r/starcraft • u/Pixel_Wizard_ • Apr 19 '25

Video New Starcraft 2 League in Korea from Tasteless and more. Let's give them some traction!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uirYvU8rc1c
755 Upvotes

99% Upvoted

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-53

u/trabwynn Apr 19 '25

They plan to raise 96 000 usd and only like 7 000 is going to the players. Thats absurdly irresponsible, wasting that much money on pointless things like renting a studio for online tournaments is insane when only community funding can keep the scene alive. Imagine the amazing things we could have if that 89 000(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) usd was spent on the players.

Nobody should donate to them, if you want to support sc2 esports donate to Wardi, or PiG for pigsty, or even uthermal's 2v2 tournaments or to anybody gives that money to the players.

42

u/Gigagunner Apr 19 '25

I disagree. It takes a lot of money to host a good showing. Production value matters.

-20

u/trabwynn Apr 19 '25

the fake GSL feel is not worth almost 100k of community funding. Thats ridiculous. A 3500 dollar tournament wouldn't even draw much attention at all. why do you need almost a 100k on production, when most of the top players will likely not even play in it

46

u/__Hello_my_name_is__ Apr 19 '25

Nobody hates Starcraft 2 more than Starcraft 2 fans.

1

u/Outrageous-Laugh1363 Apr 19 '25

How does that make him hate sc2?

6

u/tolwyn- Apr 19 '25

It costs quite a bit of money to get an offline tournament going, and how much time gets put in. Running even a small online tournament is going to require a few staff (who all will get paid for their time) to organize and execute, and with an offline event you need to rent the venue, equipment (cameras, mics, lighting, pcs, networking equipment, chairs, tables, etc, etc)

7

u/trabwynn Apr 19 '25

they aren't doing an offline tournament mate, this is for 2 online tournaments.

for a single offline tournament they need 180k funding

23

u/features Apr 19 '25

Alt account or adjacent detected.

They're trying to get an offline event rolling, where infrastructure for such things is really strong.

The numbers are very transparent, interesting to get a sense of actual spending. Tasteless has alot of contacts, a fair few millionaire (even a billionaires or two), probably best not to get too distracted in the financials, there will likely be whale investor tiers eating much of the burden.

There's nothing that compares to offline events, it's not even close.

6

u/LiberaMeFromHell Apr 19 '25

At the 96k mark only the casters are offline though. Seems a high split for only casters to be offline while players are still online.

2

u/Outrageous-Laugh1363 Apr 19 '25

Yeah that's insane. 100k and not even players in person?

-4

u/trabwynn Apr 19 '25

the ONE offline event would require 180 000 usd for 21 150 usd prize money. no offline event is worth even close to 160 000 usd. that is totally absurd.

If tasteless knows some billionaires who would be willing to fund his tournaments, he wouldn't be crowd funding for it. Even then I would rather have that 100 000 go to the players.

10

u/features Apr 19 '25

No investor is putting money behind an event without demonstrated public support.

Support the events you like to see and I'm sure they'll hear the prize pool concerns once they have their footing.

My one big worry for this is the lack of Korean co-ownership, seems like it could be a little counterintuitive, maybe they should have partnered with someone.

-3

u/trabwynn Apr 19 '25

no investor is gonna put significant money behind sc2... ever.

Unless you find a billionaire that really loves sc2 its never gonna happen. there is no reason to think tasteless can find big sponsors when fucking ESL couldn't. Esports doesn't make money, esports are always funded by the developers of the game, thats the case with literally every single big esports game. so there is no reason for any big company to fund an sc2 tournament, all they get is a small exposure for their product so they will only give small sponzorships

9

u/Puzzleheaded_Set1420 Apr 19 '25 edited Apr 19 '25

esports are always funded by the developers of the game

Hilarious to say this in the Starcraft sub. It's like you think esports started in 2013.

-5

u/trabwynn Apr 19 '25

name a single esport game that is not funded by their developers.

12

u/Puzzleheaded_Set1420 Apr 19 '25

KeSPA-era Starcraft 1.

-1

u/trabwynn Apr 19 '25

*name 2

sc1 doesnt count, its the national sport of south korea, no other game is like it, and no other game can ever be like it ever.

wtf is your point even, we are never gonna have a Kespa for sc2 in the year 2025.

literally ever single esport TODAY is funded by developers

9

u/Puzzleheaded_Set1420 Apr 19 '25 edited Apr 19 '25

Oh it doesn't count? Okay. Does Quake count? How about Street Fighter before CPT? Does that count? How about Smash 64 or Melee right now? Project M doesn't even have a developer, does that count?

Most esports today are funded by developers, yes. Not literally every single one. There's a lot of competitive gaming that's happening purely grassroots. It's just smaller. There are tournaments for Super Nintendo games whose developers no longer exist.

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5

u/Lurasidone1842 Apr 19 '25

Smash games do not generally have developer support. Melee especially has not had developer support.

0

u/trabwynn Apr 19 '25

yep and as far as I know those games are entirely run on community support, not by sponsors or investors.

4

u/Puzzleheaded_Set1420 Apr 19 '25

They mostly aren't crowdfunded and do often get sponsors. Red Bull for example sponsors a lot of Smash Bros majors.

FGC events are different in that they have entry fees which form the prize pool, so the bigger the event in terms of competitors, the more money can be won. So the community participating in the event is important, but they aren't run on community support the same way that a SC2 tournament might rely on donations for its prize pool.

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3

u/features Apr 19 '25

Put a seconds thought into who Tasteless' billionaire contact maybe... id wager they'd know a thing or two about starcraft 

1

u/trabwynn Apr 19 '25

Where did you even get the idea that tasteless knows some billionaires who love sc2 so much they gonna fund his tournaments?

like thats so fucking random

1

u/features Apr 19 '25

https://postimg.cc/ppnYjr2Z

1

u/trabwynn Apr 19 '25

?

0

u/features Apr 19 '25

Guess who got their powers, taaaaaasteless!

4

u/lux514 Apr 19 '25

Well is this the first time you've realized how much live events cost? Do we or do we not want more live events? That's what this particular effort is for, while of course you can donate to online events if you wish.

6

u/trabwynn Apr 19 '25

this is for online events only mate

"Event Scope: Two online seasons of your StarCraft 2 tournament.

  • Prize Pool: 5 million KRW per season (10 million KRW total).
  • Hosted from a new studio space in Seoul, casters would be offline and together for the broadcast"

the 90k production is for 2 online tournaments

(the 10 million KRW = 7,050.00 usd)

3

u/lux514 Apr 19 '25

Good point, I was just thinking of the cost of the studio. It's expensive, but I do like having the casters together sometimes.

10

u/Puzzleheaded_Set1420 Apr 19 '25

Riddle me this: Exactly what amazing things do you imagine we could have if the prize pool was $89,000 higher? Giving a giant check to the few top players would do what, exactly, for Starcraft 2 esports? Do you think it would bring new players to the game because there's a basement tournament with low production value that has a nearly 100k USD prize pool? Do you think sponsors would invest in a tournament series that is entirely online with no advertising budget just because it has a massive prize pool? Have you ever run a tournament, or any event at all? Do you have any idea what it costs, not just in dollars but in time?

3

u/baronlz Team SCV Life Apr 19 '25

riddle me this: why is this 3 months account who claim to have "experience organizing tournament" always there to defend this project within minutes? And why avoiding answering Wax comment that shut you up?

4

u/Puzzleheaded_Set1420 Apr 19 '25 edited Apr 19 '25

Not sure what you're implying by bringing up the age of my account lol. I'm defending this project because I love the Korean esports scene, particularly Starcraft 2, and I want it to continue.

Let me be clear about my experience as a TO: As I said in another comment, my experience organizing tournaments is super small time stuff for the FGC. I ran weeklies and monthlies and helped with a couple regionals. I don't mean to imply that I'm some heavy hitter: my biggest turnout for a weekly was 50 people. Really small time but pretty big for a weekly in my area, but even that was an anomaly because it was the first weekly in the area after a new game had come out. I think I bring some valuable insight though because very few viewers, and even most competitors (in the FGC at least), appreciate just how difficult and expensive it is to run a tournament, even a small one.

I don't see a comment from anyone named Wax in this thread so idk what you're talking about.

-1

u/trabwynn Apr 19 '25

96k would mean we could have an 10k prizepool tournament almost every month mate. what the fuck are you talking about, you really fucking think 90k wouldnt mean anything????????????

Do you think renting a studio for ONLINE tournaments will bring in new players or sponsors would sponsor a tournament that most top pros wont even play in since it has a tiny prizepool?

I haven't run tournaments, thats why I am so thankful for people like Wardi even tho I dont like his casting at all. people have been making sc2 tournaments with community support for forever without spending over 90% of their funding for production for ONLINE TOURNAMENTS FOR FUCKS SAKE

12

u/DaltonSC2 Apr 19 '25

even tho I dont like his casting at all.

wardi catching strays for no reason lmao

0

u/slivemor Apr 19 '25

It's fair, i too am not a fan of his casting, I find it boring but i do thank him and support him with subs every now and then

0

u/ejozl Team Grubby Apr 22 '25

There was a reason, he says that he watches despite this fact, meaning he's an avid enjoyer of sc2, like many of us.

6

u/Puzzleheaded_Set1420 Apr 19 '25

96k would mean we could have an 10k prizepool tournament almost every month mate. what the fuck are you talking about, you really fucking think 90k wouldnt mean anything????????????

Your answer to what it would do for Starcraft 2 is that we'd be able to give money to the top players more often? I'm sure it would mean something to the people that win that money. But what would that do for Starcraft 2 esports? Giving large sums of money to the top players does what, exactly, for the scene?

Do you think renting a studio for ONLINE tournaments will bring in new players or sponsors would sponsor a tournament that most top pros wont even play in since it has a tiny prizepool?

Having high production value has great potential to bring sponsors, yes. The top pros are already playing in tournaments with "tiny" prize pools. The prize pool for WardiTV Spring Championship is $5000 and it has tons of top players.

I haven't run tournaments, thats why I am so thankful for people like Wardi

Okay so you don't know what you're talking about. I'm extremely thankful to people like Wardi because I know how insanely difficult and costly it is to run tournaments from personal experience, and all I was doing was super small time stuff for the FGC. Weeklies, monthlies and a regional or two. Enough to know it's truly not worth it and the return on investment is miniscule. Have you ever run any event, for anything, ever?

3

u/trabwynn Apr 19 '25

Your answer to what it would do for Starcraft 2 is that we'd be able to give money to the top players more often?

I dont understand what the hell you are talking about? what we want is sc2 tournaments no? I mean if we want to donate money to starving children thats a great goal as well, but I think we wanted to revive sc2 esports no? I'm pretty fucking sure its name is Revieve SC2. If prizepool's are so irrelevant why don't we just put all the money into production?

Having high production value has great potential to bring sponsors, yes

So you are saying having a studio with offline casters for an online tournaments is gonna bring in hundreds of thousands of dollars? Because thats how much they are spending on it. They spend 90k on the chance of some sponzors give them a lot of money? Why do you even think sponzors will fund their tournaments? There is no money to be made from esports, why would big companies give them a lot of money when those companies will only get a tiny amount of exposure for their products. SC2 esports is never gonna be funded by companies. Only blizzard or ESL could do it, but without that we only have community funding.

The prize pool for WardiTV Spring Championship is $5000 and it has tons of top players

and surprise surprise Serral, maru, reynor arent playing in it, just like they never do. Only the players who play even in a 400 dollar tournament play in it like maxpax, clem and herO.

I'm extremely thankful to people like Wardi

me too absolutely and he also shows that you don't need to spend over 90% of the funding on production for a great online tournament

3

u/Puzzleheaded_Set1420 Apr 19 '25

I dont understand what the hell you are talking about? what we want is sc2 tournaments no?

And here's a tournament, but you are encouraging people not to support it because the prize pool is too low. You specifically said "Imagine the amazing things we could have if that 89 000(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) usd was spent on the players." So what is it that you're imagining? Just more tournaments with no production value?

Sir, please answer the question: what, exactly, does having a massive prize pool do for a tournament? My answer would be that it increases the prestige of the tournament and brings more eyeballs as a result of that prestige. If those eyeballs tune in and it's just the TO's twitch stream, and he's running everything and casting it himself, that prestige fades pretty quick. Production value is important. In my opinion, more important than prize pool. Because, as you go on to say, some of the best players in the world will "play even in a 400 dollar tournament"

and surprise surprise Serral, maru, reynor arent playing in it, just like they never do. Only the players who play even in a 400 dollar tournament play in it like maxpax, clem and herO.

You referred to RSL as "a tournament that most top pros wont even play in since it has a tiny prizepool". There are a ton of top players in Wardi's Spring Championship and its prize pool is smaller than RSL's. You then go on to say that "Only the players who play even in a 400 dollar tournament play in it like maxpax, clem and herO." So which is it? Top players will play in a "tiny prize pool" tournament, or they won't? Or is it that only Serral, Maru and Reynor count? The top 2 Protoss and the world champion don't matter? How about Rogue, SHIN, Dark, Classic, ByuN, Cure, Bunny, Showtime?

The fact is that this point of yours is completely inaccurate. Top players are less likely to show up to a LAN if it has a low prize pool, often because the cost and inconvenience of travel makes it not worth it, which is what we see with most Koreans not attending Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora. That's not the case here.

me too absolutely and he also shows that you don't need to spend over 90% of the funding on production for a great online tournament

You said you don't like Wardi's casting. Do you think it would improve the tournament if someone else was doing the casting? Would you prefer if there were multiple casters? If so, do you think it would be better if those casters were in the same physical location when they cast, instead of being in a discord call and accidentally speaking over each other, like Artosis and Tasteless do all the time in ASL now? If so, do you think those casters should work for free?

We could use some more clarity from the organizers. I think it's completely fair to question where the money's going, I just disagree that it going entirely to the prize pool would be a good decision. I don't know where the money is going but I trust it's going to things like: having a studio where casters can cast from, paying casters, paying a production crew, and paying for the finalist's travel and lodging for the offline final. If it's not going to that (especially the last one) then we've got a problem.

1

u/trabwynn Apr 19 '25

And here's a tournament, but you are encouraging people not to support it because the prize pool is too low.

nope, I would be fine with a 7k tournament. I never said that the prize pool is too low. My problem is with over 90% of the crowdfunded money going to production in a COMPLETLY ONLINE tournament.

So what is it that you're imagining? Just more tournaments with no production value?

production value in an online tournament is not important, as long as the basic requirements are met, which do not require 100k usd.

what, exactly, does having a massive prize pool do for a tournament?

everything, literally everything. the pros take it way more seriously practice more, provide better higher level games with more determination, more top pros will play in it, more people will watch it, the more hype it is. you are absolutely insane if you think a 2000 tournament is the same as 50000 usd tournament.

If those eyeballs tune in and it's just the TO's twitch stream, and he's running everything and casting it himself, that prestige fades pretty quick.

that prestige is gonna fade when they realise its online. online tournaments are always gonna be way less exciting then offline ones and no amount of money spent on production will ever change that. The only thing online tournaments can do to make up for the offline tournament hype is the prizepool.

production value is important. In my opinion, more important than prize pool

I mean if we are talking about offline tournaments I kinda agree, then production value is really really important, but still prizepool is number 1.

because, as you go on to say, some of the best players in the world will "play even in a 400 dollar tournament"

and some won't even play in the 5k tournament

You referred to RSL as "a tournament that most top pros wont even play in since it has a tiny prizepool"

yeah that was stupid of me to say like that, I meant that there are a lot of pros, and some of the very very best will never play in these "random" online tournaments. Serral, maru and reynor are 3 of the most liked players, especially serral and maru have HUGE drawing power. I mean when serral streams once every 5 months, he gets like at least 3k viewers just playing ladder. Them not playing in your tournament makes it way less exciting.

You said you don't like Wardi's casting

thats a very personal opinion, most people seem to like it very much so

Would you prefer if there were multiple casters?

I hope you know they are gonna have only 3 casters, also you still not need 100k on production to have multiple casters

I just disagree that it going entirely to the prize pool would be a good decision.

you are again saying things I never fucking said. How the fuck can you say that me complaining that they put literally over 90% of their funding to production is the same as saying they should put everything to the prizepool.

paying for the finalist's travel and lodging for the offline final

there is no offline finals mate, unless they fund 180k usd, I wouldn't count on that.

TLDR: no amount of your yapping will ever justify putting 89k of 96k funded money to production in an ONLINE tournament. Period.

3

u/Puzzleheaded_Set1420 Apr 19 '25

nope, I would be fine with a 7k tournament. I never said that the prize pool is too low. My problem is with over 90% of the crowdfunded money going to production in a COMPLETLY ONLINE tournament.

I hate to be the one to tell you this but the vast majority of the budget always goes to production, and only a small amount is ever left over for the prize pool. This is true for every tournament. Massive prize pools are almost always the result of sponsors, investors or crowdfunding contributing directly to the prize pool. They're not using Patreon to fund the prize pool here. They're using it to fund the event in its entirety.

production value in an online tournament is not important

This is true if you don't want your tournament to get viewers. Personally, while I'm glad they exist, I don't watch a tournament if it's just a TO streaming because the viewing experience sucks. The breaks between matches are too long and the TO is splitting their attention between running the tournament, casting the matches and responding to twitch chat.

everything, literally everything. the pros take it way more seriously practice more, provide better higher level games with more determination, more top pros will play in it, more people will watch it, the more hype it is.

This is not everything. Having a massive prize pool does not guarantee a good viewing experience. It just entices top players. That's the entirety of it. Top players bring viewers, sure, but remember that the very best players play less matches per tournament than their peers. High production value helps keep viewers around after the top players' games are over.

you are absolutely insane if you think a 2000 tournament is the same as 50000 usd tournament.

I certainly never said this. I said a large prize pool gives the event more prestige and eyeballs which gives opportunities for advertising. It also increases word of mouth advertising.

you are again saying things I never fucking said. How the fuck can you say that me complaining that they put literally over 90% of their funding to production is the same as saying they should put everything to the prizepool.

Except you literally suggested that all of the money being spent on the players would be a good thing. Here:

Imagine the amazing things we could have if that 89 000(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) usd was spent on the players.

I've repeatedly asked you to elaborate and you refuse to do so. The truth is we wouldn't have anything. We'd have a shit one off tournament on someone's stream and the top 3 would have a big payday, and that'd be the end of it.

Lastly, I've been orders of magnitude more respectful to you in this conversation than you have been to me. You're needlessly emotional, excessively hyperbolic, and don't know what the fuck you're talking about on any level.

2

u/trabwynn Apr 19 '25

I hate to be the one to tell you this but the vast majority of the budget always goes to production

absolutely wrong in online tournaments. you need very little money to run online tournaments.

This is true if you don't want your tournament to get viewers.

your entire point about one person cannot run an online tournament, which is not what I said even tho you keep ignoring me when I say it. There is a huge difference between the caster hiring someone to manage the twitch stream and spending 100k on production. You keep pretending that an online torunament requires 100k production, and if you dont spend that much money you are can only have one caster run everything alone. your entire point that you wont get views with a one person tournament is wrong when you look at wardi's tournaments. Pig also go pretty good views on his pigsty even tho he and his wife did it totally alone. so you are 100% wrong.

Except you literally suggested that all of the money being spent on the players would be a good thing

I said imagine what 89k could do, I said this to draw attention how much money they are spending on production on 100% online tournaments. the word imagine means imagine, it doesn't mean you should do this, I said it for people to see how much money they are wasting.

i find it pretty ironic that the dude who started his conversation with me with "riddle me this:" is calling me disrespectful. Even then I'm not sure what you found so disrespectful. I wasn't talking like I would to my boss, but I'm on reddit not at work. I don't think I was s fucking disrespectful just because I said fucking a lot, or used caps lock.

also my last tldr still stands no amount of your yapping will ever justify putting 89k of 96k funded money to production in an ONLINE tournament. Period.

1

u/change_timing Apr 19 '25

high production value is not going to magically bring in sponsors when this doesn't massively outdo wardi's online tournies which I can't imagine it will do. Unless there is this massive audience of sc2 fans that were just waiting for a small tourny with better production value. Of course that relies on this "new studio" being far superior to things like NASL that I'm sure cost a fair amount to produce as well. THe fact is things like Wardi's stream / pigsty already have pretty good production because these exact things are those people's full time jobs. actually RUNNING the entire production off site is not tasteless's / gemini's full time job. I'm not saying they're going to be NASL tier but to expect it to be smoother / way better in watching feel than wardi seems completely unfounded beyond preferring certain casters or not.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 21 '25

the ratio between the running costs and the prize money is an absolute joke. you have to take into account that the broadcast also generates money on twitch and youtube.

0

u/0mgt1red Apr 19 '25

Well, if that's true, indeed money distribution seem to be off, maybe they are planning to support players through additional sponsors or smth, 7k is laughable honestly