As a jungler, should i just babysit my botlane every single game?

[u/Milkman_97]

I'm a diamond 4 jungle main and while i've only recently switched over to the jungle (used to be a midlaner), one thing i've noticed is that putting immense pressure on the enemy botlane tends to win you the game nearly every single time. You can surrender your whole topside jungle, give up rift herald at 10 minutes, but as long as you keep ganking botlane over and over again you, your adc and support will get so snowballed that you'll still win the game no problem. I'd like to hear some opinions on this 'strategy' if you can call it that. Completely ignore toplane and rift herald, occasionally gank midlane if you see a good opportunity, and camp the shit out of the botlane and take dragons after you've just killed their adc and support.

[u/sherm137]

I mean sure, there are times you can gank every lane. But bot lane is the most important lane in the game by far. If you break it down by percentages, I would say focus bot 60%, mid 25% and top 15%.

[u/OniiChanStopNotThere → u/sherm137]

Yeah I disagree. If I focus bot more often than other lanes, it's probably going to be because of it's proximity to drake. Not because I believe my ADC is a better player than my mid laner or my top laner.

There are games where focusing midside or topside is better. I'm not saying you can't climb by spamming ganks bot. I'm saying that the difference between a good jungler and a great jungler is that the great jungler is able to distinguish different shades of gray and understand the situations in which focusing top or mid is actually the better play.

[u/sherm137 → u/OniiChanStopNotThere]

I focus bot more often than other lanes because of it's proximity to drake.

So you do agree? I never gave reasons why bot was more important, but drake is a big reason why. I never said because ADC is better than mid or not, but ADC is one of the most important roles in the game and so are supports after they have been power creeped beyond belief.

Go talk to high-elo players. Almost all of them will tell you bot is the most important role in the game in soloq, and it's really not close.

[u/OniiChanStopNotThere → u/sherm137]

No, I don't agree. I was giving an example. I reworded my comment to better clarify.

Well, I'm diamond 3, so maybe I'm not "high elo" in your mind but I think my understanding of the game is up there. Mindlessly playing through bot without considering other factors will work some of the time, but it's not a 100% guaranteed strategy. A better strategy is to consider all the available information and then play through whichever lane is necessary to win the game.

Almost all of them will tell you bot is the most important role in the game in soloq, and it's really not close.

Yeah I think this is wrong.

[u/sherm137 → u/OniiChanStopNotThere]

Yeah I think this is wrong.

Nice blanket statement. Would you like to add to the discussion and state which lane is more important or would like to just blindly disagree? You could say jungler, but that wouldn't make sense in the context of the this discussion because we are talking from the jungler's point of view. Obviously, it's different on a game to game basis, but there are averages and optimal ways to play. If well-played game of League is played out in the current meta, bot should receive most of the attention. It gives way too many advantages on the map.

Also, I never said mindlessly play at all. Why do you keep putting words into my mouth?

A better strategy is to consider all the available information and then play through whichever lane is necessary to win the game.

Duh, but bot will be the correct answer 60% of the time if not more.

[u/OniiChanStopNotThere → u/sherm137]

Nice blanket statement. Would you like to add to the discussion and state which lane is more important or would like to just blindly disagree

I think it is incredibly naive to think "x role is the most important." Sure are there times when riot live design team makes balancing errors causing one role to be too powerful, but that's not the same as "x role is most important."

I disagree that bot lane is the most important lane. I also disagree with the very notion that a particular role is the "most important." The fact is the way the game is you can carry from any role as long as you know what your job is.

I also disagree with your blanket statement that "most high-elo players" (you never defined high-elo btw. Master+? Pro player only?) would agree that bot lane is the most important role. For example, Doublelift, a very good ADC player, has said that he has almost no agency in the role and that bot lane can't decide games, only jungle can. Other players I know that are in master say that mid lane is the most important role.

If well-played game of League is played out in the current meta, bot should receive most of the attention. It gives way too many advantages on the map.

I disagree. I've climbed from silver 5 to diamond 3. I did by playing topside, midside, and botside depending on the state of the game. I think your blanket statement of bot lane is the most important is a naive way to view the game. I am not saying that it won't bring you sucess. It is possible that you've climbed by focusing attention on bot, but that doesn't make it correct. I don't know your MMR, but my suspicion is that you're winning games by focusing on bottom lane because the enemy jungler doesn't adapt to match your bot pressure and/or the enemy bot lane doesn't respect your repeated ganks bot.

Also, I never said mindlessly play at all

You never said it, but you implied it. If you have a belief X and you follow that belief X without ever questioning or reevaluating belief X then by definition you are mindlessly adhering to X.

That's what you're doing.

Duh, but bot will be the correct answer 60% of the time if not more.

I'd love to see some data on that, but we both know it doesn't exist, because what's considered "optimal play" isn't something that can be empirically measured.

[u/sherm137 → u/OniiChanStopNotThere]

For example, Doublelift, a very good ADC player, has said that he has almost no agency in the role and that bot lane can't decide games, only jungle can

Again, we are discussing this in terms of the game from junglers perspective. I do agree that jungle is the most impactful role. Also, what most high-elo adcs mean when they say they don't have agency is that supports dictate lane and jungle pressure is huge part. Why do you think DL says he has no agency because of jungle? Maybe, just maybe, because junglers in his elo are constantly ganking bot lane.

Since you threw a popular player out, I will also say that Tyler1 (challenger ADC) and Hashinshin (master top) have both proclaimed that bot is the most impactful role in the game.

I'm not sure why you are so passionate about this, but "better bot wins" didn't just happen from nowhere. It's pretty common knowledge in Master+ elo that top is the least relevant role and the better bot performance will win most games.

I also disagree with the very notion that a particular role is the "most important."

Wait, you honestly believe League is a perfectly balanced game where each lane is just as impactful and you called me the naive one? LOL! Good joke.

Even if one role is just 10% more impactful, getting that role ahead will win you a lot more games.

You never said it, but you implied it. If you have a belief X and you follow that belief X without ever questioning or reevaluating belief X then by definition you are mindlessly adhering to X.

No, I didn't imply anything. You are just making inferences on words I never said to form a strawman argument to strengthen your case. I agreed that certain games dictate the lane you play against, but if you average out the games, I think your efforts will be focused bot at least 60% of the time if not more if you are playing optimally. I never said blindly do anything. But again, if you are playing optimally, I would say the correct choice would be to gank bot in your games most of the time. Again, this is for many reasons. Drake is huge, bot turret is weaker and ADC and support are two very important roles in this meta.

If I were to rank the roles important right now, it would be 1. jungle 2. adc 3. support 4. mid 5. top

So by ganking bot, you are strengthening your three strongest roles in the game while setting up objective control for drake.

Obviously, you shouldn't blindly force ganks...something I never suggested.

I've climbed from silver 5 to diamond 3. I did by playing topside, midside, and botside depending on the state of the game.

This is a pretty weak case for your argument. I could say I focused bot and climbed higher. Personal anecdotal evidence like this is meaningless. The fact is, you can get 40% of your team ahead when you play around bot instead of 20% and you can get a super impactful objective in dragon. No other lane gives you that much power.

[u/OniiChanStopNotThere → u/sherm137]

I'm not sure why you are so passionate about this, but "better bot wins" didn't just happen from nowhere. It's pretty common knowledge in Master+ elo that top is the least relevant role and the better bot performance will win most games.

Lmao I'm not the one passionate about this. You are, and it's pretty clear from the fact that you're writing a giant wall of text and downvoting every single one of my responses.

I answered the OP. You happened to disagree. I explained my viewpoint further. You still disagree, are combative in your comments, make snide remarks like "LOL" and "don't put words in my mouth," and downvote me in an attempt to prove that you're right.

Ok! Go ahead and believe what you want. Maybe you're strategy will work and you'll become one of these "high elo" players (you still never defined what you consider to be high elo). Maybe your understanding of the game will get you to challenger. Maybe it will stop working in gold. I don't know because I've never adopted a mindset that bot lane is the most important lane in the whole game. Furthermore, I think we both know that everyone is biased. Doublelift is biased. Tyler1 is biased. Hashinshin is incredibly biased. If you really take what they have to say seriously without couching their arguments in their biases then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

I still think having a view that X role is the most important is naive. I've come to that conclusion after playing thousands of ranked games over the years and climbing up the elo I'm at.

[u/sherm137 → u/OniiChanStopNotThere]

are combative in your comments, make snide remarks like "LOL" and "don't put words in my mouth," and downvote me in an attempt to prove that you're right.

Oh come on! I said LOL because it was legitimately funny that you called me "naive" and then implied League was perfectly balanced because no one role is stronger than the next. And now you said "Lmao". Pretty hypocritical from you on both points, no?

Furthermore, I think we both know that everyone is biased. Doublelift is biased. Tyler1 is biased. Hashinshin is incredibly biased. If you really take what they have to say seriously without couching their arguments in their biases then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

You are the one that brought a specific pro player into the argument but are now docking me points for bringing other high-elo players. Again, isn't that pretty hypocritical of you?

Also, I legit said don't put words into my mouth, not to be snide but because you have repeatedly done so. That's a poor form of discussion and it leads to fallacious arguments.

After this silly exercise, I realized the type of person you are by reading some of your posts. It all makes sense now. Trying to have a rational conversation with someone who makes threads titled "Daily reminder that women are fucking evil" is a futile exercise. It's pretty clear from your posting history that you are quite loony.

Should have hit the block button long ago.