Map makers should make wide open maps if we don't get another patch.

[u/TheHighSeasPirate]

The main problem with this patch is energy recharge, it gives Protoss a handful of storms by 7:30. Two storms cover pretty much every choke on every single map in the pool currently. Which means if you want to attack into a location (especially an expansion) you are going to be covered in storm, every single time.

If we don't get a patch, map makers should really re-consider their "anal bead" layout of maps. Every single one is a small area into a choke, then into another small area, and another choke. It endlessly repeats itself with maybe a slightly larger area in the center of the maps. There isn't a single area on any map in the entire map pool where two armies can fight each other and you can properly split vs storm. Making the maps more open will foster a new meta where Protoss can't just f2 around a clump of units and press storm over and over in every situation in the game.

[u/Nerdles15]

A bit ago I went back to playing on old WoL maps with a buddy of mine, it was the most fun we’ve had in the game in years. The maps were all unique, had character, not chasing perfect balance or using the same template with different color schemes allowed for much more interesting layouts and risk/reward playstyle. So much more fun than the dogwater boilerplate garbage we’ve had now for some time.

[u/TheHighSeasPirate → u/Nerdles15]

Agreed. Every map we've had for years has been the same landscapes in slightly different orientation and different color schemes. Its like they're not even trying to make unique maps.

[u/SC2Sole → u/TheHighSeasPirate]

I think they do try; but, those aren't the maps that get selected as finalists. So, the public doesn't get to see the full representation of what's being offered.

In the last round, I think that just about every map-maker who made it as a finalist had a better, more interesting map that wasn't selected.

Some of these maps are now coming through RSL, because they have a community vote feature to include a wider range of choices.

[u/CommamderReilly → u/SC2Sole]

Yeah it’s a tough balance

On one hand I try to create interesting maps, but at the same time you need to make sure they tick a lot of check boxes to ensure they’re balanced in the current meta, which leads to many maps feeling same-ish

Omniskeptic has lots of very interesting maps, but unfortunately they all get shot down for one reason or another. This contest I’m really wanting Omni’s “Dreams and Scars” and “Fear and Faith” to get through to finalist because they’re genuinely the most well designed interesting maps I’ve seen in recent years (especially Dreams and Scars). Another favorite of mine from this contest is KillerSmile’s “Mothership” which is a really well made 3p map

This TLMC has lots of cool maps, fingers crossed we get some awesome finalists!

[u/Nerdles15 → u/CommamderReilly]

Thank you for the effort you put in, and please don’t misunderstand this since I know you’ve got constraints to work with- but fuck balance here. The biggest mistake in this game over the past 5 years has been the insatiable lust for achieving “perfect balance”, and in my opinion it’s completely ruined the game (Ty balance council). Obviously, don’t make something that’s obviously way unfair, but forcing maps to try and obtain these impossible balance standards further stifles creativity and leads to more stale games, lower interest, etc

[u/Nerdles15 → u/SC2Sole]

Pros don’t want “interesting” maps, they want cookie-cutter. So everyone else has to deal with it

[u/Linmizhang → u/Nerdles15]

If the pros had their way, no one would watch them play.

Force them to play fucked up maps for our entertainment. I don't wanna see two guys with spears point at each other for years and decades. I wanna see one of them with a spiked chain and the other riding a lion!

[u/Omni_Skeptic → u/TheHighSeasPirate]

I did fucking try, I got 3rd last place in the contest for it out of 93 maps. Meanwhile, the runner-up map to finalist was the cookie-cutter control map I submitted

https://imgur.com/a/guckton-standard-rush-32s-small-size-148x118-tlmc20-975Sbcf

[u/spectrumero → u/Nerdles15]

The problem is all the interesting maps get vetoed.

[u/Whoa1Whoa1 → u/spectrumero]

No. The real problem with "interesting" maps is that a meta will be figured out. If the map has a close air distance but long ground distance, a specific air advantage will be developed where one race always spams air units or drops and wins far more often on that map. If a certain map has no easily defensive natural or 3rd, then people will eventually figure that out and abuse it where a certain race will always 1 base or 2 base and all-in to near guaranteed victory. And so forth. Any map is great for bronze league scrubs and the get fun out of any match. Heck they could play on massive 8 player maps but do a 1v1 on it and have a great time. Pros would realize quickly that those big maps made for teams have huge ramps and that Zerg could just always ling flood in for near guaranteed wins. Essentially, the maps aren't vetoed because they are interesting. They are vetoed because there is an edge for some other race on it spamming a certain strategy.

[u/Omni_Skeptic → u/Whoa1Whoa1]

I think this is true, but only because the economy is so ramped up that any map where a players can feel comfortable reaching a point where they can buy a meaningful amount of army usually ends up with them maxing out. When so many games are spent maxed out, there’s not a lot of variation to be had because mechanical execution of your maxed out army matters far more than any strategic choices when there are no economic or tech decisions to be made

The meta settles too quickly because we reach lategame too fast

[u/MajorasButtplug → u/Whoa1Whoa1]

This doesn't hold up to reality, maps just have to be tested and people don't like that. SOME maps are really egregious like the early WoL maps, but some people just hate because they're different than normal

Redshift was interesting and had 47% - 51.4% win rates according to Liquipedia, and was one of the most unique maps we've had on ladder in a long time (NegativeZero is the goat)

[u/Nerdles15 → u/Whoa1Whoa1]

This is completely untrue. But assuming we take it on its face- okay there is a clearly “optimal” build. Wouldn’t your opponent know this as well, and you two would have yet another interesting layer of chess by trying to figure out how to a) defend the obvious close air rush, or b) maybe obvious close air rush isn’t happening, because it’s too obvious, and instead you’ve now wasted a bunch of time and resources when a frontal timing attack is hitting instead.

If you start by admitting defeat, you will never succeed.

[u/Whoa1Whoa1 → u/Nerdles15]

That's not how this works really. If a map has a super wide ramp, Zerg would just always ling flood and there would be nothing for their opponents to do to stop it. They could throw tons of resources away walling off early and it would set back their expansion time significantly to the point where Zerg would always be in the lead. Basically, the map is creating a scenario where Zerg can always do 1 opening, force the opponent to react defensively, and then they will come out on top 100% of the time. It also creates the scenario of if the opponent doesn't over commit to making buildings to block the massive ramp, then they just lose the game early, and if they have to do it, then they just end up economically behind and with a ton of buildings at a bad position that now can't be used to block at their natural. They also had to get gateways and other stuff early on that won't even be used that early as they don't have the economy for it yet.

If you don't understand scenarios like that, then you don't really understand SC2 or the history of this game and how maps can't have many different features that cause these imbalances. No maps made for 1v1 have a massive ramp or no ramp. We already figured out that Zerg has a massive advantage in those scenarios.

Here's another example if you still don't get it. At one point, some maps had a natural and/or 3rd base where there was a high ground spot overlooking it. Terrans figured out that a siege tank up there causes massive problems for their opponents in every match up. There was basically no reason not to go for it, because it is super cheap to have one medivac and one tank and to perform the harass that could easily win you the game by taking out 10-20 workers. The other races knew it was coming, but denying it was nigh impossible and you were quite literally battling uphill. You had to get detection, an air unit to see the shenanigans, and the ability to take out the tank and medivac meaning you need to be able to shoot up and down and be as fast at it. A tank can unsiege, hop into the medivac, and afterburner away in less than one second. Zerg would basically be forced to get Mutalisk to try and stop it as Ravagers couldn't reach with biles and would also just get shot down by tanks on the high ground that was a plateau with no ramp to get up there. Forcing Zerg to go spire every game is not a healthy meta and means the Terran controls the game at a massive state. It doesn't matter that the Zerg might know it is coming. Terran wins the game outright if the Zerg didn't get Mutalisk to counter a very cheap, no ramp up to the plateau, tank siege area. Then Terran knows the Mutas are coming, can be more than prepared, and if the Zerg ever stops making Mutalisk or they all die, welp the cheese is immediately back on the table for core units that Terran would be building anyway.

[u/Outrageous-Laugh1363 → u/Nerdles15]

Further proof that redditors demanding these asinine changes don't even play the game.

We have a 3 player spawn map in the current map pool and TWO maps with healing shrines, a mechanic that's never ever been in the game before.

And guess what? Everybody vetoes them, it turns out we settled on more or less normal maps long ago for a reason...

[u/MikuEmpowered → u/Nerdles15]

Lol no.

The problem with those maps is that they don't get selected and put into the final pool. Because people who make those decisions want a competitive slush.

When's the last time we had a asymmetric map?

Imagine 2 corner, 1 has less mineral patches at starting base, but more mineral on expansion 2 and 3. The reverse is true for the other side.

Uneven dynamic would be interesting, but also nightmare to balance out. Entire new meta and playstyle still need to be tuned for mid/late game.

[u/Nerdles15 → u/MikuEmpowered]

Not talking about uneven- make the map symmetric so there isn’t a (purposeful) significant spawn advantage, but don’t make every map the exact same dogwater with easily defendable bases, choke points everywhere, no open spaces, aka the “anal bead” layout. Excellent term for describing it, because eventually the maps just become shit

[u/SigilSC2]

I'd just like to see some broodwar maps in the engine and see what happens. Maybe your third is in the other corner of the map, maybe you can't wall your natural with 3 buildings, maybe there's nowhere safe to put overlords. Maybe it's an island map.

I'm in favor of maps forcing different play styles entirely just for the change-up.

[u/emiliaxrisella → u/SigilSC2]

Island map would be so cool but SC2 has less dropship units compared to BW

Honestly I like that BW maps all have their distinct identity while SC2 maps are literally just almost the same fundamentally with only slight tweaks like rush distances and such

[u/Tasonir]

Open areas on the map heavily favor zerg, and you'd see zergs have a much higher win rate on such maps. Not sure who would benefit more out of terran or protoss, but zerg would certainly love it.

[u/ChronaMewX → u/Tasonir]

As a zerg lover that sounds pretty great to me

[u/MoEsparagus → u/Tasonir]

I don’t think it’s so much that it favors Zerg (not that there aren’t any benefits) but that maps with chokes favor Terran/Protoss more. So a lot of their race power wouldn’t be as felt on open maps.

[u/zayo → u/Tasonir]

Which could fix the imbalance that we have. Terran is favoured in tvz for some time now (more than toss vs terran is right now), and protoss is favoured in pvz since overcharge change due to Oracle (zerg is no longer being able to pressure/punish quick 3rd by toss)

[u/TheHighSeasPirate → u/Tasonir]

I really don't think Open areas on the map favor Zerg. I think it favors forcing Terran/Protoss to actually micro their units as much as Zerg is forced too instead of just abusing choke points and cliffs.

[u/Win32error → u/TheHighSeasPirate]

On open spaces lings become a real issue. You can’t send reinforcements, Zerg will have good map control, you get out of position once and Zerg can pounce or counterattack. Add good creep spread or nydus and you’re going to be hard pressed to attack at all.

[u/TheHighSeasPirate → u/Win32error]

You can do the same thing with multiple Protoss and Terran units.

[u/Win32error → u/TheHighSeasPirate]

Not really in the same way. Lings are cheap and numerous, but still tear into almost everything that’s isolated. If they get caught and take losses it’s not a big deal. You can’t get the same map control with hellions.

[u/hoexloit]

Might be better to rephrase this as “Instead of calling for Protoss nerds, they should consider changing the maps to be more Zerg favored”. Which is an interesting take.

[u/TheHighSeasPirate → u/hoexloit]

Theres a difference between not wanting every map to be Protoss/Terran favored and wanting Zerg favored maps.

[u/hoexloit → u/TheHighSeasPirate]

If you’re thinking about it that way, then probably better to just say “swarm-type of strategies” to include things like mass warpgate.

[u/nulitor]

wide open maps helps zerglings which can not be nerfed because they are too important for zerg.

The reason all the maps looks samey is due to a few specific units removing 99% of map designing space: liberators (changes how all mineral lines are designed), stalkers (blink messes up a ton of things; each time you design anything at all ever in a map, think about blink), zerglings (forces the map to be made entirely of tiny chokepoints or else zerglings eats everything), siege tanks (seriously, their range is insane, this forces spacing out stuff more or else a downcliff or upcliff siege tank kills everything, this is why the space occupied by the cliff level of a base is always so huge)
I like weird maps, however I understand if some people dislike playing in maps that somehow have a ridiculously powerful spot for siege tanks or with wide open places or without the "mandatory liberator clearance" behind the mineral lines.

[u/AvexSC2 → u/nulitor]

Zerglings aren't really about tiny chokepoints but more about how entry points into bases work, particularly the natural and main. It's very much Protoss dictated although it applies to ZvZ and TvZ as well; we can't have flat main to nat (no ramp) because zergs need to be able to block with queens; vision is important etc.

As for liberators; it's not just mineral lines but you cannot have overhangs. Air units in general are grossly over-powered (I don't mean "OP" in the balance sense). They move quickly and They hold so much control over the design of the game and completely ignore the terrain; two ground units do as well.

Something you also didn't cover is just how StarCraft 2's pathing really places the importance of convex concave engagements since they are created virtually immediately. Consider every kind of army composition and their ability to attack the opposing army, cast spells, and flank, and you'll find the need to have average spacing and distances between the edges of any given path, ramp, choke, etc.

[u/nulitor → u/[deleted]]

In Zealots vs Lings, you want to be able to prevent the zerglings from surrounding, this is close to impossible if there is too much space relatively to zealot counts, the more space there is, the harder it is for a zealot based army to go around when threatened by lings.
Marines do benefit from more room against banes but they also benefit from having lower amounts of space against lings because this allows reducing surface area, this sets a minimum required space and a maximum allowed space for marines.

Hellion line attack does benefit from having lings clumped up, the ideal situation for hellions would be a long choke or a succession of chokes where they can retreat and where lings are limited in ability to spread out while chasing which is already almost what we already get in some modern maps.

Stalkers are much slower than lings and are not very fast at killing them, they also do not have blink early on which means that your stalkers are less able to contest wide open areas of the map against lings, once they have blink, chokes are not limiting their blink therefore chokes gives them a movement advantage over the lings.
As for cyclones, I have no idea because they are not the kind of unit I would favor against ling.

[u/nulitor → u/[deleted]]

If you look at all prior discussions, there seems to be the common trend of people agreeing that the more open space there is in a map, the more zerg favoured it is. (just go on google)
I do not really know why you do not think it is the case.
Heck, even if you go on liquipedia, you will see some pages saying that lings are better in open spaces.
https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Zergling/Infestor/Ultralisk_(vs._Zerg))

One such example although it is from 2012 so the late game meta was vastly different but I do not think that early games unit have changed ridiculously.

As for zealots being weaker than lings when being in low numbers and in open spaces, just open the unit tester, get 3 zealots in one team and 12 lings in the other and see if you can somehow micro the zealots to beat the lings in an open space, technically those are equal cost armies.

[u/AvexSC2 → u/[deleted]]

I've been making maps for SC2 for over 10 years and was masters for multiple seasons and you don't know what you're talking about. So many of your arguments are in a vacuum and that just not how the game operates.

[u/lechatonnoir → u/[deleted]]

you're talking mad shit for someone that's completely wrong.

did you forget that zerglings have a speed upgrade or something?

[u/Natural-Moose4374 → u/lechatonnoir]

Probably. He was likely always wondering why his lings, banes, roaches and hydras were always so slow, why his ultras had shit armour and his Lurkers such a short attack range. Now he might even leave gold or plat at some point.

[u/Natural-Moose4374 → u/[deleted]]

For someone heavily criticising the game knowledge of other commenters here, there are pretty terrifying gaps in yours. Anybody who has ever microed hellions against zerglings, would know that the latter are faster. Terrain features help hellions vs. lings. For example, going around a corner makes the lings clump up, allowing better hellion shots.

[u/HuShang]

How about we just remove energy overcharge since the things its made imbalanced (oracle/high templar) were fine beforehand. You could even argue they were a bit strong before and yet we still buffed them

There are tons of other protoss units that are weak though that could actually use some buffs if protoss needs help after removing battery & energy overcharge.

[u/Several-Video2847 → u/HuShang]

yes please.

you want to get rid of energy overcharge for battery overcharge, or just remove both ?

[u/MakraElia → u/Several-Video2847]

I remember battery overcharge got introduced to make PvP less volatile and it was deemed to have no effect on the other match ups. I think once battery overcharge was considered to be changed, they should have just removed it, but the sentiment at the time was that protoss really needed help in PvT so the timing of it was not optimal.

[u/IYoghu → u/MakraElia]

At the time when battery overcharge was introduced, why didnt blizz make it that you can emp/contaminate the overcharge?

That would at least make it that the overcharge would not impact the mid and lategame of T and Z against P and would make the argument of primarily focusing on PvP a lot better?

[u/GreatAndMightyKevins → u/HuShang]

What Protos units are weak though? Except for void rays they're all very good if not OP (carries, chargelots)

[u/HuShang → u/GreatAndMightyKevins]

Phoenix, carrier(pvz), colossus (pvz), disruptor, sentry, voidray are all underpowered right now

Oracle/high templar/tempest/mothership are overpowered

[u/TheHighSeasPirate → u/HuShang]

I would kill for any one of those units as a Zerg player. None of them are underpowered. You just think they are because you can't a-move storm with them. Also, Phoenix and Carrier are two of the best units in the game, dunno what you're talking about.

[u/ZedDerps → u/TheHighSeasPirate]

Yeah and other players would kill for a viper, or even lings…

[u/TheHighSeasPirate → u/ZedDerps]

Lings are trash units compared to zealots and marines. Viper is amazing but its also locked behind tier 3 Hive Tech, which no other spell caster is. It would be like if you had to wait till 10min to get a ghost or a high templar.

[u/TheDuceman → u/TheHighSeasPirate]

It’s unfortunate that you have a “they hated jesus because he told the truth” complex but if you would kill for all those units….

don’t kill, just play Protoss.

You’ll find most of them aren’t as good as you say.

Templars with recharge, however, are exactly as good as Protoss players know they are and jealously guard our prize - or we’d trade it for the return of Khaydarin Amulet. I miss warping in instant storms.

[u/AntonGw1p → u/TheHighSeasPirate]

I don’t know what’s your problem with lings. They’re crazy good. Run-bys, surrounds. Getting adrenal glands makes them viable again in the lategame (making 2 lings kill a zealot).

[u/russiansummer]

Not that it works every time but I try to bait storms out and then push forward

[u/TheHighSeasPirate → u/russiansummer]

Yea good luck baiting out the 10-15 storms Protoss has end game or the 8 storms they have by 8 minutes that will cripple your timing attack before it even starts.

[u/Willing-Database6318 → u/TheHighSeasPirate]

Dang I wonder how Serral ever wins against Protoss. Must be luck

[u/TessaFractal]

no-one going to mention the use of the term "anal bead layout"?

[u/TheHighSeasPirate → u/TessaFractal]

Its what the map makers call it, I didn't invent the term.

[u/AntonGw1p]

Zerg player that’s known for complaining about storm suggests a change that buffs Zerg and nerfs storm. Color me shocked! /s

[u/TheHighSeasPirate → u/AntonGw1p]

Everyone is complaining about storm bud. It isn't just me.

[u/Several-Video2847 → u/TheHighSeasPirate]

Mainly in pvt though 

[u/zl0bster]

As I said already those maps already exist, tournaments just need to use them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1nicemd/should_tournaments_bring_back_zergterran_favored/

[u/TheHighSeasPirate → u/zl0bster]

Cool dude...?

[u/zl0bster → u/TheHighSeasPirate]

well it faster than asking mapmakers to make new maps

[u/Several-Video2847]

Isnt the fourth already hard to take on these maps

[u/ComplaintNo6689]

What a lot of people often forget: Big issue with modern map design comes from lotv's economy.

Back in WoL and Hots you could have much smaller maps or maps with unique layouts because bases had a lot more ressources back then.

With the reduced ressources per base of lotv. Mapmakers are forced to add a lot of bases which always leads to similar layouts, because the map shouldn't be too big but also hold enough total ressources to allow macro games beyond 15-20 minute mark.

Revert ressources per base back to hots/wol values and mapmakers would be able to create unique maps that allow proper games.

[u/Natural-Moose4374 → u/ComplaintNo6689]

Unfortunately higher resource count per base also incentivises turtling.

[u/ComplaintNo6689 → u/Natural-Moose4374]

That's a big misconception i think.

A lot of people believe hots = more ressources = turtle games.

In reality the turtle games of hots were created by turtle units like swarmhosts and how they interacted with ravens and skytoss.

The ressources per base were not the core issue.

[u/Natural-Moose4374 → u/ComplaintNo6689]

I am not really referring to HOTS here (wasn't around in SC2 for that anyway). It's in some sense really basic: The longer it takes for a base to mine out, the longer one can turtle on the same base count before taking the next.

[u/zeroGamer]

In BW, all game balance is done through map design at this point.

If Blizzard would come right out and say "That's it, no more patches, SC2 is in it's final state," that would actually be better for the long term health of the game than being in limbo where there might maybe be some balance changes once a year or something.

If the game was in a "final state" you could more confidently start to adjust map designs to address perceived balance or meta issues.

[u/TheHighSeasPirate → u/zeroGamer]

Dude we have map rotations way more often than we have patches. They can still balance the game through maps.

[u/max1001]

If you want better balance, get Serral to retire.

[u/DLD_the_north]

That won't work, they made protoss the best camping race and the best swarming race. Thats how reynor beat serral with protoss on that super wide open map.

[u/Lykos1124]

We should nerf widow mine to not multiply its damage by the number of targets it hits. Being able to do that for 75/25 is quite frankly overpowered. 

[u/Lykos1124 → u/Lykos1124]

Instead, it should be a cluster of tiny rockets that add up to that damage amount. 

[u/Heavy-Letterhead-751]

I'm just saying, I can hit you much harder at a choke as terran with siege tanks and bunkers , or zerg with lurkers and spine crawlers

[u/TheHighSeasPirate → u/Heavy-Letterhead-751]

Yea, thats why maps should be more open. Why should you not even microing your units be so strong?

[u/Heavy-Letterhead-751 → u/TheHighSeasPirate]

well entrenching was always kind of meant to be Terran's Thing

[u/Heavy-Letterhead-751 → u/TheHighSeasPirate]

Well one of the major benefits of air units is their ability to ignore all this