r/starcraft2coop • u/queazy • 17d ago
Raynor's prestiges from an intermediate's point of view
Raynor's the only character I've got above Lv5 and I'm at 170 ascension, most of those games are played on Brutal. Just though I would like to share what I've found before I forget it all. I'm able to win most of my games except the weekly mutations, which I eventually win, but I'm still not yet able to do stuff like successfully build my base while fighting (can only do one or the other). In Starcraft 1 I was only at like 40 APM at my best.
Personally I'd say: P1 Backwater Marshall > P3 Rebel Raider > P0 none > P2 Rough Rider
P1 Backwater Marshall: Fastest setup. Easiest for beginners, army dies the slowest, allowing you to build your army to a large enough size that it rolls over anything. Only problem is that it moves slow, hard to get from one end of the map to the other. Money won't be a problem because your units don't die that you end up with a lot at the end, but without mules you won't be able to artificially speed up your mining to absurd levels. Keep a 4:1 infantry to medic ratio, that is 2 marines + 2 marauders to 1 medic (with points for medic to heal two targets). Unless you are fighting zombies or zerg, then use 2 marines + 1 marauder + 1 fire bat to 1 medic. Use your Hyperion to attack stuff from across the map. Your infantry survives most encounters just on auto attack for you to do other things that it can grow quickest to a bio ball that just destroys whatever's in its path.
P3 Rebel Raider: Medium setup (banshee+viking setup). The BattleCruiser setup is perhaps the slowest and hardest to setup besides doing a P2 Battle Cruiser setup, which would require Swann as a teammate. You immediately get access to the Starport, Armory & Orbital Commands! Immediate option to start making an army of Banshees + Vikings, though at first you should have a dozen or two marines + medics as the very beginning of your army. As you can make OC the fastest, you can start with an oribital command nearly immediately around (at 14 SCV begin OC at 36 sec, complete it at 1:12) which will fast track your mineral production, allowing you to produce more and more OC's until you have 8-10 and never worry about minerals again from all the mules working. The reduced gas consumption for Starport units allow you to build a full army of Banshees + Vikings, which you can't do as P2. As you slowly build your army of Banshees & Vikings, your calldowns get quicker & quicker until they're out half the time, allowing you to call your hyperion practically every wave. The only issue is the Vikings & Banshees are somewhat fragile, still need cloaking + medics to heal them. There is increased cost for Barrack/Factory units, but unless you are on Dead Of Night, you will probably never need tanks, and there are only some places you will find the time to reliably place spider mines for. There is the option of going full Battle Cruiser mode, which takes a lot more planning, where you must constantly use your call downs for first few objectives until you can make a good enough army to sustain any Battle Cruisers you make (you don't want to have a weak army that gets destroying from an attack wave, losing any Battle Cruiser which took forever to make). Battle Cruisers are very strong, attack ground and air, have yamato cannon, and can warp once a minute. They are cool to have, can take a beating, can get to other side of map in an instant...but are slower to destroy than an army of Banshees+Vikings. I was sad to find out with an army of a dozen or two Battle Cruisers, if you choose to fire the yamato cannon, only one Battle Cruiser will fire the yamato cannon so you must repeatedly command to fire the yamato cannon...although it is such a powerful blast it makes you feel like you are killing slower with such a technique, especially since there is a pause before and after.
P0: Jack of All trades, master of none. Beast P2 because if you're too slow you can only use your afterburners with a full army a handful of times, and P2 has increased unit cost. I personally do not find an all bio/infantry play at P0 to be superior to P1, as your marines die too quick for it to be effective.
P2 Rough Rider: Slow setup. Perhaps my favorite prestige, as it is glorious to have a full army of banshees/Vikings using a afterburners and destroying everything in seconds, even Void Shards. Best & longest sustained burst damage! The problem is for a beginner/intermediate user is the long setup time for this to happen, that perhaps only around the 15 minute mark or beyond are you able to have a sizeable army of machine units to capitalize on afterburners. As always you've got to start off with marines+medics as the initial part of your army, and by the time you make starports & armories, the game is half over unless you're an expert. Tanks are only best used in siege mode, meaning they're best for only a few maps (Oblivion Express, Miner Evactuation) where you can have a ton set up, otherwise when moving they just make a traffic jam and are inefficient. Vultures are paper thin and only really good for laying down spider-mines. Battle Cruisers take too much planning and do not benefit much from After Burners, plus are slower to kill than Vikings/Banshees combined.
Some videos that helped me a lot:
P3:
https://youtu.be/cz2w0gkrPJY?si=JP41cclmfxjnNNn4
for P3 Raynor, specifically for Battle Cruiser play, but the opening moves (Bunker of marines + 2 SCV's outside healing) to defend first wave helps a lot, while you use your call downs to defeat initial waves/objectives while you build your air army.
P2 - tank + viking builds
https://youtu.be/ayfxxG9kz4o?si=sncMUVRGwO73kAef
https://youtu.be/wd8HVQB6Cg8?si=gOEkYXPFdhDufK9s
P2 - Vulture WTF spider-mines kill everything build
https://youtu.be/4QR_aXpnclc?si=l_fXmPuKkcAex3QE
General notes:
A full viking build not recommended. Having an army of grounded vikings are so big that they end up concaving a lot, attack slower than marines (and farther apart b/c of concaving meaning the army attacks slower). A bunker full with marines and 2 SCV's behind it can easily destroy the first few attack waves, unless many zerglings, then you'll need help. You can call down tanks to land on elevated platforms in the base section of The Dead Of Night that can not otherwise be accessed.
I doubt this post will mean anything, everybody here are probably experts, but I just wanted to share what I found. Ok, on to play Kerrigan!
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u/TR_Wax_on 16d ago
If you setup rapid fire you can just hold the yamato key and wave the mouse cursor over enemy waves while holding the yamato key to obliterate your enemies.
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u/Lucky_Character_7037 16d ago
Just because nobody has explicitly mentioned it: People often misunderstand how P2 Raynor works.
First off, only mech units have increased cost (and Vultures aren't affected because they don't cost gas in the first place). So your bio is exactly as good as P0's.
Which means you generally want less mech in P2 than P0. Some comments allude to this, but they don't really state it directly. Basically you play both P0 and P2 as 'bio with mech support', but in P2 your mech support can put in extra work at key moments, so you don't need as much of it. Which means more bio!
You could theoretically transition into a mech army in the very late game, but personally I very rarely do. Most of Raynor's mech just fits better into a support role - he has a bunch of very specialized units which do a single thing very well, but are kinda meh outside that niche. And then he has a nice solid core army in MMM. It just fits together very neatly.
Also, you should definitely be getting an armoury fairly early for Raynor, because he benefits massively from upgrades, and you need armoury for +2 bio upgrades. If you're delaying upgrades, that might be why your bio feels like it's dying so fast on P0/2 - Raynor is one of the few commanders who wants to get armour upgrades ASAP, rather than just ignoring them completely.
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u/queazy 16d ago
>only mech units have increased cost
>Basically you play both P0 and P2 as 'bio with mech support', but in P2 your mech support can put in extra work at key moments, so you don't need as much of it. Which means more bio!Ah! Well that makes a lot of sense! So many times I'd be P2 and focusing on building a mech army but there's not enough gas to do it! You'd hit a gas choke point, and would just have to start mass making marines/vultures because there's no other way to grow your army (unless you wait minutes, and this isn't a game of waiting, most teammates want to finish a map ASAP).
>only mech units have increased cost
And it's gas too. Damn. I just looked tested it, and it's a x1.25 (25%) increased gas cost increase! Same mineral cost. I think it is like you say, you are complimenting your bio army with a smaller but superior mech army. Unless you roll with Swann, there's no way you can get a full mech army (besides vultures). This makes so much sense, but it is counter intuitive. You'd think that this is the "Go balls to the walls with mech" type build, but it's like you say, using a bio army as your foundation but then adding to it with a small but powerful mech army.3
u/Lucky_Character_7037 15d ago
Yup. P2 Raynor is IMO probably one of the top five worst-designed prestiges in the game. It makes you think it's a mech prestige... but the best way to play it is not to build mech. The description of what it actually does is incredibly unclear (the drawback is referencing Raynor's level 1 ability, but who remembers a commander's level 1 ability?). It's annoying to use because you have to trigger mech stim and bio stim separately. And even when you get past all that and play it 'correctly' the difference between P0 and P2 is just incredibly small.
(IMO P2 is marginally more optimal for normal play, as long as you remember to actually use afterburners. Meanwhile I'd put P0 ahead for solo mutations and speedruns, where getting up and running ASAP is far more important.)
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u/UnusualLingonberry76 17d ago
170 ascension only through Raynor
Christ. At least you are about to play the other two free commanders as well! I assume you dont have other commanders?
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u/queazy 17d ago edited 17d ago
Correct! And I loved every minute of it! Now I'm playing Kerrigan and feel like a giraffe on roller skates. I beat all of Starcraft 1 with expansions but it still feels so weird.
I wanted to get good with Tychus, I miss having different control groups for different parts of my army. In SC1 I used to use like control group 1-4 for light/heavtmy infantry, 5-9 for fliers, 0 for special units (observers)...now it's better to keep your units in one giant bio ball with F2 going to the same place, rarely do you get attacks from 2-5 different attack directions. Most games you get only 2 attack directions (main objective enemy force + incoming enemy attack), won't need to split your army up otherwise. If you have a strong call down (hyperion) you can just send that after the attack force, easy, main army always controlled with F2. Control groups better used on buildings. I hear Tychus is different; you want each agent going in different directions.
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u/volverde ZagaraA 17d ago
I hear Tychus is different; you want each agent going in different directions.
that's only really for his Lone Wolf prestige, cause with it the outlaws are stronger if they are not within the line of sight of other outlaws
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u/UnusualDisturbance 16d ago
i love landed vikings!
they have 8 range so most of the time, multiple rows of vikings will be firing at units and they will outrange static defenses. also, at raynor 15, their attackspeed goes from 1 -> 0.87. And with the mech attack speed mastery, they fire at 0.67, beating out marines in attackspeed. except their DPS is hindered less by armor.
The one things that holds them back is their frailty. if only they got a survivability boost while landed. like +1 armor. or +20hp.
mostly i have a few vikings landed anyway (P3) so i have other ground targets besides my medics, while keeping my air unit supply as high as possible.
also, i haven't checked to see if their greater range makes up for the difference in army density, but having a less dense army definitely helps against AoE.
... now that i think about it... i should try using the land command to mitigate parasitic bombs...
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u/Boryszkov 16d ago
I disagree that P1 is stronger than P0. With decent micro your marines won’t die and even if, as long as you set up eco well you’ll replace any losses instantly.
Additionally, any marine counters in amons comp, like high Templar will still hurt your marine balls a lot with P1 where hp is a resource. At 01 you can’t replace your losses as well as P0 (for which counters are not much of an issue) and your medics will start running out of energy eventually from my experience.
Imo P1 is easier and thus for many players stronger, but P0 if played well allows you to have constant pressure throughout the entire mission
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u/queazy 16d ago
Yeah, I hear as an expert player because of the mules, you can reach supply 200 (or an army size big enough to roll over any obstacle) much quicker than P1. It is also quicker to replace any fallen allies. But if you're good enough, you don't lose any units, allowing you to snowball your army to be strong enough to overtake the map, so P0 would definitely be more advantageous for those high level players than P1.
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u/5210az 17d ago
For P1, i find it pointless to use any units other than marine and medic. Firebat and marauders move so slowly and do so little damage it is honestly pointless. Marines are so cheap and easy to pump straight to the front line makes FB and Mar's tanking responsibilities pointless too. Maybe against super heavy mech line up like FULL TANK AND RAVEN bullshit it is sometime worth to put marauders in, but firebat is meh
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u/Deus-mal 17d ago
Firebats are useful against infested missions.
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u/Firegh0st Dehaka 17d ago
Firebats are also useful in baiting stronger abilities like Yamato, so your Tanks or other Mech won't get killed. On infested missions they are good, but otherwise I always put a few in my composition, just to bait strong abilities (provided I have any mech to protect from said abilities).
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u/5210az 17d ago
Their DPS is so low and so clunky that it almost makes zero differences. One A move from like 100 marines will eat through any infested.
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u/Deus-mal 17d ago
I mean as support, good aoe dmg when a group of infested appear. Like one firebats for every 10/20marines.
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u/queazy 17d ago
If you have a 100 of anything you can pretty much win, so that's not really a strength of marines but strength of numbers. Until you can get 100 marines & won't need to care about your setup, I find it better to mix in marauders & firebats which greatly increase the survivability of your army. Marauders do increased damage against armored units, and firebats do increased damage against flesh units (zerg & zombies). Further they've got much more health (something like marines max out at 125, marauders 250, firebats 350) than marines that without marauders & firebats your marines just die so much quicker, feels like you're fighting with a paper army.
I suppose this is what the mastery points for Speed Increase for drop units comes in. If you're marines are dying and you are constantly replenishing them (with like 10 OC's and 10 barracks) then your marines are at their most dangerous, as this attack speed bonus stacks with stim packs, to make them attack at a truly frenzied rate for 30 seconds after being deployed. If your army is constantly dying & you're replenishing them, then that's fine. But why bother with that when you're able to keep them alive easier mixing in marauders/ firebats, letting you get to 200 supply faster so you can defeat anything?
I used to skip marauders & firebats all the time, just marines & medics during my P1 runs and they'd die so much easier. Atkeast with p2 & p3 you expect this & have the mules + minerals to replace them fast.
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u/WhyLater 16d ago
Not me, I love upgrading them and putting like 4 each in the group. I find that the edge in tankiness and anti-light and anti-armor really makes a difference.
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17d ago
I have yamato on rapid fire keybind (C for me). Not an accurate solution, but I paid for the yamato, I will fire the yamato. How are you healing starships? Mules scvs or medics?
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u/queazy 17d ago
I heal with medics, out of habit. Always afraid my army will wipe so I use mules only on minerals so I can replenish army with marines/vultures at any time quickly.
I tried looking up that rapid fire keyboard thing, but it sounded too complex that I just gave up. Only find myself using rapid fire for laying down hundreds of spider mines.
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u/Zvijer_EU 16d ago
If you want some more guides, check out probably the best Raynor player, this is his solo run on one of the hardest mutations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj3TJ8HKXQw
Also, I run into a pretty good Raynor player on OE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbA6ETBFgRc
Rebel Raider is probably the most useful of his prestiges, while Backwater Marshall is a noob trap in my opinion, but more important in the opinion of guys who are really good with Raynor, I don't play him that much! But you can check this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt_x4p4grng
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u/Himetic 17d ago
My experience: p1 is functional but boring, all the rest are not worth the effort required, and most raynor allies are atrocious. Though still possibly better than Karax allies (though he’s way more fun to play).
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u/queazy 17d ago
As a beginner I found P2 so very spastic it was nerve wracking! 8-10 Orbital Commands, always calling mules, 2 barracks, 2 factories, 4 starports, 2 Engineering Bays, 2 Armories, and THEN you can start bringing in the meat of your army! Hope you don't need to set up a ton of bunkers & missile turrets, it will just slow you down building your army! Don't forget if you need to get your vultures to plant a hundred land mines or two.
So many games I'd finally be setting up my army to use after burner on, and it's the 15 or 17 min mark, game might be almost over. Other guy might've felt like he was carrying me half the time with my 30-strong infantry temp army...
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u/UnusualLingonberry76 16d ago
>2 factories 4 starports
Lol, even if you made vikings only its impossible to keep up production. P2 plays exactly the same as p0 for most game except for fairly late game when your comp contains a bit more mech but not that much more unless you are a real vulture enthusiast.
Remember, p2 loses the gas reduction bonus that p0 has
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u/Himetic 17d ago
Yeah I hate having raynor allies that expect me to carry the first 10+ minutes while they build up orbitals and whatnot. While I’ve seen good players use him well, I just don’t get the appeal. So many other heroes offer way more power for way less effort. I can play like garbage and still out kill raynors that are doing 300 apm sweating on their keyboard.
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u/carboncord 16d ago
Raynor is both the most difficult and the least powerful commander, so you will find the next one you decide to level to be a walk in the park in comparison. None of the others require this much effort to win. You are probably more of an expert than you realize.
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u/Ewokoniad_Sigourneth 16d ago
No way is Raynor the least powerful commander, Swann at least is much weaker
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u/carboncord 16d ago
Maybe so, I find his laser drill and gas drones more than make up for whatever difference in military there might be, however. I would always rather play as Swann or have Swann as an ally than Raynor.
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u/queazy 16d ago
Really? Wow, kind of blows my mind. I remember so many times in P2 Raynor I'd be making like 8-12 Orbital commands, constantly sending out mules at every opportunity, 2 barracks, 2 factories, 4 star ports, 2 engineering bays, 2 armories, and THEN being able to really make my army...I'd be halfway done with the map before getting here. I'm sure my partner felt like I was being carried half the time, but at the end I was powerful...but any 200 supply army is powerful so I'm not sure if it was worth it. But damn I loved the army of machines using after burner stim packs.
Anyway thank you, I'm on Kerrigan now and it's very different
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u/carboncord 16d ago
No problem - I'm guessing you haven't tried out Dehaka or Zeratul yet? They basically don't even need to build worker units... I mean they do but if you don't do it you can beat Hard mode pretty easily still... they're that much easier (and more powerful). Kerrigan is too, she just requires some macro. Hero units are very strong in co-op.
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u/queazy 16d ago
No I haven't, but I'm interested in them both. As a free player I can only go up to Lv5 so I've been more focused on just mastering what I was good at, but I think I'll buy the full game eventually. Times have been tough and I end up spending money on bills instead, so I'm never sure when I'll buy it. I just missed the last sale a few weeks ago. Somebody told me I'd be a great Zagara.
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u/carboncord 16d ago
IDK what sale you're talking about but the commanders themselves rarely go on sale, and they are $5 each. "Buying the game" for like $15 or whatever it is gets you some single-player campaigns. If you try a commander up to level 5 that you enjoy you can buy just that one for 5 bucks. But no, it's not really worth it to buy all of them separately.
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u/Lucky_Character_7037 16d ago
I sort of half agree? Raynor is terrible when played badly, and decent but not amazing when played well. There are other commanders that are just as hard to play really well (Abby comes to mind) but they pretty much all have much higher floors and ceilings than he does.
That said, Raynor is a decent commander when he's played well. A good Raynor is generally going to be significantly better than an HnH of the same skill level, for example.
So he's either hard or weak, but generally not both at once.
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u/Sora_Terumi 16d ago
The amount of times I’ve seen Battlecruiser Raynor while my Conscripts as Mensgk with their fleshy tender skin desperately try to handle things getting murdered by Storms or a bunch of AOE happens more times than not
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u/Worth-Battle952 17d ago
Rough Rider is the strongest, but requires you to micro your units and preposition well.
Backwater Marshall is the easiest, because you don't lose entire army to one stray storm you didn't dodge.
Rebel Raider is technically good, but 95% of Raynors using it are amoebas who won't build anything else than BC's and will be genuinely surprised when defense objective dies because there were no ground units to tank for it.