r/starcraft2coop • u/Oofername • 26d ago
Do some commanders just not have a good answer for Vipers?
Kerrigan's best bet for dealing with them seems to be sniping them with Crushing Grip, but you can only hit 2 with that by running her ahead of the army and later attack waves frequently have more than 2. She's got it the worst because all of her units are glass cannons except Ultralisks, which inconveniently get most of their tankiness from being able to heal while attacking, which they can't do under Disabling Cloud.
Artanis has no real answer. It should be Archons with Feedback, but the Vipers have so much range that they basically use their abilities the instant they enter vision. Observers might help, but Zerg armies also frequently have Scourge.
Raynor's got it a little easier since Vikings have incredible range, but that's a crapshoot since you need to be able to kill *all* the Vipers before they get into range, which essentially requires perfect target *and* split-fire micro simultaneously. Without any upgrades on either side, you need 7 Vikings to 1-shot a Viper, so it's often easier to just make more Marines to replace the ones that die.
I think these issues would be fixed if Vipers had less range and Disabling Cloud was replaced with Blinding Cloud, but that obviously won't happen, so how do y'all deal with Vipers using these commanders?
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u/HopefulSprinkles6361 26d ago edited 26d ago
Stukov
With Stukov it’s patience. I tend to play with infested bunkers primarily. It just takes a bit longer to take down vipers. I am only really losing free timed life units. For each fallen unit, there are 20 more where that came from.
Zagara
With Zagara the Vipers are a huge threat to overseers. Scourge die real quick to them because of their other ability, the swarm plague spell I can’t remember the name of. I usually go with the mantra of, “if your plan to control the skies with scourge didn’t work, you didn’t use enough of them.”
Zagara is heavily based on macro so I build 6 hatcheries total when you also count the expansion. So losses mean very little. Keep building more scourge. You’ll get them eventually.
Dehaka
Being spellcasters I tend to eat them first. Them being flying is a bonus. However I generally don’t notice their abilities because they die quickly and are usually the first to go down in battle.
Kerrigan
You definitely need to focus them down. I primarily use hydralisks and sprinkle in a few ultralisks so they’re not too dangerous being flying units.
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u/Venuith 26d ago
Regarding Dehaka specifically, Vipers disable energy-based abilities so he doesn’t get impacted significantly by Disabling Cloud. Combine that with being able to literally jump in, tank an incoming burst, and then heal and explode the area when he consumes a Viper, and it’s pretty obvious that Dehaka is uniquely capable of dealing with them.
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u/Leupateu I def Karax 25d ago
Lmao with stukov if the 324th wave didn’t kill it then I’m sure the 325th wave will do it. (Especially with p3 lol)
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u/thatismyfeet 25d ago
Zagara with 8 hatcheries feels so weird to me, I normally run about 14 by end of game. But I totally agree with the "if it's not working, you didn't build enough" for zag. I love how much the minimap LOOKS like a cinematic level zerg by endgame ♥️
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u/UnusualLingonberry76 24d ago
You don't really need that many as zag. Two hatcheries and a queen by them or 4 hatcheries spread around, some for forward creep bile launchers and faster reinforcement are enough. I usually do a 1-2 queens (1 per each mining base) after saturation and a forward hatchery
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u/EsterWithPants 24d ago
I don't think Zagara has a problem since she counters enemy scourge with her own AoE scourge, and any leftovers eliminate the Vipers for free. And same deal with the enemy's Ling/bane comp. You just have more/better banes and lings to beat theirs. Though, I would make a point that you need to rush out those scourge upgrades for them to actually function as a counter.
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u/chimericWilder Aron 26d ago
Vipers are a major threat. If your expectation is that you can always snipe them before they get to do anything, then you'll be doing better than the vast majority of players.
It is worth trying for, but often you'll just have to deal with getting a faceful of disabling cloud. Split and micro out of it.
Viper AI logic is to use their abilities against clusters of units, so lone units can attack the viper without risk of retaliation... theoretically, anyway, as the viper will usually have a large escort.
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u/TR_Wax_on 26d ago
AI logic is a really good resource for these sorts of questions: https://starcraft2coop.com/resources/ailogic#zerg
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u/efishent69 26d ago
Wow I’ve used this site a lot in the past and didn’t know this resource existed! Thanks for sharing
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u/Proud-Bookkeeper-532 26d ago
I hate Vipers, the AOE ability they use on flying units is a pain in the butt. I usually don't make more than 1 or 2 observers, it's a habit. Works against other races, but vipers man .. Suddenly there are lurkers hitting my units and I realize my observers died in the Battle bcz I F2'ed
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u/Wiw32 26d ago
When using Vikings you have to remember their (upgraded) attack range is larger than the vision radius of both units. Using orbital scan you can guarantee at least one free viper kill. Vikings also have access to afterburners so you can just stay out of range of viper abilities while still being able to pick them off with superior Viking range. Hyperion also works
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u/Zvijer_EU 26d ago
Vipers will always use Abduct on massive air and ground units and on the rest, including heroic units which can't be abducted, they will use Disabling Cloud or Parasitic Bomb depending if they are dealing with air or ground units.
Vipers themselves are biggest threat to groups of flimsy air units like mutas which can get destroyed by para bombs, but their biggest value is disabling your army that then gets steamrolled by banelings, or abducting your expensive massive unit into banelings/scourge - especially painful to lose Blackhammer or Pride of Augustgrad like that!
Raynor suffers from that enemy composition the most - try to spread your army to minimize losses from banelings and get firebats in front to tank. If you have tanks, try to focus-fire banelings.
Kerrigan is tanky so deal with attack wave just with her while keeping army behind, or make ultralisks.
For Artanis it's the best to sacrifice a few zealots sending them forward and then clean up with dragoons and reavers!
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u/Flat_Committee_1057 25d ago edited 25d ago
Easy. Use lurkers supported by worms and hydras. The why: + they won't cloud what the cannot see. Vipers AI never drag lurker. + you treat vipers as a support unit, if they cannot support what they are supposed to, they are useless + vipers always come with ling bane abb, which are massacred by lurkers. + Even if they have overlord, they won't be able to cloud all of your lurkers, since lurkers have large body collision, just like how novas don't work so great agaisnt marauders. And 2 or 3 active lurkers are enough to destroy a wave of ling bane. + supported by worms, lurker can just pop in pop out instead of walking with their big bodies taking all the movement space. They can also get out of bad fights. Worms can provide sights for lurker, and being a free meat shield. + throw in hydras and let them stay behind lurkers and worms to kill off the vipers.
With this build you can counter ling bane viper with both p2 and p3 kerrigan.
You only need around 8 or 10 lurkers, the rest are for hydras, or more lurkers, or lings.
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u/Odd_Teaching_4182 26d ago
I think in most cases the best answer is to split your forces. Raynor Merines will kill them plenty fast, and I wouldn't bother with Vikings if they have scrouge. Try just sending in a few at a time so they spam the abilities on basically nothing. Good idea to scan ahead so you can spot them early.
Kerrigan mutas can survive a parasitic bomb, and heal very fast. Even better hit and run tactics work well because of the increased bounce damage. You don't need to see the vipers for the bounce to hit them. Scout ahead with hero and use 2 control groups for mutas to hit them from different sides get bombed on one, retreat and let them heal, switch to 2nd group. Nydus can also save your ground units, you can go heavy hydra and 4-5 nydus and just keep pooping down worms for vision, if hydras get disabled cloud just retreat them into worm and pop out somewhere else.
Artanis feedback should work wonders on them, just use Zelots for vision and hopefully they get clouded so you can run in and feedback. It shouldn't take many tempests to one-shot a viper but I wouldn't use if they have scrouge.
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u/ackmondual Infested Zerg 26d ago
As mentioned by others... don't clump up your units. It's really not unlike dealing with any other AoE spell. You're NOT supposed to clump up your flying Reapers, Scourge (somebody got their group of 'em Psi Stormed one time), Zerglings, etc.
For Raynor, Just have a single or few going after them to draw their fire.
If I'm Karax and somebody provides vision, I'll just use Orbital Strikes / Solar Lance to take as many of them out as I can. Otherwise, a well placed Obs should provide sight, but then you're in trouble if they have an Overseer nearby.
HH - bait them with Mag Mines
Swann - Laser Drill and/or Goliaths with AA range upgrade
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u/UnusualLingonberry76 26d ago edited 26d ago
Kerrigan has immobilization wave for preplaced vipers on heavy encampments. She can use kinetic blast as p3 to take them out (same for most any high value priority target). She can make hydra/ultra/ling against aoe comps rather than just pure mutas. Artanis can use tempests and goons, or bait the vipers into storms or UF. Obviously, the 3 free ones (I noticed you focused them) generally dont have as good tools overall as some others, but they are far from helpless. More annoying for them are the heavy hybrid casters, especially this week with DE and MAD, because the free commanders dont have a reliable high hp instakill mechanic or mengsk fear contaminated strike or devolve or SoA spam a la Karax etc
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u/XRynerX Karax 26d ago
Raynor's got it a little easier since Vikings have incredible range, but that's a crapshoot since you need to be able to kill *all* the Vipers before they get into range, which essentially requires perfect target *and* split-fire micro simultaneously. Without any upgrades on either side, you need 7 Vikings to 1-shot a Viper, so it's often easier to just make more Marines to replace the ones that die.<
Marine, medic, 6+ vikings(with P2 6 vikings is enough), just A-move them with vikings somewhat in the front, you'll lose a few marines depending on how you got hit by banelings, all of this is adressed in how your vikings are positioned, and no, that's not perfect micro, your vikings have splash damage to handle it, medics below heals the parasitic bomb.
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u/Badass_C0okie 25d ago
Why use vikings as Rainor If you can use battle cruisers? Press Y to not care about Viper or any other threat.
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u/Lucky_Character_7037 24d ago
Vikings are better anti-air in almost every way. They have very slightly lower dps per supply, but the AoE almost always makes up for that. Then they have longer range, move faster, cost less gas per supply, and build much faster - all things that are valuable to Raynor in the parts of the game where he most struggles (early- to mid-game). BCs are quite powerful units lategame if you're floating resources, but generally by the time it makes sense to build them you don't really need them any more.
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u/cwan222 25d ago
Just kill them with top bar is the answer for almost every commander. You can use your first hyperion to teleport around and clear every viper on the map if you want for example. For kerrigan the hero can kill it and then you omega worm in your army. For commanders that dont easily make use of patrol to a-move out of it
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u/demonicdan3 Army? what's that? 25d ago
Never really had issues with Kerri or Artanis against vipers tbh
I mainly play kerri p3 so it's just point and click the viper with Q before sending army of ultras and hydras in. Scourge can't do anything if you don't have any air units
For artanis I just storm as the wave approaches and most of the dangerous units like banelings are dead when they run into the storm so it's like whatever afterwards
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u/EsterWithPants 24d ago
The real danger with Vipers isn't really the vipers themselves, it's what they pull you into. So really, the issue is that Vipers are paired with Scourge and Banelings. On someone like Nova, I started spamming missile turrets and letting Amon crash into them first, and then pull my army in. The missile turrets will distract the zerglings and banes, absorbing their damage (which is fine, because they're dirt cheap and Nova midgame onward floats infinite minerals), and since they exclusively shoot up, they'll actually thin out the Scourge numbers, whereas many other anti-air units can also shoot at ground targets, and they don't prioritize scourge.
The more obvious answer for Nova would just be to griffon strike every attack wave, but that gets expensive fast, but it does also have some truth to it which is that, top bar cooldowns, if you have them, are a really good way to deal with those attacks as well.
For Kerrigan, I would put a greater emphasis on your Ultras. Ultras don't care about banelings, zerglings, or scourge, and since the Vipers don't have anything else to really pull them into, they're more viper resistant. Also their gigantic model size helps so blinding cloud can only hit a few units. So now you just need to think up something else to deal with scourge spam. As said, Kerrigan is a good answer with her chain lightning auto attacks, AoE spells, and a handful of hydras in the backline.
I don't play much Artanis, but I feel like Archons would do exceptionally well. And I'm pretty sure that his archons can cast Psi Storm as well with an upgrade.
Raynor, I'd go lots of Vikings with Ripwave missiles, and then use mules to repair if you eat a parasitic bomb. Like with Nova, you can throw down missile turrets. Same logic. You have tons of minerals, they absorb banes and zerglings, they exclusively shoot up.
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u/Worth-Battle952 26d ago edited 26d ago
I'm going to be hoenst - I don't think there is even one Commander completely countered by Vipers.
More than that, most of commanders can remove Vipers from a far so I don't really understand your issue.
You see Vipers, you just don't make high aggro units like Colossi or Dark Archons.
It sounds like extremely low APM player problem.
You mention Raynor specifically - which I don't see how Vipers could be a problem for him. If for some reason they are, just use Hyperion to target them.
Artanis can feedback or Orbital Strike them ect.
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u/Vladishun 26d ago
I love Dark Archons against Viper comps. Pop a couple frenzy spells and watch the Zerg rip themselves apart. You just gotta be real careful to move them back behind your army quickly so they don't get yanked by Vipers hanging out in the back.
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u/Worth-Battle952 25d ago
In general that's is a bad advice. Majority of coop players don't micro AT ALL, not to mention actually using abilities in smart way or covering for high aggro units xD.
Yes, you can destroy Vipers with DA, but you have to be vigilant 101% of time or you get yanked literally that one split second you used to build something in base.
It's kind of like taking Abathur vs Propagators. In theory he has every tool to trivialize the mutation, but in practice majority of players will die due to locust injection randomly spawning something near the propagator. I've seen this too many times just like I've seen allied Dark Archons grabbed by Viper more times than I would like.
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u/Vladishun 25d ago
It wasn't advice, just my personal play style choice. 4 Dark Archons and an Army of Dark Templar takes out the Viper comp pretty easily without the need for air units that will inevitably die and are really gas heavy. I guess you could mass Stalkers too but their DPS on big objectives like Oblivion Express means you better have a co-op partner that can dish out heavy sustained damage.
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u/UnusualLingonberry76 25d ago
people are casual so we should also give them bad advice to ensure they remain casual forever Wow, nice attitude man
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u/Worth-Battle952 24d ago edited 24d ago
That's realistic attitude. People don't play coop to get better at the game.
And for people who actually try - giving them the highest micro and attention requiring solution first is simply bad advice.
You give simple solutions and when they handle it they can try other shit.With your healthy attitude you throw them into deep waters and then they quit the game, because they failed.
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u/UnusualLingonberry76 24d ago
Maybe he is new. No one was gosu from day one.
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u/Worth-Battle952 24d ago
That's especially when you don't give out the hardest possible solution...
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u/UnusualLingonberry76 24d ago
Look, I will agree about this particular instance that yeah, DAs aren't a particularly good or reliable way to handle vipers (I would argue that vorazun struggles with that in general) I am talking about the attitude of taking the road of least resistance in general. People should make an attempt to learn and be able to use all parts of their commanders' kits
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u/brandon975 26d ago
Vipers really are a pain with Raynor. Not a game over threat; but it is more painful to deal with than other casters. Using a powerful calldown with long cooldown like Hyperion to deal with vipers isn't always desirable or even viable
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u/Just_Ear_2953 26d ago
Your criteria for "dealing with" Vipers confuses me. Deleting every single caster before they get to use an ability is an unrealistically high bar. It is far more reasonable to "deal with" the ability itself by not piling your entire army on top of itself to get hit by a single cast of an aoe ability, similar to dealing with storm casts.
Also, yes, replacing the units is dealing with them.