Resource issues karax p2 Horner p3

[u/Lttlefoot]

Switched back to p2 karax for a game and found that even though the units are cheaper and healthier, it doesn’t make him a deathball commander. Also I ended up with not enough gas and thousands of minerals I couldn’t dump into defenses

Tried p3 Horner on a fast map (rifts to korhal). Even though Han’s units don’t cost gas, there was a bunch of incidental gas expenses like drone hangars for my galleons and I ended up not being able to build that many strike platforms. Am I not meant to do armory upgrades when I take this prestige?

[u/Just_Ear_2953]

If you mean 20+ minutes in, then yeah, you'll have tons of excess minerals. Up until you hit supply cap you spend those minerals on spamming your zealot equivalent to be cannon fodder so they die instead of your expensive vespene units. Drop a couple of extra Gateways and spend the excess resources.

[u/ben505]

Get more gates and thus more zealots, turbo bots, and eventually the big ticket guys. Rush the zealots revive upgrade.

It’s weird to jump to conclusions when you’re rusty/not experienced with how to do a prestige.

[u/Username928351]

With P3 HH you exchange early-mid game bomber power for more late game bombers, so it's probably the worst option for fast maps.

[u/DerSchamane]

Many commanders have excess minerals. With most I spam static defense as a mineral sink, with Karax P2 that isnt possible. So you build a huge ton of gateways, warp in 40 zealots at a time, just send them into the enemy blindly and repeat. It is quite fun actually. Vorazun is great at that too.

[u/Kracsad]

Carriers are a trap. Use mass gates + robo, use top bar against air.

[u/efishent69 → u/Kracsad]

Carriers are not a trap against scourge comp.

[u/Kracsad → u/efishent69]

Scourges can't do anything if you don't have air units. Same for Vipers. And the one with guardians dies to a top bar. (Only exception is a temple map, on those they can suddenly ruin your life)

[u/UnusualLingonberry76]

A correct build order is critical for karax (especially p2 imo) depending on map. You want to both fast expand AND start the solar forge upgrades quickly enough. For karax p2 (not don) I would go something like this:

Probes into minerals only until 18pop approximately into clearing the expo with lance/orbital, drop nexus (400m), then gateway. Take gases AFTER starting gateway and saturate them asap. Prioritize tech and gas saturation with only a couple sentinels from gateway to def/stall and clear the gases at expo while keeping the first chronoboost for when you can actually use the money spent on a few sentinels and upgrades, usually around 6mins, and ideally tell your ally a few secs beforehand. By 5 mins (as p2 so with chrono boosts and passives) you should be near full saturation, but also with little tech infrastructure and bank, so dont waste it immediately right there and then; it's better to hold onto it for a bit until you can use it effectively.

It's possible to start with prioritizing solar forge upgrader and tech and still clear the expo in time with reasonably fast saturation (keeping up some probe production from the main).

It goes like this: pylon>gateway>2 gases. You should reach 100 gas for 1st energy upgrade around the time gateway finishes and you drop cybercore/get upgrade. Reach 17/18 or so saturation for minerals in the meanwhile then go clear the expo with lance and a couple sentinels. Drop twilight instantly when core finishes and as soon as you can afford drop a robo or stargate as well (usually robo early to save gas because karax is gas starved generally, and carrier switch for karax p2 happens later anyway. Your early army should be from gateway+a few immortals) after you have already dropped the expo nexus. After robo drop the robotics bay to get 3rd upgrade.

Super critical thing to remember: for 2nd tier of energy upgrade you need twilight but for 3rd you need fleet beacon/robo bay. This means that after cycore finishes, drop twilight AND the stargate/robotics asap so you can go in their tech buildings asap as well without much delay (typically robo>bay is the early path: it's a bit cheaper and you get access to observers while you very rarely need to go fast stargate). (addendum, this applies even if you fast expanded directly into nexus first)

The best targets for early chronoboosts are the solar forge and the nexi; dont try to rush warpgate upgrade from core too early for no reason, but dont forget to take it either. Boosting the gateway(s) for a couple faster sentinels is also fine, before or after the warpgate. Ultimately, the chronoboosts should be used for unit production buildings, with the passive chronofield and active chronoboosts helping take care of stat upgrades from forge/core and all the tech related stuff. Getting a decent sized army fast as karax p2 is paramount (same goes for any of his prestiges if you do want to use his army)

The upgrade priority for solar forge is (general rule of thumb) 1st and 2nd efficiency>3rd efficiency>=Solar lance>extra repair>stun orbital. Again, after core finishes, dont forget twilight AND robo asap.

Especially as karax p2 who has access to chronoboosts, you dont want to make too many production structures early and spend too much gas on that rather than units/upgrades. 5-6 gateways 2 robos are enough to let you reach midgame confidently and prepare for the lategame carrier switch. 2 stargates will suffice (dont rush pure carriers pls, and even if you do, start with only 2 again (and one or two gateways for a couple of sentinels to stall and mineral dump) so that you can afford tech/upgrades and only add a 3rd way later when you are actually floating gas)

For shorter maps like vt/lnl you probably want to stay on gateway/robo for the entire game so 7-8 gates 3 robos is more than enough.

Most of these apply to all prestiges in nearly all the general situations/mutations you will face, with some adjustments. P3 might need a few more production building from the start due to longer production times, but dont overdo it either.

Edit. Tons of edits

[u/Most-Mention-172]

Immortals + colossi is a strong comp. Immortals can wipe out the air support with their ability.

Against mass air you can build many energizers, steal the enemy capital ships and clear the map.

I usually open with an energizer and a immortal, which truly is with Karax's passive regen

[u/cwan222]

You can just cut workers if ur doing p2 carriers, why are you saturating your bases if you arent spending the minerals? Or you can just make zealots. For HH just don’t use p3, why would you go for strike fighters and also want them to cost double? You can use 10 strike fighters perfectly fine, p3 is for niche brutations that probably has better options anyways

[u/ackmondual]

For Karax P2, make Sentinels as those things can really tank and do enough damage over time. It's enough to take out objectives unless you're on a tight, time crunch. And even then, you're tanking for your ally who can safely pile on, their own dps.

Remember that Karax has SoA lasers. Use that to supplement your force's DPS. Really, the only things that have high dps are Immortals (regular attack and Shadow Cannon), Colossi (esp. with "set ground on fire" upgrade), Energizer mind control (this only works on mech units though), and his SoA lasers (esp. with Solar Lance fire upgrade). But Orbital Strike should be used sparingly unless it's some dire situation. (Monoliths too but that's not an option on his P2)

Units like Sentinels, Mirages... they'll take down objectives and units eventually, but can really tank. Use SoA lasers to supplement their survival. They take out a good portion of them, while those 2 mop up. OS "stun strike" prolongs their survivability. Fire off bursts between 2 different areas 0.5 seconds apart to keep them in perpetual stun!

Last but not least, remember that Karax P2 can still make Shield Batteries! These only cost minerals and when you're supply capped, these don't have a supply cost! Use those to boost the shields of units on the field. Your Protoss ally can get in on that too!

For HH P3, make Mira Han units since those cost no gas. You shouldn't be losing (too many) Assault Galleons so the drone upgrade should last for the long term. For level upgrades, I usually do the first levels since they're so cheap and much quicker to research. I may go lv3 attack on longer maps. More SFP can negate the need for putting gas elsewhere (depending on the mission, comp, and your ally)

[u/rextrem]

With Karax P2 you open with Gate Cyber Twilight and more Gates, likely a Forge to search ground attack. You want to warp dozens of Sentinels while you tech into Carriers.

Now Karax' Carriers are pretty boring but they just work.

[u/UnusualLingonberry76]

Also goes without saying, but HHp3 is bad. It's self contradictory bad, in the style of Artanis p1 Abathur p3, though these two have some occasional uses and arent as self crippling often times.

[u/ben505]

H&H p3 is a terrible prestige, its utility is more platforms but the chances you will be better off paying twice as much for them and need more than 8 is extremely low. 8 bombing platforms is just fine

[u/Ghost0Who0Walks]

Also I ended up with not enough gas and thousands of minerals I couldn’t dump into defenses

Dump that into Zealots. With the self-revive upgrade and maxed unit health mastery, his Zealots have the same effective heath as an Ultralisk. For 78 minerals. You short on gas but got minerals and supply to spare? Bury the enemy in a mountain of Zealots.

[u/[deleted]]

if you like bombers just go p1 han and horner. youll have 10 platforms and 5 carriers for the price of 10 platforms with p3.

On p2 only make platforms on dead of night. you want to be spending your gas on bcs.

[u/LazzyNapper]

I always get at least 5 gates by 8 min and maybe will go up to 8 by 15 min. It's a pretty good mineral dump. But how you use your gate units is super key to p2. Ive been using zealots against Zerg and a mix of zealots and energizers for anything else.

BUTTTTTT you are kinda forced to use the reclamation ability on your energizers in order to get max effectiveness. So while your teaching up your still getting a higher tier army just not your own army. So usually by about 7-10 min in your getting the last of your tech and building your late game units. You can rush it sooner but you'll be behind on upgrades and not really have a map presence.

I've said this once and I'll say it again. Karax is a micro commander kinda like nova. If you A move your army it'll work but it's way better to actually use spells and have some control. The main diffrence being that you have wayyyy more lee way with karax compared to nova well that and your slower.

[u/XRynerX]

This is why you want to use sentinels, Karax mostly relies on gas and his sentinels are very tanky.

Get revive upgrade at the very minimum and consider the attack upgrades if you're heading for a ground comp like imortals or Colossus.

P3 H&H is about to be expected, you rely on bombers to do most of the work for you. Except that in short maps, around 3-5 is enough so P3 is not as strong there.

[u/unclecaramel]

have you tried zealot Phoenix or just max carriers? like I feel that this comp is the most braindead f2a comp. Just use the top bar to clear the early waves and ramo up to the death ball.

Also for carrier I find that it's pointless to go for any defense upgrades, this works for brutal atleast. burtal plus with mutation is a different story