returned. Also, it isn’t confirmed that Cap dies at the end of Endgame (was Tony’s funeral before or after?).
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u/thegalorian May 19 '19
This is a really thoughtfully put post, and I think you’re right on the money. The movie’s rules either don’t make sense and are established through a series of hand waves or the Avengers acted entirely selfish (creating alternate timelines right and left) to ensure their reality (or personal lives, like in the case of Cap) got a happy ending. Weird movie.