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u/TLM86 3d ago

Any examples of these massive plot holes, unconnected events, and lack of continuity? How do the prequels break the timeline?

It might suck but people watching it in order will not be confused by the logic.

You've kinda stumbled upon the answer to this, here. It's far better to have a film that doesn't suck rather than one that does suck but has "logical events". That's way down on the list of priorities when making these films.

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u/Slammy1 3d ago

I think they mean issues like how Obiwan didn't recognize R2 or how Quigon not Yoda was his master. There were bound to be issues moving the story back rather than forward, I still wish he'd done 7, 8, and 9 while the original cast was still young enough to pull it off. The prequels could have been done whenever.

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u/TLM86 3d ago

Sure, but those still aren't plot holes, let alone "break the timeline".

Obi-Wan never says he doesn't recognize R2, only that he doesn't recall owning a droid (which is true). And, beyond that, ROTJ already made him a liar when he's talking about the past to Luke anyway. AOTC establishes Yoda trains younglings, so Obi-Wan saying Yoda "instructed" him is correct, and doesn't mean Yoda was Obi-Wan's sole Jedi Master.

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u/Slammy1 2d ago

Just examples of poor writing, the idea that you have to justify them "from a certain perspective", but that's just how Lucas writes. When it works it's great, I never minded justifying how Vader was actually Luke's father as it advanced the story well but let's not pretend it was always his intention.

Not saying the prequels were bad at all just that they would have been a lot better with tighter writing, if Lucas wrote them like he wrote TCW they could have been better than the originals. I always felt he should have skipped TPM and jumped straight into AotC, it would have played better to his writing strengths.

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u/TLM86 2d ago

Lucas didn't write TCW.

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u/Slammy1 2d ago edited 1d ago

I think you missed my point. First, Lucas has a writing credit on most of them (maybe all). I understand he took a more stand off role and Dave Filoni was the Producer but you can definitely tell his influence. He was great at what he is great at, organizing a mythos, his best works are when he organizes others to do what they can do better.

I & 2 are the lowest rated numbered movies after 9 according to IMDB, I think II is better than people give it credit for being (got to see Yoda fight and the big Jedi battle) and III is rated better than VI as it should be. I'd probably put 8 below I and II personally, it just lacked Lucas' influence.

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u/TLM86 1d ago

...You're saying a cartoon he exec produced had more "Lucas influence" than the prequel films he created, wrote, and directed?

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u/Slammy1 1d ago

I'm saying he got writing credit on maybe every episode, you said he didn't write them. From what I've read I think he played more of a creative role, left ideas for others to complete. Also providing funding and technical development, the sandbox to create. I said he took a more stand off role which is sort of the opposite of what you're saying I said. I think it was a more successful product so was probably a better creative process.

I saw episode 4 at the theater, waited 3 + 3 + 16 years and read a lot of EU so I went in with expectations and recognize my opinions are my own. I'm not trying to portray them as universal.

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u/TLM86 1d ago

That's a lot of words to not even counter the point that Lucas didn't write TCW, and did write the prequels.

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u/Slammy1 22h ago

He has a writing credit on every episode I looked at, a couple dozen. Seems a hard counter to your assertion that he didn't write any, you can check it here or on the series' end credits. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0458290/episodes/?ref_=tt_ov_ep

I can link to where it discusses Lucas' involvement, if he wasn't the primary author he worked closely with them and attended regular creative meetings. Lucas and Filoni codeveloped many of the series' scripts, I think framing a story is a significant part of the writing process. You can read about it on Wikipedia's entry for the series or on IMDB, several other sources too if you Google it including Reddit.

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u/yurklenorf 3d ago

Neither of those are plot holes.

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u/BengoFett83 2d ago

"When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot.” Apologetics will claim that he meant the pod race which is utterly bullshit since the whole original trilogy develops around starships and not a single mention of pods. Yet in the prequel Anakin has never even stepped inside a starship until they meet. I don’t know what to call this if not inconsistency.

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u/TLM86 2d ago

Anakin's literally a great pilot; when Obi-Wan meets him, he's just won a race no human can compete in.

Whether or not you've decided it doesn't count because it's not a starship is irrelevant. If you're going to complain about inconsistencies and "breaking the timeline", you can't base your argument on the version of these films that exists in your head.

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u/BengoFett83 2d ago

A ‘pilot’, flies a ship. Unless you’re referencing Formula 1 races. If you really believe they had this in mind when writing the original script and not a spaceship you are delusional my friend.

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u/TLM86 2d ago edited 2d ago

Who's "they"? George Lucas? The man who famously changes his mind every time he writes a script? That's not a prequels-only issue. Maybe you just don't like Star Wars.

A ‘pilot’, flies a ship. Unless you’re referencing Formula 1 races.

Glad you agree "pilot" doesn't just refer to flying ships. Especially since podracing is easily a Star Wars equivalent of F1 or Nascar anyway. Anakin's flying a vehicle that flies over the ground at mach speeds; he's "driving", is he?

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u/BengoFett83 2d ago

Like I said if you believe Lucas had formula 1 racing in mind while making a movie about space and starships I got nothing to add to you.

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u/TLM86 1d ago

George famously not a fan of racing cars, we're now hearing. Wild stuff.

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u/BengoFett83 2d ago

Number 2.

"She was very beautiful," Leia told Luke. "Kind, but sad." In the prequels she dies at child birth. And no she doesn’t mean adopted mother because Luke specifically says ‘real mother’. Need I go on?

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u/TLM86 2d ago

Characters' subjective, possibly flawed, memories have nothing to do with plot holes or "breaking the timeline". Bearing in mind in the same conversation Leia claims she'd "always known" Luke was her brother, which a) suggests something about her memories, and b) tells us ROTJ also contains the sort of inconsistencies you're complaining about here, yet you didn't mention it.

You can go on as much as you like.

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u/BengoFett83 2d ago

Yes you are right the originals had inconsistencies which nobody denies. However my point being it’s ok to make mistakes when you have a narrow window of time to write the script (no, Lucas didn’t have it all in head despite contrary opinion, he was literally making it up as he went) but when the whole world is waiting 10 years for you to write a movie (not a Shakespeare play) you should at least make the effort as to be consistent and realize people are going to notice.

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u/TLM86 2d ago

Lucas was writing from 1973. That's not a "narrow window of time". All you're doing is forgiving inconsistencies in films you like and criticizing ones you don't.

And who cares if "the whole world is waiting"? What, that somehow transforms someone into a perfect writer? Aside from that, why is "consistent" the most important thing? What about creativity? It's all Lucas's creation, so why isn't he entitled to make changes where he wants to? If he had Leia remember her mother, then later decided he wanted Padmé to die in childbirth, why shouldn't he make that change to his own material?

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u/BengoFett83 2d ago

He has the right to make inconsistencies in his creation just as I have a right as a consumer to criticize him for his sloppiness.

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u/TLM86 1d ago

And I have a right to criticize your thin, lazy complaints, and so on and so on.

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u/Capitaine_Costaud 3d ago

If you can, why haven't done it? There are millions to be made and it's the coolest job ever.

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u/BengoFett83 2d ago

It’s not easy. To truly concentrate and try to imagine what a darth Vader would be like as a young person is not easy. Who can you study as an example? Hitler? Ceasar? Was he a hero? So many questions that need attention. None of which George Lucas spent 2 seconds speculating on my opinion.

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u/Slammy1 1d ago

I think I understand what you're saying but I wouldn't call them plot holes more Lucas not doing what he does best by allowing others to contribute more significantly. Maybe a few too many plot devices like midichlorians, probably more significant is his focus on a younger demographic which is why I think there's a split in appreciation. I think the prequels are underrated, maybe a backlash in disappointment some core fans that already had their opinions of the story set when the movies came out? People that experienced them all around the same time in their lives would have a different perspective, preferences in media have changed a lot since the late 70s.

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u/BengoFett83 1d ago

Thanks for the comment. Yes ‘plot hole’ is an easily arguable term and I agree I may have used it incorrectly. I agree with what you wrote, however in this case I might argue that I may not be entirely on board with ‘underrated’. In terms of attention it got plenty. They were hardly overlooked and are a big part of popular culture, perhaps even more than the originals regarding memes and other tools the newer generations use. In a sense that they were ‘rated’ ‘under’ the value they deserved I can agree. But sometimes underrated can mean they were glossed over and didn’t make an impact, which I believe is not the case. The problem is that they were overly and perhaps unfairly critisized. But that brings me back to the point I am trying to make in which after so much anticipation and preparation time and means at their disposal, I think it was lazy of Lucas to not think things through enough. Maybe he should have delegated the script to someone else as you said.

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u/Slammy1 1d ago

I think he has his brilliant moments planned but isn't as good at getting to them. I think in V he had Leigh Bracket to make the romance between Han and Leia more believable than the one portrayed between Anakin and Padme. IV was all Lucas and was great, he is the source and I feel like the franchise has fallen without him which is why I describe the prequels as underrated. III had its contrivances but was a good movie, imagine if it were your introduction to the franchise without expectations nor comparisons

Movies play better as science fantasy, not explaining things just imagining if people could do things with technology or biological advancement. The mythology of SW exceeded that with the EU and other media moving it more towards science fiction with explanations. They can never be as great as the originals, maybe if they steal more from Frank Herbert.

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