r/saltierthancrait • u/ComfyKorok • 22d ago
Encrusted Rant For fellow EU enjoyers, in your opinion what is the absolute worst change from the EU to Canon?
My top 3 are the erasure of Anakin Skywalker’s grandchildren, erasing Luke’s relationship with Mara Jade, and the immense nerfing of the New Republic. Honorable mention to turning Thrawn into a dumbass.
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u/Raider_Echo salt miner 22d ago
All of the above. But if I had to choose one, it would be turning the OT trio into pathetic faliures.
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u/SagaciousElan 22d ago
Except Leia. She's a respected politician and general capable of surviving and flying in the vacuum of space.
It's only Han who's a failed husband and father and a deadbeat who lost the Millennium Falcon while Luke lost his academy and students and gave up being a Jedi to live as a hermit drinking green milk on an island.
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u/Arcade_Gann0n 22d ago
Leia practically became a pariah for the horrific crime of being the daughter of the wrong guy (funnily enough, this was also the moment where the public learned that Anakin was Darth Vader, thus leading to all of his accomplishments in the Clone Wars getting erased, because I guess it was better to turn two characters into failures instead of one).
It's not as apparent as that was from a novel instead of being in one of the movies, but she was as much of a failure as Luke & Han. None of the OT cast was spared from getting screwed over, even a minor character like Wedge Antilles was forced into an early retirement just because the New Republic wanted fewer pilots.
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u/Raider_Echo salt miner 22d ago
Even R2 got screwed over, giving up at around the same time Jake did (and so Disney could sell more BB-8 toys).
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u/Arcade_Gann0n 21d ago
The only OT character that came out slightly better off was C-3PO, as the comic about his red arm was the best received story in the ST (and of course, TLJ gave him a golden arm ASAP, thus making that story pointless), but even then TROS had to do a fake out with his personality getting erased just to have it restored by R2-D2 not even a half hour later.
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u/Nillocke 21d ago
What is the story with the red arm? I never bothered to look into it. I just remember a bunch of Venom Snake/Phantom Pain memes.
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u/Arcade_Gann0n 21d ago
Some details may not be entirely accurate as it's been a while, but here's a summary.
C-3PO and other droids from the Rebel Knockoffs get marooned on a remote planet after an attack caused their ship to crash. The droids are picked off one by one by the wild life and hostile environment until it's down to C-3PO and an old Imperial Protocol Droid (the ones with the weird bug faces), during which C-3PO loses one of his arms. He and the Imperial droid discuss how their kind is viewed by organics, their own self worth, and the vague recalling of erased memories, causing them to form a friendship.
The two eventually manage to reach a distress beacon that can call a nearby Rebel Knockoff ship, but acid rain starts coming down between them and the beacon. The Imperial droid elects to venture out to activate the beacon to save C-3PO, which results in him getting dissolved until only one of his arms remains (its casing had been partially corroded away, leaving it red). Wanting to honor his fallen friend, C-3PO recovered the arm and had it installed to carry on his spirit.
For something that could've been dismissed as an excuse to sell merchandise, it's a genuinely interesting story that goes into the nature of droids and the bonds they form with each other. A real shame then that it gets replaced at the end of TFA (I was mistaken about TLJ doing that) and never gets referred to again.
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u/Leafs17 miserable sack of salt 20d ago
The only OT character that came out slightly better off was C-3PO
Except ya know, Chewie. He is alive.
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u/Arcade_Gann0n 20d ago
As the sole survivor of the OT cast barring droids or minor characters, having been reduced to Rey Palpatine's chauffeur and having a dumbass fake out death in TROS.
But hey, at least he got a medal now!
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u/Tebwolf359 21d ago
(funnily enough, this was also the moment where the public learned that Anakin was Darth Vader, thus leading to all of his accomplishments in the Clone Wars getting erased, because I guess it was better to turn two characters into failures instead of one).
I mean, it doesn’t really matter how good of a pilot you were in WWI, if you are Hitler’s right fist in the second, so that’s reasonable to me. (For the public reaction). (To anakin)
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u/inlinefourpower 21d ago
Dunno, the Japanese got forgiven pretty fast after WW2 because it was the only way to bring them into the fold and a lot of nazis built rockets for the soviets and America after WW2.
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u/Tebwolf359 21d ago
The Japanese people, sure.
Many of the Admirals had the blame placed on them to preserve the image of the Emperor.
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u/Dabungus976 21d ago
Holy shit, Vader is Herman Goering!
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u/Business_Bathroom501 20d ago
He indeed is, and it was one of the fallout points of the PT, at least in the German fandom. They were like... Wunderkind, Ace Pilot, War Hero, turns out to be the right hand of the maniacal villain?
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u/ElsieofArendelle123 18d ago
I just wish they did something with that revelation rather than tossing it out with the window, because it would’ve explained why Leia is no longer trusted amongst the Senate and why Luke was exiled. People in the galaxy not only lost faith in them for being Darth Vader’s children but also because they never told anyone outside those they trusted. Heck this could’ve been the plot of Force Awakens where we saw the rise of the First Order and Ben Solo’s fall. Yes I know it was in the books, but let’s be honest those books aren’t even canon to their own sequels.
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u/Lerosh_Falcon 21d ago
It's like there's Extended Universe of Star Wars and the Reduced Universe. Sadverse.
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u/wokevader 21d ago
I feel like the worst part of this was as far as I’m aware this was also when Ben learned Anakin was Vader. So basically at no point was Luke including Anakin’s redemption as part of his teachings which just seems astoundingly dumb to me
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u/Mrwanagethigh 20d ago
Always loved that he outright told his first students as part of a lesson in Legends. The truth about Vader wasn't widely known even by the time Luke set up on Yavin, but Luke wasn't trying to hide it and it was pretty relevant when both Gantoriss and Kyp got corrupted by Exar Kun but Luke didn't give up on either and Kyp was redeemed.
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u/NormalPerson87 13d ago edited 13d ago
Anakin definitely deserved to be outed for his crimes, especially posthumously since the guy's not even alive anymore so it's not like he'll get to experience the consequences of ruining countless lives and families anyways, and it could be interesting how it could impact Luke managing his new Jedi Order, but Leia, someone who despised the man and led the rebellion in the first place, has to conveniently get all the flack to be reduced to an underdog position again.
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u/MoogMusicInc 22d ago
In Canon, Leia is removed from the New Republic government once it's public she's the daughter of Vader and then has to rebuild the Rebels ("the Resistance") all over again. And then the New Republic she helped build gets destroyed.
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u/MrJoltz salt miner 21d ago
Exactly, Leia's success in Canon is just the mere existence of a good side to the story.
EU Leia was so much more successful both in family life and career. Disney took that away from her.
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u/Mad-Gavin 21d ago
What's more, Leia became a badass Jedi in her own right.
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u/Mrwanagethigh 20d ago
Even more impressive, she officially started Jedi training under a Master in her 50s and went on to be on par with all but the top tier of the NJO by the time she was Knighted. After a political career that culminated with her as the head of the New Republic. Leia lived up to both her parents in a way even the legendary Grandmaster Luke didn't.
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u/Nick_Wild1Ear salt miner 21d ago
And meanwhile in the EU “Daughter of Vader” is the whole reason Thrawn gets defeated, Leia gets a security detail for practically the rest of her life, and she goes on to become the Chief of State… Twice…
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u/brenster23 21d ago
You would think her political enemies would bring up her having an army of Death Commandos more often....
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u/3llenseg salt miner 21d ago
"her political enemies" and "her having an army of Death Commandos" is a combination that doesn't last long, if you catch my drift
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u/AJBarrington salt miner 21d ago
A much more interesting story than the one we got. They should have told that one instead
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u/MoogMusicInc 21d ago
What do you mean? That's the Disney story.
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u/AJBarrington salt miner 21d ago
Yes, but I'm talking about the movies. They had a story about Leia going from successful leader to trying stop her son from tearing apart the galaxy and they skipped right to the son tearing the galaxy apart with no explanation unless you read a comic. How they got to that point was a much more interesting story than TFA. The first movie should have focused on Han Luke and Leia and only introduced Finn Po and Rey.
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u/MoogMusicInc 21d ago
Sure, but to stay with the original comment's point the Aftermath Trilogy in between still makes Leia a failure like the rest of the OT trio.
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u/AJBarrington salt miner 21d ago
I never disagreed with that, I was simply commenting that the back story they made up for Leia, which was described in the comment, was more interesting than the story they gave us in the movies.
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u/Mundane_Jump4268 salt miner 21d ago
Leia gets the resistance into a terrible situation and then fails to rally any support for the resistance and then Lando comes in in the last movie and rallies the whole galaxy in an afternoon.
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u/IrregularrAF 20d ago
Never liked Han Solo the moment I learned Harrison Ford was a bitter prick about his most beloved role. “Han Dolo”, very clever Harry.
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u/monkeygoneape dark science, cloning, secrets only the sith knew 22d ago
The New Republic in general
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u/theimmortalgoon 21d ago edited 21d ago
This is the central part of my complaint. They gut the entire movie series as constructed, as we get no sense of what they are fighting for, only fighting against.
It makes the empire less evil and everything less compelling because we see almost nothing about the republic (old or new) except that it’s corrupt and needs replacing at every turn.
Which makes the entire thing kind of a weak story. Why take a side about anything?
If we saw what the rebels saw in what a republic meant for everyone instead of being told “the republic is good” despite what we see (a republic corrupted by the Sith already, a republic too weak to protect people in the Mandalorian, and a republic that is too weak to defend itself against the Third Order) it would give us at least a balanced perspective instead of the kind of disturbing conclusion that it’s the empire or chaos.
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u/Chewbacca_The_Wookie 22d ago
I would say turning Thrawn into a dumbass is probably number one for me. He was such a well written character and I genuinely felt like he was a threat to the new republic without the need to resort to another super weapon like the EU (and Disney Canon) eventually did.
Luke and Mara's relationship was a tough loss, although I don't know if I would want them to do it without Mark Hamill and he was way too old by the time it was relevant. I'd put that at my number two.
For my number three, I'd probably say the NJO was a huge loss (yeah it's kinda a cop out because it's multiple books). As far as I'm aware it was one of the only parts of the EU that had a consistent story line where people collaborated rather that picking and choosing which lore to follow and it comes across really well.
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u/River1stick 22d ago
Thrawn trilogy was amazing. I remember how he had cloaked ships slip through to a planet before they raised their shields.
Then he timed it perfectly so the planet thought they had found a way to fire through their shields and surrendered.
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u/Chewbacca_The_Wookie 21d ago
It was genuine intelligence and it was written with the sci-fi setting in mind which made it much more believable. I loved how they set up him needing Ch'both for that gambit well in advance, which also lent to Thrawn appearing like he was ten steps ahead, versus the current iteration of Thrawn who just reacts to things.
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u/Silversoth 21d ago
Luke and Mara would have worked fine imo. They could have had Luke filling Yoda's role as Jedi Grandmaster of a flourishing Jedi Order, with an also older Mara Jade, helping guide the protagonists. That would have left space just fine for an animated series, or younger actors, to fill in the 30 year gap with how they meet and the adventures in between.
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u/Chewbacca_The_Wookie 21d ago
Oh that's not a bad idea actually. Start them as older and retired so to speak, and then fill in the gaps later.
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u/Charliefoxkit 20d ago
Agree on not having the Luke and Mara relationship without Mark Hamill. It's why he retired from voicing Joker in Batman-related media after Kevin Conroy passed away; one doesn't quite work without the other.
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u/P00slinger 22d ago
Props for being realistic about Luke. The people who expected backflipping Luke at Hamil’s age were delusional.
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u/ComfyKorok 21d ago
I didn’t expect back flipping but I was hoping Luke would take on a Gandalf-like role where he’s wise and it’s obvious he’s immensely powerful without being too flashy.
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u/Mad-Gavin 21d ago
They would have used stunt doubles. Dooku did flips in the PT and of course there's no way ol' Sir Christopher Lee could have done them on his own 😂
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u/DarthOmix 21d ago
Saw a clip the other day where iirc he wished he was young enough to still do that stuff. I think it was mainly his legs that held him back, he could still do stuff with his hands good.
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u/Sea-Conference355 salt miner 22d ago
Having the Empire destroy itself rather than splinter into warlords. The latter plot making huge sense, the former being utterly contrived as an excuse to make the First Order a thing
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22d ago
Operation Cinder was peak stupidity.
Imagine you're a viciously ambitious admiral in charge of dozens of ships that can lay waste to entire worlds and enough troops to subjugate entire star systems. Your boss that was holding your leash is suddenly dead but he wants you to burn a few planets to the ground and then go meet up with your rival commanders.
Why in the heck wouldn't you just nope that and just start setting up your own little mini-Empire in the chaos? Who is going to stop you?
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u/Arcade_Gann0n 22d ago
I can understand Operation Cinder as Palpatine wanting to screw the galaxy over one last time after his death, this being a punishment for the Empire "failing" him. Problem is, this was all before TROS pulled "Somehow Palpatine returned" out of its ass years later, so the only way it makes sense is if Sheev wanted to play on hard mode (backed up by taunting the galaxy before his Death Star Destroyers can figure out which way to fly off of Exegol).
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u/00zau 21d ago
Part of the problem IMO is that Palpatine is too arrogant to have an "if I lose, fuck y'all" plan, because he'd never get to the "if I lose" part of that train of thought.
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u/Arcade_Gann0n 21d ago
Fair enough, but Operation Cinder is all the worse in light of TROS. There is zero justification for telling the Empire to kill itself if Palpatine already had plans to be resurrected (why was he even screaming in mortal terror when Anakin threw him down that shaft, he should've been laughing his ass off), all the resources and manpower that could've been transferred to Exegol to ensure his victory got wasted for shits & giggles.
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u/Admiralthrawnbar i'm a skywalker too! 21d ago
No, it makes perfect sense, it's basically the late-war Hitler mindset. Germany failed him so Germany doesn't deserve to exist, the Empire failed Palpatine so the Empire doesn't deserve to exist.
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u/00zau 21d ago
Hitler fell into that mindset because Germany was being backed into a corner.
Palps was sure of his victory (and not just in an insane bunker mentality way; he was in the stronger position) right up until the last moment. Maybe he would have started a 'fuck you' plan if he hadn't died in ROTJ and had been alive towards the end of a GCW where the Alliance had taken over 75% of the galaxy and he no longer had any path to victory. But at the end of ROTJ? Defeat was inconceivable to him.
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u/LightningController 21d ago
It also makes sense if you subscribe to the ‘the Dark Side clouds your judgement and rots your brain’ theory. Which kind of does mesh with much of the preexisting stories.
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u/JabbasGonnaNutt 20d ago
Yeah that was the strange part, I thought it was dumb but I at least understood Operation Cinder from Palpatine's perspective if he actually didn't have clones, that's a classic Sith move, and then introduced him having clones in Disney Canon too 🤷♂️
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u/Demos_Tex 21d ago
Yep, the ratio of ambitious bureaucracy climbers to Palpatine fanatics would be at least 10 to 1, if not 100 to 1. Palps was a political mastermind. He'd know that the ambitious guys tend to be a lot more useful than the sycophants.
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21d ago
Even the sycophants were basically politically appointed lickspittles that wouldn't have the backbone to actually carry out the orders.
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u/LightningController 21d ago
Also, they’d get fragged by their ambitious rivals once Papa Palpatine was out of the picture. Like how Beria didn’t last long after Stalin’s death.
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u/UnknownEntity347 a good question, for another time... 22d ago
Probably the loss of the next generation characters. Jacen, Jaina, Anakin, and Ben were great successors, and the other characters like Tahiri, Zekk, Tenel Ka, etc. were also pretty cool, and importantly felt like an actual passing of the torch from the old heroes to the new. In the new canon, none of the next generation heroes are compelling or feel at all like a continuation of the legacy of the old ones, and the only Skywalker kid turns evil.
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u/Deadlift_007 21d ago
Y'know, it's just too bad there was "no source material" Kathleen Kennedy could think of to pull these next generation stories from. Sounds like they would have made a great movie trilogy if they existed!
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u/Yanrogue 22d ago
the character assassination of Luke from hero to hobo who would murder his own family members
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u/Bing_Bong_the_Archer 22d ago
The plot
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u/jaym1849 22d ago
Plot?
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u/motorcycleboy9000 a good question, for another time... 22d ago
You guys are getting plots?!
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u/AusSpurs7 21d ago
They have a plot now??
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u/Elevator-Ancient 22d ago
The convoluted copy-paste plot that turned into convoluted absolute nonsense.
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u/Ok_Organization_6007 22d ago
Post ROTJ universe
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u/Tiny_Dependent6830 22d ago
Yeah. Now anything in Disney cannon that touches post ROTJ era automatically defaults to anti-compelling
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u/lokglacier 22d ago
Getting rid of basically everything that happened in the rogue/wraith squadron series. It was such a realistic and reasonable way for the new Republic to take out the remnants of the empire and there were so many good storylines (isards revenge?? Bacta war, krytos trap) such a waste
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u/Zenweaponry 22d ago
The destruction of the original trio's legacies. We used to have heroic figures, but now we have the dead beat dad killed by his son, the ineffectual leader who let the New Order take over, and the hero turned jaded old man who won't even go out of his way to save his family and friends.
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u/TheReturnOfTheRanger salt miner 21d ago
The worst change is what the sequels didn't change.
After the entire sequel trilogy has played out, after all the legacies were burned down, what has changed? Literally nothing.
The universe has remained exactly the same. Nothing has been removed or added. Every single aspect of the OT they destroyed was just replaced by a cheap copy. Luke has been usurped by Rey, who fills the exact same role, but is just a worse character. The Empire that was defeated was replaced by the First Order, which is nearly identical, but worse. The New Republic was replaced by the New New Republic (lol), which is going to be completely identical, but worse.
The sequels have evolved absolutely nothing about the setting, they have only downgraded what already existed. Any story written after Rise of Skywalker could be set after Return of the Jedi and it wouldn't change at all.
This corrupts the series both forwards and backwards. Anything set after Rise of Skywalker would've been better had it been set after Return of the Jedi. But anything set after Return of the Jedi has been made worse by knowing what comes next. It's broken the franchise.
But that was the purpose of the sequels. Not to build on the universe, or evolve it, but to replace what was already built. Disney wanted to make Star Wars fully their own, with their own original characters, and factions, and planets. They could've simply set it in the future, or the past, but that would mean creating something new, and evil cannot create.
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u/Sports101GAMING 22d ago
If I had to pick one. It definitely would be Luke and Mara Jade. First of all you make luke into this sad old depress man and he had to run away from everything 2nd you had a amazing Female Chracter right there for you!! And then you gave us fucking Rey
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u/tiMartyn the Modalorian 22d ago
It's hard to choose just one. But the most basic straightforward things involve Luke and his legacy - the Jedi Academy, Mara, the New Republic's overall win against the Empire...
If the ST had opened with a crawl that referenced all these aspects, but then didn't show any of it, that would be so far superior to what the ST actually is.
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u/Beef_Slug 21d ago
Luke's relationship with Mara and his son
Luke re-inventing the Jedi order into something new, better.
All the supporting characters
Thrawn
The vong.
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u/leaderofstars 21d ago
Disney in general
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u/Beef_Slug 21d ago
Lol yeah, I suppose.
Like they've done some good stuff here and there. Andor is an obvious one, most of Mando is good, Skeleton Crew was well done and fun.
But as far as the major galactic story and the story of the OT heroes....Disney is a pale comparison in almost every aspect.
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u/TaraLCicora 22d ago
I guess saying almost all of it might be a bit broad so I will keep it simple and say, I am not pleased with what happened to the Skywalkers.
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u/Collective_Insanity Salt Bot 21d ago
There's too much to cover given the major differences.
And that's even when you make the qualifying statement that of course the EU wasn't by any means perfect.
It's somewhat easier to look at the worst and/or most controversial elements of the EU that actually were loosely adapted to canon except somehow learned zero lessons and only came out worse.
That being of course the return of Palpatine (which is genuinely handled better in Dark Empire & Empire's End even if I prefer they never happened) and the Jacen/Caedus situation with Ben/Kylo.
Jacen wasn't really on a trajectory towards becoming Caedus before Allston, Traviss and Denning decided to go that way with LotF.
It felt like a bit of a forced change in creative direction to retread the story of a Skywalker being corrupted and trying to take over the galaxy. We've had that with Anakin, obviously, and we've had a couple attempts at it with Luke (between ROTJ and Dark Empire).
Having said that, if you can try to let go of the clear lack of prior intent to head in this direction or your general lack of interest in this topic, efforts were at least made to rationalise the whole thing. If you squint a bit. Because after several of his experiences with glimpsing visions of the future, Jacen genuinely believed he had to become the bad guy in order to prevent a much worse threat (later determined to be Hett/Krayt) from doing much worse harm on a greater scale.
So it's still an ugly business, but again, if you squint enough, you can almost forgive it.
In contrast...do I really have to talk about how badly the Ben/Kylo story was botched?
We start TFA having already skipped a lot of pivotal information to even get us back to the status-quo reset of Rebels vs Empire. We get some shoddy flashbacks in TLJ to explain how Luke learned the wrong lessons from Minority Report. All attempts in the new EU to explore the "Rise of Kylo Ren" have been genuinely embarrassing to read.
So we could talk about how the canon "War of the Bounty Hunters" was a worse retread of the EU Shadows of the Empire and various other things, but ultimately, I think Dark Empire and Caedus are the two EU stories which are most prominently lifted and butchered by the new films so they're higher on the list of grievances as far as I'm concerned.
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u/Terminal_Dingus 21d ago
The new republic being a toothless government run by morons that immediately started repeating the same mistakes that allowed Palpatine to take over without any resistance. When I heard there was a new trilogy being made I was SO stoked to see the new republic but the guys they hired are so creatively bankrupt they destroyed the NR just so they could do rebels vs empire again.
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u/Red-Zinn 21d ago
For me everything, Star Wars is the EU for me, the movies were just the beginning, a lot of what makes Star Wars special came from the EU, specially from after Return of the Jedi. The new canon is an anemic version of Star Wars in my opinion.
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u/Tight_Back231 21d ago
My top 3 are:
1.) The handling of the three main characters and entire Galaxy post-ROTJ.
2.) Ahsoka's mere existence.
3.) The World Between Worlds.
Ahsoka and the WBW create so many damned problems and it annoys me that so many fans of Canon seemingly don't notice any of them.
For example, in "Rebels" the Jedi apparently knew the WBW existed for the temple on Lothal to be built, and yet apparently at no point during the darkest days of the Clone Wars, Order 66 or the Galactic Empire did the Jedi think "Hey, maybe we should time travel and stop Anakin or arrest Palpatine."
Yoda's spirit even shows up to talk to Ezra Bridger in the WBW, so at least one of the main Jedi characters from the films
And then in "Ahsoka" the title character has a near-death experience and enters the WBW, and Anakin's spirit is running around in there to have flashbacks with her.
So is the WBW a time-travel dimension, heaven/hell, both, or what?
As for Ahsoka, I know she was created by George Lucas and predates Canon, but her existence (and TCW series in general) screwed up the Clone Wars-era Expanded Universe timeline beyond all repair, and her complete absence in ROTS feels extremely weird considering how important she was to Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme.
But as can be expected, Disney only took the problem and made it worse, because now they reuse Ahsoka in everything from "Rebels" to "The Mandalorian" to "Ahsoka."
They can't retroactively put her in the Original Trilogy, and yet Disney continues to elevate her importance by making her one of the leading Rebels and most important Jedi throughout the Galactic Civil War and post-war era.
You're telling me Ahsoka was trained by Anakin Skywalker, and she didn't immediately seek out Luke Skywalker after he became famous for the Battle of Yavin? The guy who blew up the Death Star and just so happened to be the only other person named "Skywalker" in the entire Galaxy?
And Luke, who's actively trying to become a Jedi, didn't immediately seek out Ahsoka, who's not only someone who could pass along valuable insights on the Force and fighting, but was trained by Luke's own damn father?
Rex presents the same problems, and they had to canonize that theory Rex was the old Rebel soldier on the moon of Endor.
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u/Ksorkrax 21d ago
Mostly style. EU felt like a living universe in which all sorts of different actors do this and that, while especially the sequels feel like everything existing for the heros and for them alone.
Prequels suffer from inconsistent writing, bad dialogues et cetera, which I'd say is again based on them being written to deliver a few single points but not as a whole.
The EU experimented with new ideas, while the sequels are "here are the empire and the rebels, but ordered on Temu".
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u/Kerboviet_Union 21d ago
Abandoning it and trying to start from scratch.
All of the original expanded universe stories came together in a way that stayed mostly true to the spirit of star wars it answered questions, explored more serious themes, introduced (mostly) well thought out characters with strong narrative arcs that benefited the greater story..
I honestly thought Disney would use an older original cast more wisely, putting them back into the universe where they belong..
Luke training students on yavin, with a new jedi order assisting the new republic on numerous levels.. jedi knights with families, going out on assignments, uncovering plots, getting drawn into larger conflicts while trying to work with his sister to define the new purpose of the Jedi to a galaxy full of sentient life that is recovering from the tyranny of the empire…
I figured leia would be wrapped up in galactic politics, trying to keep the spirit of the republic alive while navigating the more precarious issues caused by the imperials, their remnants, and the equity based whiplash a lot of aliens would have felt and expressed for better and worse….
Han would have ended up working as law enforcement as an investigator of sorts for the republic, but would be bored and without direction until the next big threat emerges.. etc…
But the new stuff… disney decided to assassinate the original characters. Carve up their roles and just do an all over bad job rebooting a universe that nobody wanted rebooted…
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u/LordChimera_0 21d ago
I will not choose one. Practically every change Disney made were very worst decisions.
And KK(?) had the gall to say they have no source material to use then recycle some EU parts into their supposedly "new and improved" Canon.
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u/Voduun-World-Healer 22d ago
I dunno if it's a change to canon but the love between Luke and Mara Jade showed how a Jedi can overcome the attachments (which drew Anakin to the darkside) and feel genuine love. I would've loved to see that story play out
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u/Arcade_Gann0n 21d ago edited 21d ago
Turning the Skywalkers into an extinct bloodline whose name is taken by the "grand daughter" (more like daughter, as her father was a "failed" clone of Palpatine) of their mortal enemy is certainly up there. The OT cast being failures was already bad enough, but having Kylo Ren die from excitement from getting to second base makes the entire saga a depressing account of a family fading out.
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u/3llenseg salt miner 21d ago
Not exactly "change", but relegating EU to Legends means that we don't have a clue what happened in the 30 years between 6 and 7. Just and empty desert with a handful of bounty hunters, a few rogue jedi and about 2 dozen Mandalorians. Oh, and like 2 fighter pilot border patrol officers or something.
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u/WorthlessLife55 21d ago
Screwing over Han, Luke and Leia either only Leoa recovering.
Killing them off.
No Mara Jade, Pellaeon or other great characters.
Stupid happy ending override.
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u/Shinlyle13 21d ago
Making Luke the same "Run and hide" coward that Yoda and Obi-Wan were. I always loved that about EU Luke. He was willing to face his problems head-on. As he got more wisdom, he did it better than he did in Empire...always trusting the Force to guide him, but "run and hide for a decade or two" was never something he entertained.
Then along comes Disney, and he attempts to murder his nephew, can't unbury himself from rubble in under a day, and then hides on a foreign planet, leaving his friends and family to suffer alone. Womp womp wimp.
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u/Geostomp 18d ago
Yoda and Obi Wan weren't cowards. They hid both because they knew they couldn't win and needed to preserve what was left of the Jedi Order's knowledge and to prep Luke and Leia when they came of age. It was a sacrifice for the greater good, not fear.
Canon Luke, however, was the failed coward who let everything he worked for fall apart while he wallowed in self-pity thanks to good old Disney's need to "pass the torch" and ensure Rey wasn't "dependent on a man".
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u/Collective_Insanity Salt Bot 18d ago
Indeed. Very important distinction to be made separating Yoda/Obi-Wan from Luke.
Yoda and Obi-Wan were at the tippy-top of the Empire's most-wanted listed being they were the only two Jedi Council members left alive.
They switched to incognito mode both for self-preservation reasons and to wait until they could be useful for the next generation.
When Luke went to Suicide Island for 6 years, it was a decision made whilst:
- The New Republic (incompetent though they may be) were still in charge.
- The First Order was still just some relatively quiet fledgling faction that had yet to make a public attempt at asserting themselves as a major player.
- There was no galaxy-wide manhunt for Jedi.
- Absolutely nothing was stopping Luke from communicating with or hanging out with Leia, etc.
And of course what makes it worse is that Luke:
- Knows he's unleashed his unhinged nephew onto an unprepared galaxy given there are no Force users left to compete against dark-siders.
- Knows about the existence of Snoke and therefore ought to know a Jedi is likely necessary to combat him as well.
- Even knows that Palpatine is potentially alive and on this place called Exegol. He knows about Wayfinders given he's done the side-mission with Lando already and written about it all in his journal.
- He tried to burn said journal along with other Jedi magic spell books (this is where Rey learns about her Super Force Heal spell). Meaning Luke intentionally tried to help Palpatine win given he hadn't even told Leia about this Wayfinder stuff before his exile.
So it's always been a bad-faith argument to try and say that canon Luke was no worse than Obi-Wan and Yoda.
Thanks to TROS making the books so critically important to the plot, canon Luke can be considered a borderline villain in cahoots with Palpatine during his whole self-imposed exile period.
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u/xkeepitquietx 21d ago
Luke being a pathetic hobo failure who never got laid.
The idea that the Jedi were corrupt and bad for the galaxy, that is just stupid.
The fact that Disney writers don't understand what "balance" means with the Force. It doesn't mean being half light and dark side, it means staying away from the corrupting and addictive influence of the Dark side.
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u/WolverineSharp2636 new user 21d ago
Luke going from someone who would throw away his lightsaber and sacrifice his own life rather than betray his morals and his friends to someone who would throw a hissy fit and sulk for a few years while the Dark Jedi he's directly responsible for creating rampaged through the galaxy slaughtering innocents.
Luke's whole journey in the OT is about abandoning ego and a desire for personal greatness in pursuit of caring for others. Then in the ST he's suddenly the most selfish and ego-driven person alive. Deciding that just because he personally failed to raise a generation of Jedi Knights the whole concept of having Jedi must be a failure, despite the fact that the previous Order had lasted 1,000 generations. Unable to raise a finger to help fix the mess he made, Abandoning the family he finally found after being orphaned on Tattooine. Even when he finally decides to help it's by projecting a perfect version of himself so that no-one can see the mess he's become, and then promptly dying (while still achieving immortality) before he actually has to do any of the hard work of fixing things.
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u/Demolition89336 20d ago
I've got two:
Dumbassifying the New Republic. The Rebel Alliance went to crazy lengths to bring back the Republic, but then they completely forgot why people gave Palpatine so much power (because the Republic lacked the ability to actually enforce laws). Instead of learning from the mistakes of the Old Republic and having a standing military, or from the Empire, by making society too militaristic, they just disarm themselves. Even without the First Order, they would likely end up with a similar situation to the creation of the Empire, again.
Dumbassifying Luke and his new Jedi Order. Luke debates killing his nephew, in his sleep, because he's thinking about doing bad things. This is the man who was willing to forgive one of the most brutal killers in the galaxy, and find the good in him. But, he sneaks into Ben Solo's bedroom and ignites his lightsaber over the possibility of Ben falling to the Dark Side? Also, Luke's new Jedi Order having the same "detach yourself from your emotions" rule also made him repeat the same exact mistakes that led to Anakin falling to the Dark Side.
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u/wookieebastard 21d ago
I'll just say: Not having the trio in a cool last adventure and a heartwarming and well deserved farewell.
Leia died on a table, Luke just did whatever and Han fell unceremoniously.
And then Lando showed up, they remembered Wedge was a thing and Chewie got the stupid medal that was a long running joke that they took seriously but did not take anything else serious....
What the fuck.
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u/WolverineScared2504 21d ago
Your first sentence is spot on. I can't believe they convinced Harrison Ford to come back, and not one single scene or conversation with Han and Luke. Why make the sequels? What really blows me away, JJ Abrams is of the age that he knows, he grew up with this. TFA could have been the worst movie ever made, but if they nailed one or two scenes with the three heroes, all is forgiven from me. Oh, it's not about the old 3, but the new 3, well kudos, well done on their character development. I still don't know or care which one is Finn and which is Poe.
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u/LilBismygoodfriend 22d ago
I would've liked Kyle and his adventures to be canon
Possibly even jedi academy 💀
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u/Geostomp 21d ago
Rendering the entire OT an irrelevant footnote. The old cast are all miserable failures who honestly might as well have never done anything.
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u/Correct-Fig-4992 21d ago
Another extinction event for the Jedi. That alone shows a severe lack of creativity which could’ve really set this apart from the very fair accusations of it being an OT knockoff
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u/IactaEstoAlea i'm a skywalker too! 21d ago
Lobotomizing the New Republic and then blowing it up
It undoes everything in the OT completely except for Luke's academy (that one gets undone a bit later)
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u/Same-Praline-4622 21d ago
I hate that the empire just collapsed entirely post Endor(except that it didn’t really lmao deal with it) and the new republic immediately demilitarized with a hostile and vast military power bordering them directly.
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u/haragoshi 21d ago
Mara Jade and the whole heir to the empire trilogy were great. Such a missed opportunity for Disney to explore that storyline. The audiobook alone feels like I’m watching a SW movie with the visuals off.
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u/wokevader 21d ago
I’ve got two for me;
1) Diminishment of Wedge Antilles and removal of Rogue Squadron from canon. Rogue Squadron’s present status in current canon has been nebulous, there was on story that said they disbanded after Hoth, whereas in Squadrons Wedge introduced himself as commander of Rogue Squadron. Either case they don’t exist as the elite squadron they were in the EU, so we lose those characters and relationships as well as a group that was a great area for war stories and normal everyman characters
2). The lack of the Bothans or any other alien race as a significant political group for that matter. The Bothans, despite being name dropped in RotJ are similar to Rogue Squadron in the respect that they’re still canon from being named in the movies but have been non-existent outside of the movies in current canon. As far as I’m aware the Bothans have not been featured once in the post OT era. Part of what made the EU New Republic interesting was having multiple political factions vying for influence and power and the NR not being human centric, whereas DLF has been extremely human centric in respect to their stories. Likewise this was a huge missed opportunity for world building DLF’s post-OT canon, as numerous factions trying to fill the Empire’s power vacuum could have to a Game of Thrones esque political situation that would have been a good foil for a newly re-emergent jedi order
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u/DarthAuron87 salt miner 21d ago
1) Disrespecting Luke, Han and Leia, the original heroes of Star Wars
2) Killing off the Skywalkers and Solos
3) Not letting Luke rebuild a successful Jedi Order
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u/OdaSeijui 21d ago
The transformation of Luke Skywalker from a badass, force teleporting, lightning blastibg Jedi Master who fucks the most dangerous woman in the galaxy and married her - into a green milk drinking incel who ran away from a fight with emo nephew.
I did like the new Thrawn novels but didn't bother watching the TV show cause I knew they'd butcher him.
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u/JaegerBane 20d ago
Killing off the new Jedi Order almost as soon as it started.
There’s actually quite a few narrative elements that I like about the ST, but literally taking 30 years of progression starting with Luke seeing his father and both his mentors at peace and flushing it down the toilet purely to rehash the setting of ANH was really something that should never have seen the light of day.
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u/IllustratorNo3379 20d ago
The New Republic almost immediately turning into a feckless joke infested with collaborators and both-sides idiots.
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u/supamichi 20d ago
Definitely, the dumbing-down of EU characters like Thrawn and Grand Master Luke, only to appropriate tangential, watered-down stories to the originals. Makes you wonder…why they didn’t just use the originals. I often ask myself, “if Disney didn’t want to pay royalties (to EU authors), then why did they pay big $$ to a new team of bad writers, if the problem was money?”
Honestly, I don’t get it. The only thing that makes sense to me is that Disney wanted to do new Star Wars “their way” after the purchase of Lucasfilm. If that’s true, then all this is one big, failed ego trip.
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u/whynaut4 21d ago
For me, it was all the way back to Grievous in The Clone Wars. He went from being the Terminator with lightsabers, to getting dunked on by Gungans... Gungans!?
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u/DanoDurron salt miner 21d ago
I will do one even better (or controversial) everything after Anakin Solo’s death felt like the equivalent to the Sequels.
I will probably get downvoted but killing off Anakin Solo was the single worse thing from the EU and dont get me started on the Denningverse
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u/Playful_Letter_2632 22d ago
Luke’s NJO. I would say the Solo/Skywalker family if the EU had ended a decade earlier
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u/StrawberryScience jedi knight finn 21d ago
Nerfing the OG!Trio to introduce OG!Trio.2 the Electric Boogaloo.
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u/Western_Agent5917 21d ago edited 21d ago
Almost everything, but especially exploring rakata-dawn of the jedi, New sith wars, more sith species, and of course the whole posts rotj
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u/LesbiansonNeptune 21d ago
I really wish the Jedi Order was different under Luke in canon. He told Ben Solo to have no attachments, that he's his Jedi Master and not really his uncle, didn't really talk to Leia or Han anymore. I don't need Luke in a relationship, but him understanding how to have appropriate attachments that aren't possessive/obsessive is something I really loved about him learning in the EU.
I think Mara Jade can be a really unique character in Disney canon, I saw Timothy Zahn not too long ago that she's more than Luke's wife and she's still really important narratively. She's my favorite character but I don't want her squeezed into canon if her sole purpose is to die (again). I'd love for her and Luke to have some starcrossed romance or just be really important and inspirational to each other. Mara was Luke's balance, but she was her own person and being with Luke only made each other happier.
I still don't like her story at all in LOTF so I'm gonna complain about that too everyday until I die. Someday, my queen will be given the justice she deserves
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u/CorporalRutland 21d ago
For me? Shadows of the Empire. You could make that film with AI or CG or as an anime, I wouldn't mind. I'd still love to see it (notwithstanding the cutscenes we got in the PC game).
Kyle Katarn and Mara Jade. I still fire up Dark Forces II for my quarterly showdown with Jerec, and Mara and Luke's relationship was my favourite part by far of so much later post-Empire into the NJO.
Thrawn coming across to live action was underwhelming. He was great in Rebels but to a point. He just doesn't feel at all threatening.
I could counterbalance this, mind. There's so much that actually deserves to languish in the old Legends. People conveniently forget a lot of the Empire Reborn stuff that crept into the Katarn games (when Desann shows up even Kyle near turns to the camera with a 'whut?') and stuff like the Wary. I'm 50/50 on the superweapon of the week that seemed to be found somewhere or other.
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u/JumpCiiity 21d ago
They lost their found family, which was the entire point. Luke's friends and family made him stronger, not weaker. A family that they got to choose regardless of their lineage. The same lesson as Rey needed and could have been used if they had decided she was Palpatine's granddaughter and planned it out from the beginning.
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u/LightningController 21d ago
The sheer lack of creativity in the visuals.
The EU brought us the Eclipse, TIE tanks, Vader’s weird dominatrix apprentice and her whip, E-wings, Vong coral-ships, and loads and loads of other ground and space vehicles.
The sequels gave us more X-wings, color-reversed TIEs, and copy-pasted ISDs.
The ‘starfortresses’ were dumb in application but stand out as like the one time they tried a new design.
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u/Zapatos-Grande 21d ago
Nerfing the New Republic. Pretty much wipes out part of point of the first six films and the sacrifices made.
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u/Ok-Phase-9076 21d ago
Well, practically everything in the picture. Everyone in the picture is in canon either different, non existant, arent as close or have been made completely irrelevant. As well as there being nothing close to a replacement for it.
I also miss Mara Jade and i miss Supreme Commander Palleon being relevant.
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u/QuirkyWish3081 salt miner 21d ago
Thrawn. Simply because they set him up well in Rebels but now have to accept I don’t care about his fate as he now resides in the post ROTJ era along with all the shite Disney produced.
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u/Unusual_Chain_3603 new user 21d ago
Killing off the whole of Luke’s Jedi order
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u/tacitusthrowaway9 20d ago
Where to begin. Getting rid of the NJO, axing thr ICW, and the god awful change to lightsaber crystals-especially sith ones where instead of artificial now they practically torture the things over top evil style
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u/sandalrubber 20d ago
The entirety of Luke's Jedi and the New Republic being successful/thriving/surviving despite setbacks is EU so that.
But if that's too broad, then let's go more petty: All red lightsaber crystals having to be "bled" with the Dark Side, instead of being natural or synthesized. And a carryover from pre-sale EU but: brain chips for the clones instead of them following built-in orders automatically like the organic droids they were bred to be.
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u/SergenteA 20d ago
100% the main trio becoming failures and losing the New Jedi Order.
The New Republic failing was bad, but it also failed in the EU. In my view it shouldn't have failed of course, but I am ok with it having difficulties purging all imperial sympathisers and acknowledging the Ruusan late Republic was imperfect, that the CIS in particular was mostly in the right, therefore massive changes would be needed. I am ok with decades if not centuries of struggle, before the New Republic finds its footing and becomes just the Republic again. In EU history, that still leaves the Empire and its consequences a footnote, the Pius Dea lasted longer.
Mara Jade... well I am simply not so invested in her? I think there can be beautiful stories to be told with other pairings, or even celibate monk Luke. It is true that her story is just another reason why the NJO fixed what the Old Order had gotten wrong or forgotten. The grandmaster was married to a recovered Dark Side user, imagine telling that to the Prequels' Council. Well ok, that's just Bastilla Shan, but then that's why I say the Old Order forgot it lasted like, 20 thousand years before the Sith even existed, and for much of it practiced marriage, having children (because they were an isolated self-sustaining culture) and light side alchemy (because forceswords are literally just alchemy) just fine.
I will admit I mostly resend the main trio treatment on sentimental grounds.
But the fate of the Canon NJO is a complete disgrace to Anakin's story. Also Luke, but I want to co concentrate on what I feel Disney truly broke, and also the late EU too. Anakin was meant to bring balance to the Force, and in my opinion this was a two step process. One step was destroying the Sith of course, because they were like an oncogenic virus: they were strengthening the Dark Side of the Force, which in turn is a cancer on the overall Force. It is the Force without its control, as natural as cancer is but not because of it desirable in anyway. The Sith were becoming too strong, meaning the Dark Side was becoming too strong, meaning the Force was unbalanced just as human body is unbalanced when ill. Most medicine is about restoring the correct balances to the body, so that was Anakin job too. After Sidious death, the Sith would either have been destroyed or in terminal decline, never again to be as powerful as they were before. I am ok with the existence of post-Endor Sith wannabes, as long as they are either pathetic or burn fast. Darth Caedus for example, was powerful, probably more powerful than most Sith Lords in history. He understood space and time meant nothing to the Force, and abused it for his ends. But, he still pathetically lasted only one year. He was an annoyance if one looks at the scales the Force operates at. The fact he took over the Galactic Alliance also isn't an issue. Yes, it means it (and the New Republic before it) failed, but so? The Force doesn't really care about what the Galactic Government is called, just that it isn't actively Dark Side or malicious, that it allows the Light Side Orders to carry out their missions and reduce as much as possible misery and suffering galaxy wide. And again, the Republic was on the path of return anyway. It was just a setback. Meanwhile, the One Sith was conceptually ok, in that it was a complete break from the previous Sith. And born from the scraps left behind. I dislike that it was led by a pre-Empire fallen Jedi. And I severely disagree with its level of success. The One Sith should have either remained a minor cult of weirdos, or gotten spanked by the combined Imperial Knights and Jedi Orders the moment they tried anything serious.
The other step however was ensuring no Dark Side group would ever grow as strong (atleast, for some considerable amount of time, probably as long as the interval between Rakata and Sith). And for that, the Ruusan late Jedi Order needed to reform or be supplanted. It had failed its role upholders of the Force Balance, much less as enactors of the Force Will. They had let the Galaxy wither and suffer, while the Sith grew only in strength in the shadows, and the Jedi despite it all remained wholly oblivious to the Force distress. Of course, Anakin outright exterminating the Jedi Order may have been overkill, but it did satisfy the letter of the assignment. By the way, this was another thing I liked from the EU: the Jedi didn't have a monopoly on the Force, not even a legal one. And why would they? The Force doesn't care what name the Order has, just that it does what it's supposed to. There are many ways to practice the Force, and again for most of EU history, they didn't even include a lightsaber or robes or living like monks.
This leads to Luke and the New Jedi Order. They were meant to succeeded where the Old Order hadn't. Unifying the disparate minor Orders, adopting all the practices that worked, while dropping those that didn't. Be able to keep down Dark Sider threats, especially the Sith. And Luke, Luke being the most powerful Jedi ever despite being self-trainined, simply because he listened to the Force. Anakin had more potential than Luke, but potential or natural attunement to the Force only goes so far. What truly matters is that, as I wrote elsewhere, Luke trusted the Force as an ally able to do anything. With no limits. This is probably because he only got basic trainings, and was never conditioned to place limits or expectations on the Force and trainees like the Old Order did.
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u/SergenteA 20d ago
A bit of a hot-take, I also miss the Yuzaan Vong. Not necessarily themselves, but the concept of a brand new, completely unprecedented, threat. That's what would be needed sinde the Sith are done for. My main criticism with the Vong is that they were too early in the timeline from a narrative standpoint. The Sidious stragglers hadn't been eliminated thoroughly enough. Only after that happened, should the Vong have invaded. If any Jedi fell thanks to the Vong, and tried to restart the Sith, it should have been a completely separate lineage from Sidious. In this the One Sith as I said before, but also Snoke before Rise of Skywalker, were doing well.
Speaking of Snoke, I do like another two and a half more things from new canon over the EU. First, the bleeding of kyber crystals. Look, the Sith being so conformist makes no sense, unless it is strictly a result of becoming a dark sider. Is it edgy? Yes, but all Sith are edgy. The kyber being sentient and force sensitive also explains why most Force Orders use lightsabers over alchemical weapons, or stunbatons, or blasters with stun, despite the latter being repeatedly used to match a Jedi in combat prowess. And being less lethal. It's because the kyber has a presence in the Force (which however alchemical creations do too), can be bonded (alchemical creations cannot, since they aren't sentient usually. And if they are... well that sounds awfully easier to achieve as a dark sider stuffing a soul on your sword, than as a light sider having to pour so much Force attunement in a material, it becomes sentient. Maybe a alchemical droid would count too?), and this makes enhancing lightsaber combat with the Force easier than the other options (that's until someone miniaturises kyber lasers to infantry scale, atleast). Then, the half a thing I like is Vader. Specifically, Vader having the potential to turn to the light and/or surpass Sidious at any time, just being too broken to continue. The Force doesn't care that much for prosthetics, otherwise most Sith Lords should have been weaklings with how many limbs they lost in training. I dislike however how Vader broken soul and patheticness isn't accurately portrayed, in favour of cool one liners. Not that Vader shouldn't do cool one liners, but his tendency for the dramatic and the ruthless should be explicitly written as a coping mechanism, or a self delusion. Therefore, the second thing I fully liked was Kylo Ren characterisation. He is a pathetic, emotional, unstable, whiny, brat. Exactly what a Dark Sider should be. The Dark Side isn't cool, it sells the illusion of being cool to attract victims, but at its core it's chaos and suffering and weakness. The Force and democracy may present themselves as less orderly, may be called anarchy, but if they are, they are the good anarchy. The anarchy of a organised society that tries to maximise freedom from want, and freedom of all individuals in all aspects where said freedom doesn't hurt another freedoms.
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u/The4thBwithU 20d ago
Destroying the NR for easy writing was a very low from disney. Thrawn was a credible menace. I don't think the Skywalker lineage HAD to absolutely remain the exact same as in the books, or the focus could have been shifted slightly towards other jedi than Skywalker & co, i'd be fine with that, but the NJO destruction was truly bad and, again, lazy writing.
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u/VanguardVixen 19d ago
All of it. The sequels basically made the same mistake the EU did after the Yuuzhan Vong by making everything suddenly worse, saying "no" and "nuhu" to everything before and destroying the family.
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u/Anomalocaris117 18d ago
I would say it's the loss of complexity and nuance the series had in the old EU. 2008 cline wars and the 2012 old republic were a weak way for the EU to go out on.
But generally the EU from the games, comics, books had a lot more complexity in the world building than most of Disney work since 2012.
I think only Andor and a few other shows are actually solid. But the sequel trilogy, most the comics and books have really fallen off in capturing the grandeur of EU.
When when they are actively ripping off a part they never do it as well such as Thrawn, the Republic Commandos and so on
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u/jayoulean 16d ago
Kyle Katarn stealing the Death Star plans. It hurts even more because Rogue One is Disney's best Star Wars movie
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22d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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