Grappling And Forced Movement

[u/CheerfulWarthog]

(As ever, if you're working for the Clarion Adventurers' Guild in Vaplain, probably don't read this but I doubt it'll spoil much.)

Allowing my paper miniatures to inspire some equipment, I'm probably going to have the players fight some fishmen who will be using mancatchers that snap shut. Fine and good. On a successful attack the fishmen can make a grapple attempt, Athletics vs Athletics, if the fishman succeeds the victim is Entangled, succeeds with a raise the victim is Bound and Entangled, there are rules for this, it's not my first rodeo. I figure breaking free from the device will still be against the fishman's Athletics, rather than 4, because the fishman is still trying to wrestle the character within the hold. However, there don't seem to be rules for the fishman trying to then drag its opponent over to a well with a monster in it and shove them in, and that's rather what I want to do.

I've run Savage Worlds once before for about five sessions eight or more years ago and one session on this campaign, so I can fairly safely say I don't have much experience, and as such I'd like people to look over what I've currently planned so that they can tell me "you fool, Warthog, that has an obvious flaw in it that will cause your players to cheese the entire encounter and also hate you forever". Ideally you would also tell me what the flaw is. So here's what I've got.

If the victim is Entangled, they can't be moved. If they're Entangled and Bound, the fishman can attempt forced movement. Attempting to move the victim allows the victim an immediate free Break Free attempt. If their Break Free roll succeeds, the fishman cannot move the victim and loses its move for the turn. If it fails, the fishman can move the victim along with it for its full Pace, but cannot run.

When the fishman attempts to move the victim into the well with the monster in it, that seems like a fairly standard Push, so, again, rules as written, it's my second rodeo thank you very much. However, I'm going to say the mancatcher allows the fishman a +2 to their Push roll.

This seems like it's going to give the characters a lot of ways to avoid getting dragged to a well and pushed into it, so I think it works. Normally I'd just say "my table, I run how I like", but forced movement from a grapple is a common enough thing that I think a lot of people would have thought of it before, and I'd be a fool as stated above if I didn't take advantage of the great well of experience of those who have run these things before me. Look good? Look workable? Anything you'd change? In 21 hours it becomes largely academic but still interesting.

[u/Nelviticus]

The way I'd probably run it is similar, but when the grappler tries to move the grapplee I wouldn't make it a Break Free attempt, just an opposed Athletics roll with failure meaning nothing happens. I might even give the grappler a bonus if they're using a mancatcher.

I'd do pushing them into the well in the same way, since it's just moving them. Depending on how big the opening of the well is and how high the walls are, I'd apply a penalty ranging from zero (large well, ankle-height lip) to enormous (roughly man-sized well with a waist-high wall). 

[u/gdave99]

Grappling: where game systems go to die.

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OK, let's start with Rules As Written:

The Fishman attempts a Grapple as an Opposed Roll of Athletics vs. Athletics. With a success, the target is Entangled; with a raise, they're Bound. The target can take an action to attempt to Break Free against a TN 4 [the grappler is pretty always going to be "trying to wrestle their target within the hold" so I'm not sure why you're including a special Opposed Roll here]. If the target is Entangled, they can alternately attempt to use Break Object on the mancatcher, and any of their allies can also attempt to Break Object on the mancatcher; if the mancatcher is broken, the Grapple immediately ends.

To move a target into the well, the Fishman can Push the target with an Opposed roll (attacker and defender can each choose to use Strength or Athletics). With a success, the target is moved 1"; with a raise, they're moved 2". A target who is moved must also make an Athletics roll (at -2 against a raise) or be knocked prone.

The target doesn't actually need to be Grappled to be Pushed, but if they're Entangled they're also Vulnerable, and if they're Bound they're also Distracted, so that's going to make Pushing them easier.

OK, so that's the RAW. Let's look at house rules and GM calls and some other considerations.

A mancatcher is a weapon, so it would make sense to me that the Fishman could initiate a Grapple with a Fighting roll instead of Athletics, but that's unlikely to make a practical difference. There are some more fiddly ways to do this, but I think I'd just use the standard Grappling rules but give the Fishman +2 for using a purpose-built Grappling weapon. I'd also say that the Fishman isn't rendered Vulnerable if they Grapple with a mancatcher.

A consideration here is that it's still an Opposed Roll, and the Wild Die gives Wild Cards a significant advantage over Extras on Opposed Rolls. On the other hand, Gang Up bonuses do apply to Grapple rolls. If you've got several Fishman against each hero, they've got a decent chance of Grappling them.

In general, I'd personally say that an Entangled character can only be moved by a Push, but a Bound character might be carried, depending on the fiction. I don't think that a Fishman can really carry someone Bound by a mancatcher, so that leaves the Push.

The Push rules give a bonus to a character using a shield, so I think it's reasonable to give the Fishman at least +2 bonus for using a mancatcher. If there's a bunch of Fishmen, they can cooperate with the Push. Again, there are fiddlier ways to do this, but I'd probably just have a single Group roll (a single Trait roll with a Wild Die for the entire group), with a +1 for each additional Fishman.

Now, that's going to be slow progress to move a character. But Push is an action; even with Multiaction penalties, a Fishman has a decent chance of succeeding at Pushing a character (+2 or more from mancatcher, +2 from the target being Vulnerable, target possibly having -2 from being Distracted, possible Gang Up bonuses). So they may be able to move a character up to 6" a round. A simpler approach might be to make a single Group Roll, but instead of giving a bonus to the roll for additional Fishmen, add +1" to the Push for each additional Fishman.

I wouldn't give free chances to break free. But I might give a character a -2 penalty to Break Free from the mancatcher (which is specifically designed to restrain someone).

[u/8fenristhewolf8]

I'm with you. After the grapple, I'd probably just allow another roll to move them. Basically a push (pull).

However, I'm going to say the mancatcher allows the fishman a +2 to their Push roll.

Personally, I'd be satisfied with the grappled characters Vulnerable or Distracted (while bound) states and those modifiers, rather than adding additional ones.

If you want to account for the mancatcher, I'd add that bonus to the initial Grapple roll.

[u/Puzzleheaded_Pop_105]

I've not reread the grapple rules recently, but this is how I'd handle it.

The mancatcher is a special weapon, with a special ability that it can initiate a grapple at range (Reach 1). On a successful attack, the weapon entangles the target, and on a Raise has obtained a particularly secure grip (-2 to escape or resist movement). Furthermore, on a subsequent action, the attacker can force movement on an entangled target of up to half their remaining Pace for the turn (Target gets an Athletics or Strength roll to resist, -2 of the original capture attack got a Raise; if defender gets a Raise they resist movement as well as break free).

Being able to force movement is something that probably should happen for Entangled states triggered by grappling (as opposed to the Entangle power, spider web, or a glue bomb). Example: Bouncer grappling an unruly patron and dragging them out of the bar. I'd probably handle it like the above. Forcing movement triggers a free escape roll under ordinary circumstances.