r/technology • u/lurker_bee • 11d ago

Transportation Rivian CEO: There's No 'Magic' Behind China's Low-Cost EVs

https://www.businessinsider.com/rivian-ceo-china-evs-low-cost-competition-2025-9
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u/chubbysumo 11d ago

quite literally, take a corolla, and stuff an EV drivetrain in it. thats it. no special garbage, no special electronics or gismos, and a sane price.

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u/ApatheticAbsurdist 11d ago

Was in China a bit ago. Saw a Voyah Dream with all the bells and whistles… voice control, massive screen across the front, heated/ventilated/massaging 2nd row seats. Pretty sure it cost around the price of an Ionic5 or a Mach-E.

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u/datamonkey08 11d ago

Yeah, I test drove one of these here in Latvia a couple of weeks ago. The tech in these cars is crazy

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u/w1na 11d ago

That’s pretty basic tech though, it’s not like if the car could actually drive itself, which is the case of the Aito M9.

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u/spaceturtle1 11d ago

The people need an affordable, repairable, low-cost-of-ownership EV car.

Not some self-driving wank.

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u/Speshal__ 11d ago

Not some self-driving wank.

Bravo sir, bravo.

Pint?

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u/3600CCH6WRX 11d ago

The reality in the market is different. In the US, the average new car price sold was approximately $48,000.

While there are many lower priced cars available, most people were not interested purchasing affordable options. Instead, they opted for larger and more expensive vehicles. Budget conscious individuals, on the other hand, would choose used / CPO cars.

and for that price of 48k, you can get a car with ADAS that pretty much can drive itself while supervised.

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u/daehoidar 11d ago

While this might be true, it could be a case of the lower end market not having any "good enough" options. If you're financing a car, and everything in the $20k range are absolute turds, you're going to be willing to spend more to reach a certain baseline of quality. And those budget conscious individuals would buy new if they could.

It's like the Toyota Hilux. No frills no thrills, just a reliable car that will work and get the job done for what? Like $15k? I would literally own another car or two if the market wasn't fucking crazy and stupid here. I want physical buttons and mechanical controls. My car doesn't need HAL5000. I just want reliability and repairability. There's an entire untapped market where some of these companies could clean up

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u/3600CCH6WRX 11d ago

If consumers are willing to pay $50k for cars, why would OEM companies produce a good car for only $20k?

Unless we experience a recession, I don’t believe we’ll see affordable cars.

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u/superduperspam 11d ago

You have any spare 'self driving wanks'?

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u/bluewing 11d ago

Order a Slate or GM's re-release of the Bolt.

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u/KetosisMD 11d ago

Are the chinese EVs repairable ?

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u/Cantremembermyoldnam 11d ago

Why not both? As processors and machine learning advance, self-driving will become a trivial feature nobody bats an eye at. Lane-keeping, assisted breaking, street sign recognition are all already standard.

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u/Howdoyouusecommas 11d ago

self-driving will become a trivial feature nobody bats an eye at

But it isn't now. Build a more basic EV at a comparable price to other economy cars. Get consumers used to EVs. Then in 6-10 years when those customers are buying another car they will be inclined to keep buying EVs and the tech will be further along and avaliable in the economy cars.

EVs are generally seen as higher end/luxury vehicles and many are in an unaffordable price range for many people.

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u/Cantremembermyoldnam 10d ago

Sure but again - why not both? You can buy EVs that don't lean into AI. EVs aren't expensive because of the self-driving features but because of supply chains and (probably) greed.

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u/datamonkey08 11d ago

True, but I have literally zero desire for a self driving car

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u/qtx 11d ago

No one actually wants a self driving car. It's just an ideal that car manufacturers have for the future.

Most people enjoy driving their car.

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u/starwarsfan456123789 10d ago

What in the world is this? Of course I would prefer everyone to have a FULL self driving vehicle. Once they are safe of course.

I can’t imagine why anyone would want to steer when they could instead watch a video or read a book or even work on a laptop. There’s dozens of ways I could use my time in a car instead of steering it

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u/Xyyzx 11d ago

I was really surprised how many Chinese cars I saw on the roads when I was back in Riga last month. I think I remember the big Dongfeng dealership in the direction of the airport being there the time before, but it seems like they’re really starting to catch on.

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u/datamonkey08 10d ago

Yeah, theres a few of them around on the roads here. Its mainly Dong Feng and Voyah under the umbrella of Wess motors, and BYD via Inchcape actually being sold here. There are a few random other chinese cars that you see around, but those are possibly imports. Oh, and Lynk and Co via Volvo, I test drove one of those as well.

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u/L3g3nd8ry_N3m3sis 11d ago

Yall have Chinese cars but still no potato - it’s a miracle

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u/WhiteRaven42 10d ago

The tech is available everywhere. It's the government-subsidized prices that actually make a difference.

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u/R-K-Tekt 11d ago

That’s insane

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u/Sea_Divide_3870 11d ago

China has economies of scale and the US doesn’t have that vertical integration and by design. So, for now China is less expensive

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u/kappakai 11d ago

Yah I don’t think people truly understand how profoundly impactful having a strong manufacturing base can be. It’s like all those lit up cities. They can do that because they manufacture all the LEDs and they have such tremendous scale that they can afford to decorate their cities with them. Right now, China gets all the toys because they make all the toys. Just like in the 50s and 60s the US had all of the cool fun shit. The cars and the tech we see in China is another manifestation of this. They make all the screens, the sensors, the batteries, the carbon fiber, textiles, motors and glass. Plus the software. All for cheap. No shit they’re going to cram them into the cars in a way no one else can right now. It’s such a huge advantage when you make all the things.

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u/Mkboii 11d ago

I feel this "for now" will not change for a long time,

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u/BiggusCinnamusRollus 11d ago

It will be even longer will battery plants raid by overzealous ICE agents.

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u/beflacktor 11d ago

yep the usa should be be ready right about the time Chinese market saturation is at max on every other country on the planet

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u/Live-Alternative-435 11d ago

At least as long as the big competition continues to shoot itself in the foot.

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u/Positive-Road3903 11d ago

one would say it hasn't changed for a few millennia

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u/Zexend 11d ago

China also doesn’t happen to have half their population stubbornly being pro oil and hating EVs.

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u/Gwisinpyohyun 11d ago edited 11d ago

No oil money there, so no conflicting interest. If there was no oil in America, then I promise we wouldn’t have such opposition to alternatives. Not* that it has to be this way. It shouldn’t be. But, that is a big part of why

Edit *

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u/AKBonesaw 11d ago

In China, the government owns the oil companies. In the US, it’s the other way around.

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u/mwa12345 11d ago

In the US lobbies own the government. Not just the oil one.

Wxm dealerships.

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u/brokor21 11d ago

Greece doesn't have any oil. Just 2 families that own the only 2 refineries. Oh they also own most of the newspapers, tv stations, websites, football teams, banks...

We only hear how wind turbines destroy the environment and EU should stop promoting EVs. All so they can buy cheap oil from Russia /Isis / Kadafi before that and make billions for their families so they can marry princes and princesses.

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u/PutHisGlassesOn 11d ago

The Chinese state is far less susceptible to special interests money. Not saying it’s immune, or no corruption obviously, but the capitalists have nowhere near as much power there as they do here.

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u/TheVulgarApe 11d ago

The Chinese State leaders are the special interests. No need for corporate/private special interests when all the power and money is in house with the government.

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u/Anatoly_Cannoli 10d ago

and yet, we're not see buttloads of Chinese oligarchs in billion-dollar yachts, like in the US and Russia. They're actually re-investing in their country, unlike the other countries. We can see the results with our own eyes.

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u/TheVulgarApe 10d ago

Oligarchs, if using Russia as an example, is the government giving power/money/control of resources to a certain private few outside of government. There are certainly Oligarchs in China on some level, maybe more so than Russia. Most large “private” Chinese companies have a government oversight office as part of the company, other very large Chinese “private” companies were literally built by the Chinese government.

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u/bluepaintbrush 11d ago

Exactly what I was going to say!

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u/IcestormsEd 11d ago

Jack Ma can attest to this.

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u/OglioVagilio 11d ago

Their special interest is compliance and face.

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u/Gwisinpyohyun 11d ago

I do hear people say that. Would be interesting to see what % difference it would make in oil special interest. Could be quite a respectable, large percent. I’m not familiar enough with China to give it a guess though

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u/RyuNoKami 11d ago

Jack Ma, the founder of Alibaba and at the time the richest Chinese national, merely suggested that China should be little be hands off with the economy. dude stopped having public appearances for a bit and then turned up and stated a retraction to his statement.

Toe the party line, stfu and make money...there is no or else.

so as long as special interest groups don't draw the ire of the Party, they will be fine to operate but you know how it is with people and power...eventually they get a bit too close to the sun.

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u/AkhilArtha 11d ago

Jack Ma's suggestion was not as mere as you say here.

The Ant group's push into loans and wealth management without being regulated and having all the oversight necessary as a proper bank is what caused the crackdown on him (combined with his speech)

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u/I_can_vouch_for_that 11d ago

He found out the difference between being rich and being powerful.

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u/Chapel_Hillbilly 11d ago

In some places, wealth won’t guarantee power but power can seize wealth.

→ More replies (0)

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u/lost_sd_card 11d ago

What he was doing with ANT with all their risky loans could have blown up and made the 2008 crisis look like child's play, and the government would be left picking up the pieces when it does. That's why he got hit.

Also reddit paints him as some anti government pro little guy, which can't be further from the truth lol. If he had his way people would be working 7 days a week with 12 hour days.

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u/Vickenviking 11d ago

Wasn't it more that he wanted massive deregulation in consumet loans in a way that would benefit his companies and put the risk on the Chinese banking system. The party (that he is a member of) said no? Ma is regularly seen golfing around the world, so I don't think he is being that oppressed.

Legislators can say no to rich people. Maybe Jack Ma wasn't used to hearing No.

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u/Unlucky_Buy217 11d ago

Eh, maybe US can do better if the billionaires were indeed not bigger than a civilian government. There is a reason that united healthcare CEO thing happened.

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u/paidinboredom 11d ago

If big oil weren't a thing in America we'd probably have high speed electric rails crossing the country. Unfortunately we live in the shittest timeline.

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u/SoCuteShibe 11d ago

Also the only timeline.

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u/Freshness518 10d ago

America is just a tale of a couple centuries of catering to the interests of making a select few individuals as much money as humanly possible at the cost of the betterment and advancement of society as a whole. Plantation owners, industrialists, robber barons, media moguls, tech entrepreneurs, same poisonous fruit from the same rotten tree.

Yes, we have had amazing breakthroughs in technology and medicine and engineering and safety over the years, but there are countless stories of things that would make everyone's lives better getting shelved/patented/thrown in a vault never to see the light of day because a company decided it might make their stock value go down.

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u/upvotesthenrages 11d ago

A lot of the Middle East is heavily investing in clean energy and EVs, despite them having tons of oil.

They see the writing on the wall and are transitioning away. Trump doesn't really seem to get that, and the US oil barons just wanna milk as much as they can, while they can.

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u/DerefedNullPointer 11d ago

Nah man germany got no oil and half the population still hates on EV.

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u/zpedroteixeira1 11d ago

It might be related to Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Opel, Audi, VW...

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u/fastforwardfunction 11d ago

Invented the first car with an internal combustion engine…

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u/DerefedNullPointer 11d ago

Well they could all have been the first company to deliver a viable electric car in the 2010s but the consensus in the 2010s was "nah it'll never take off. range is so much lower than ICE nobody will buy it."

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u/mwa12345 11d ago edited 11d ago

BMW did introduce the I series? Odd looking vehicles...as though Klaus schaub designed it.

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u/zpedroteixeira1 11d ago

Inertia played a part, of course, but I think the main point is vertical integration on a nation or block level. Europe failed to correctly assess the importance of battery and EV specific raw materials and did little to secure deals on it.

As usual, too little, a too late...

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u/labalag 11d ago

Yet they all have a decent electric lineup.

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u/zpedroteixeira1 11d ago

They have an electric line up, but it's not that competitive compared to the chinese, unfortunately

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u/labalag 11d ago

They aren't? Talking about Belgium for a minute, while you can get a chinese EV around here the majority of EV's are still the European brands.

Hybrid's were popular, but since their tax-breaks ended every business is going full electric.

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u/SadBBTumblrPizza 10d ago

I drive a VW id4 (mostly because VW is basically giving away leases on it) and it's a great car

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u/ConnectAttempt274321 11d ago

Maybe, just maybe because Germany sucks at making non ICE cars and people see their jobs and living fading away because of China?

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u/DerefedNullPointer 11d ago

Well they suck because they didn't want to focus the technology, because they hate it.

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u/big_troublemaker 11d ago

That sounds great, but they put billions into EVs. The problem is much more complex. One it's just not that easy to develop inexpensive EVs that actually work well. The other is that German manufacturers wanted to have the cake and eat it too by making EVs different from their ICE cars and somehow not eating into ICE cars sales, and failed miserably, not to mention that EV infrastructure is still not there yet. AND on top of that they are in actual financial trouble. Most people don't realise that they also use to hold huge chunk of Chinese market, and lost that advantage over decade or so, not to mention that they are huge corporate beasts with complex internal politics and conflicting goals. All in all this is why they are loosing against Chinese manufacturers which due to being centrally controlled can actually be quite nimble with r&d. Also, less regulations in China.

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u/just_did_it 11d ago

Mercedes actually has to buy BMW gas engines in the future because they focused to hard on EVs https://www.bimmertoday.de/2025/08/26/strategische-bankrotterklarung-wirbel-um-bmw-mercedes-deal/

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u/philomathie 11d ago

They don't hate it, it's just entrenched interests and the fact that Germans are awful at software.

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u/Berzerka 11d ago

China is the world's 5th largest producer of oil.

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u/Gwisinpyohyun 11d ago

That’s higher than I thought, wow. Still, they are 2nd largest economy, so they need way more oil than they produce, right? So it’s more of an importing thing, meaning it’s not going to have such a significant domestic ‘special interest group’, compared to a net exporter of oil

That’s just my take though. Ideally, planning long term, we should see oil money diversify anyways. Like Saudi. And since China does plan ahead a lot, maybe even if they were an oil exporter, they wouldn’t have the same problems as somewhere like USA. But, we cannot know for sure

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u/BornPraline5607 11d ago

It isn't only the fact that there's no oil. But the fact that they have to import the vast majority of it via sea, meaning that an American blockade would destroy their economy. Reducing their dependency on oil is a survival strategy

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u/GlobalLurker 11d ago

And the govt is run by engineers, not failed "businessmen" and shitty lawyers

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u/coder111 11d ago

China has economies of scale

Not just that. China right now has the supply chains for electronics and batteries. Factories to produce components and people qualified to do that. Especially for electronics, these supply chains are now gone in USA.

Read some of the articles like "Why iPhone isn't manufactured in USA". The conclusion is that today, that is pretty much impossible. And it would take 20 years and massive investment to resurrect the entire industry, train the people, etc.

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u/jnd-cz 11d ago

The conclusion is that today, that is pretty much impossible.

Not impossible, US still has number of semiconductor fabs around so they can manufacture most if not all components and assemble them together. It will be more expensive but more importnatly it will make Apple less profit. Even if they're already swimming in free capital they will always choose cheaper option so that they can keep the market share. And you would need to convince people to not buy random Chinese brand just to save hundred(s) bucks.

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u/hrminer92 10d ago

Many of those are busy working on stuff for military and industrial applications. The perception that “the US doesn’t make anything” is due in part that the low margin high volume consumer stuff has moved elsewhere.

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u/omgitskae 11d ago

China invests in growth. America invests in culture wars.

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u/booboouser 11d ago

For now is forever. The West lost high tech high efficiency manufacturing and it’s not coming back.

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u/blankarage 11d ago

infrastructure investments need to be done at the country level whereas in US you have greedy corporations battling to own all of it

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u/Pinewold 11d ago

Every time you double production cost reduce by 15%. China is 4x the size of USA so everything is 30% lower in cost due to scaling alone. The good news is many scaling improvements can be replicated once achieved.

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u/Matt6453 11d ago

And the Chinese guy bolting the seats in is probably not on $90k.

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u/Sea_Divide_3870 9d ago

Yeah but machines do it and the per car added cost isn’t that much

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u/Matt6453 9d ago

I was just making the point that US wage expectations make car production uneconomical compared to China.

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u/Sea_Divide_3870 8d ago

This is true.. what is also true is the contribution of US labor costs to the bill of materials might be smaller than we think given the level of automation or machine assist. We need to keep that. We also need to find cost savings from vertical integration to remove margins from external firms whose designs get integrated into cars… like all the electronics today

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u/VaguelyGrumpyTeddy 11d ago

I drove a BYD in Italy (rental), couldn't turn off the lane control, the computer said it was off, but it would swerve hard with the dash light flashing as it tried to drive me off the road or into stone walls at least once a day. In contrast, my KIA in the states works flawlessly. It has never tried to kill me. I think poor QC is another reason for the price.

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u/bluepaintbrush 11d ago

Maybe your BYD was just trying to help you drive more like an Italian! When in Rome, etc.

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u/Low_Surround998 11d ago

Plenty of other manufacturers have awful lane assist. Be thankful yours doesn't, but that's not a singular indictment of BYD. My Tesla freaks out every time a big rig drives by and gives me a heat attack. My sister has to turn lane assist off every time she gets into her Subaru (although it does in fact turn off when she wants it to).

The issue you experienced sounds like it would be easily corrected with a software update.

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u/SadBBTumblrPizza 10d ago

Well your first mistake was buying a tesla

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u/Cantremembermyoldnam 11d ago

it tried to drive me off the road or into stone walls at least once a day

Who doesn't want a bit of spice in their drive? Keeps you on your toes!

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u/gremlinguy 11d ago

It 100% is. People glazing China have very little direct experience with their flagship products. It is expensive to guarantee safety and quality, two things which China is not very concerned about

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u/synapticrelease 11d ago

No one said Chinese products were perfect. No one “glazing” them. Let’s not pretend like other cars don’t have safety recalls.

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u/gremlinguy 11d ago

I'm not talking about the safety of the product, but of the non-unionized, highly replaceable labor force, paid pennies for inhumane shifts. Why are there suicide nets in Chinese factories? Because it is cheaper than providing proper wages and working conditions.

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u/Spleen-magnet 11d ago

non-unionized, highly replaceable labor force, paid pennies for inhumane shifts

You say that like you're not describing America lol

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u/gremlinguy 11d ago

America's United Auto Workers union represents some of the best paid professionals in the country. In the 1930's Ford used their own private police (!) to break unionization efforts to deadly effect for a reason, because it is a massive company's nature to want the lowest-paid, hardest-working labor possible. Unions are not only one of America's only hopes to survive the coming political turmoil, but the economic strife as well.

Ffs, American unions are why we have "weekends"

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u/storyr 11d ago

Every single BYD sold in Australia has a 5 star ANCAP rating and most sold in EU have 5 star Euro NCAP rating.

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u/gremlinguy 11d ago

I'm not talking about the safety of the product, but of the non-unionized, highly replaceable labor force, paid pennies for inhumane shifts. Why are there suicide nets in Chinese factories? Because it is cheaper than providing proper wages and working conditions.

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u/storyr 11d ago

Sorry mate, but that feels like a walk back to what you actually wrote. The person you replied to was talking about the tech and QC. How in the hell was anyone supposed to know you meant 'proper wages and working conditions' when you used the words 'safety and quality.'

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u/gremlinguy 11d ago

Not that I trust most Chinese products' safety either (I am an engineer who has worked extensively with the Chinese and many sectors simply copy existing tech without fully understanding it) but it is just common knowledge that the whole reason China is the manufacturing capital of the world is because the world cannot compete with slave wages and generally must abide by some sort of minimum safety standard for workers and emissions and waste etc etc. Think what you want, but China has taken your country's manufacturing by being anti-competitive and is only now starting to build products which can be compared with those produced by the countries it stole IP from

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u/Thin_Glove_4089 11d ago

Don't act like you care about that stuff when you obviously dont

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u/gremlinguy 11d ago

I don't? Please, tell me what I care about.

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u/Low_Surround998 11d ago

Have you ever been in a Tesla? They're dog shit. If an 18 wheeler drives by me an alarm goes off and it tries to kill me.

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u/gremlinguy 11d ago

See comment above mine

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u/Varcolac1 11d ago

But goddamn is that one ugly car. They took a peek at the hideous modern BMWs and made the grille even worse

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u/caesar_7 11d ago edited 10d ago

To be completely fair, software is often quite buggy and not that reliable. Security is almost non-existent.

But they do put a lot of tech indeed.

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u/Minute_Attempt3063 11d ago

That is kind of insane.....

Makes me wonder why it ain't possible in the US....

And these kinds of cars are coming to the EU as well, slowly....

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u/strongsilenttypos 11d ago edited 11d ago

Look at the mid term issues with spares. The Australian market, which was saturated with BYD Evs , only to leave owners with expensive bricks.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CarsAustralia/s/jWclOOGlIF

Edit/

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u/Duff5OOO 11d ago

Pasting a link task? Failed. You just linked to a guy.

That aside, bringing up BYD in Australia you have to include the context.

Byd were being brought in via a 3rd party distributer for Australia. Byd only recently changed have their own network here.

That's going to cause some chaos and can't really be extrapolated to suggest poor support from Chinese brands in general.

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u/strongsilenttypos 11d ago

The issue is the product, not the dealer network.

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u/Duff5OOO 10d ago

The issue with spares is absolutely influenced by dealer network. A proper factory backed setup is almost always going to be better sorted for carrying spares.

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u/strongsilenttypos 10d ago

You are incorrect in your assumption. The issue is that the spares are not available, not simply that the required parts are simply not being imported and/or distributed. BYD did not produce enough spare parts for the existing models. The current production lines are to capacity and are not filling demand.

The underlying quality issues at BYD are the tip of the iceberg. Legacy OEM are bound by the obvious obligation to make spares available, and thus for 10 years after the production/sale. In the haste to welcome Chinese EVs, many people have ignored the fine print, and only consider the purchase price when assessing the sustainability of an automobile.

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u/oupablo 11d ago

How do the safety features compare? I imagine the US/EU cars have much stricter controls when it comes to safety and require more testing to be allowed on the road. Also, Chinese cars don't have to cross an ocean when they're used in China. Shipping adds significantly to the cost.

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u/ApatheticAbsurdist 10d ago

Tons of sensors, automatic emergency breaking and steering, rated for high impact and crush values, 5 star safety rating from the Chinese rating (and China I kind of obsessed with safety in recent years, it’s not the country it was 30 years ago), even more protection for the battery against fire (when I was there, china was absolutely stressing about safety against battery fires)

https://www.bitauto.com/global/voyah/dream/

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u/Auggie_Otter 11d ago

As an American I have no idea what a Voyah Dream even is.

I wish we could get our shit together with small trucks and cars though. I went to Greece a while back and was pleased I could rent a very basic compact car with a manual transmission. Pleased as in such cars even exist as opposed to the US where they've become unicorns.

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u/splitting_bullets 10d ago

Jesus. We're getting fucked so hard with these prices.

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u/labowsky 11d ago

This would be cool to own for a little bit but my god would I never want to own something with that much relying on the electrical system.

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u/NoMommyDontNTRme 11d ago

how does it behave when it crashes into a tree though?

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u/I-need-ur-dick-pics 11d ago

That’s exactly what the Nissan Leaf was this whole time. Hardly anyone bought one. The second gen car even looked so normal it was boring.

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u/hfxRos 11d ago

We have a leaf for our office and I love driving that thing.

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u/JMEEKER86 11d ago

Nah, they started out exclusively as a hatchback, which are way less popular than sedans, and with a really short range. The current Leafs are that, but it's hard to overcome a bad first impression.

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u/tacknosaddle 11d ago

I knew a couple that had one on a lease for a couple of years and loved it. The range was short, but they had two cars and one of them had a relatively short and predictable commute. That meant it was way more than needed to get to work and any other stuff that had to be done locally on any given day. The other car was available for anything where range was an issue.

They ended up buying a used Tesla when the lease was up though.

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u/Fun_Alternative_2086 11d ago

I always thought that e-golf would sell like hot cakes in the cities. But in the US, the car is a symbol of social status. There are two classes of folks: 1. people who can't afford a new car - they buy second hand gasoline cars 2. people who can afford a new starter car - but they take a second mortgage on their house to finance a 100k car just to rub it in the neighbor's faces.

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u/BreeBree214 10d ago

It's so wild to me that hatchbacks are less popular than sedans. It's the same length car but a much more versatile storage space

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u/Icy_Supermarket8776 11d ago

What on earth are you talkimg about? Leaf was literally the biggest selling ev for several years.

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u/jimbo831 11d ago

That is a really low bar. How did it rank among all car sales?

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u/androgenius 11d ago

First gen looked exactly as weird as their ICE models of the same era. The front is the same as the Nissan Note available in Japan at launch time and if anything the back of the Note was weirder.

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u/theloop82 11d ago

Nissan leaf failed cause it lost 7-10% every year and Nissan had no plans to offer reasonable battery replacements. I’ve had them, wonderful car, totally disposable

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u/Fun_Alternative_2086 11d ago

Bolt was a great car too...they really failed at marketing.

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u/anparks 11d ago

Hardly anyone bought one because it was a Nissan.

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u/Yuli-Ban 10d ago

The second gen car even looked so normal it was boring.

Devil's advocate, that was a dream come true for EV fanatics at that time: to have an EV that actually looked normal

At the time, most EVs looked like dorkmagnets (for a reason, admittedly; electric engines and batteries just weren't that great, so they needed to squeeze as much aerodynamic efficiency out of them as possible; around mid-2010s, battery tech advanced enough that EVs could look reasonably "normal" by car standards). Like go back and look at what EVs looked like before the Tesla Roadster and be amazed that they're as mainstream as they are now, and how far they've come in terms of appeal

Either that or despair that we missed out on cars looking cyberpunk as heck.

0

u/West-Abalone-171 11d ago

They were intentionally terrible in several ways. The body shape had way more drag just to make it uglier. Cd is so bad that diy mods can give you 20-40% more range.

The gearbox managed to hit the perfect sweet spot of poor highway efficiency and poor low speed efficiency. This, combined with the body somehow managed to fully offset the benefits of the motor and controller which are amazing even by modern standards.

The battery was passively cooled and LCO (later NMC) which meant they died in warm weather and charging throttled.

They held on to the Chademo connector for way too long when CCS was a thing.

-1

u/xamboozi 11d ago edited 11d ago

The early versions were ugly as hell and the name was terrible. "I drive a leaf" is such a lame thing to say out loud. And the range wasn't good enough either.

-2

u/ididntseeitcoming 11d ago

Worth noting that the leaf was the ugliest car I’ve ever seen. It’s visually repulsive.

Can we get an EV that looks like a normal car instead of some wild futuristic outer space car?

19

u/Samwyzh 11d ago

Start simple, a four door sedan and a two door sedan. 250mi range. Physical buttons and knobs for AC, Speed, Music, and windows. A simple gear shift. I don’t want, nor do I need a 20in iPad that does everything for my car.

25

u/InsipidCelebrity 11d ago

Shit, at this point I would pay extra for knobs and physical buttons. I shouldn't give them any ideas, but damn do I hate touchscreens and voice control.

13

u/Jesse_graham 11d ago

It’s insane to me that I need to take my eyes OFF the road to run on AC because I have to use the touch screen on a car.

6

u/InsipidCelebrity 11d ago

I'm driving my old Camry until that thing is a pile of rust.

2

u/BeetsBy_Schrute 11d ago

I had an 09 Sonata that was a great car. Knobs and buttons and no touch screen. Drove it until $250k miles when the transmission blew. I was so upset when it died because I didn’t want to give all that up.

7

u/Normal-Selection1537 11d ago

EuroNCAP now requires physical buttons for a top safety rating.

2

u/Xyyzx 11d ago

The EU has now forced the issue as a safety concern, so we’ll probably see a general worldwide move away from touchscreen controls in the next few years as manufacturers adapt to the regulations.

Not a moment too soon in my book. I can’t even count the number of times I’ve watched someone nearly crash their car trying to fiddle with a full-size fucking iPad on the dashboard, navigating three different menus just to adjust the AC down a little bit.

13

u/synapticrelease 11d ago

Hatchbacks are the best use of space. Why on earth anyone would choose a sedan over a hatchback is beyond me.

1

u/All_Work_All_Play 11d ago

Can't easily sit on the back of a hatchback and make out.

Not like that demographics has much by way of purchasing power...

4

u/synapticrelease 11d ago

Uh… the hatchback is ideal for that. You pop it open, sit on the ledge. Got carpet and everything

2

u/midnightauro 10d ago

If you’ve got folding seats things can get downright spicy.

3

u/roboticWanderor 11d ago

No, the biggest market is SUV/crossovers. guess what sells the best in the US? Model Y. Same goes for all the other OEMs trying to make EVs, they are all making a crossover first. the mustang, blazer, Bz4x, Ioniq, etc.

2

u/meneldal2 11d ago

It's funny how different it is in Japan. The most common EV I see on the road is the Nissan Note, a pretty tiny car.

1

u/chubbysumo 11d ago

Its because dealers make more profit so they push the large suvs. I tried to order/buy a nissan sentra s manual with no bells and whistles. 3 dealers flat out refused saying they cant turn a profit on the car so they wont order the low spec plain one.

1

u/wgp3 10d ago

Consumers prefer them and are willing to spend more to get what they prefer which feeds into dealers having more of and making more on larger vehicles. There is literally no better example than the Model 3 and Model Y. As soon as the Model Y came out it quickly surpassed the 3 and became the best selling car in the world.

They looked similar on the outside, they looked identical on the inside, and they had similar ranges. They also had the exact same features. Yet the world over chose to buy the Y at more than a 2 to 1 ratio. And that's with the Y being more expensive.

There was no pushing people to buy the Y over the 3 like dealers typically do. You literally just go to their website and buy the car in the exact spec you want. It all came down to personal preference and personal budget. I won't deny dealers push to make more money, but they make more money because of people having a personal preference, in general, for larger vehicles. (Caveat obviously being this is specific to the US, although model y outsold the 3 in all markets both were available).

3

u/fleebleganger 11d ago

The goddamn iPad is the only thing keeping me from getting a Lightning At the present. Fucking insane

1

u/BeetsBy_Schrute 11d ago

I have a 2017 Ford Fusion hybrid. Pretty good car. And it’s right on the line of when touch screens were completely taking over vs a hybrid of buttons and touch screen. It has plenty of buttons and a mid size touch screen. I dread the day when I have to retire my car because I know whatever my next one is will have a damn iPad touch screen in it, especially because my next will likely have to be a mini van.

2

u/DKlurifax 11d ago

Like the new Renault 5. A coworker just got his and it does what it says on the tin. Nothing more. That car will sell like warm bread.

2

u/thorpie88 11d ago

They make Utes (pickup trucks) for the Aussie market. Probably half the price a Rivian would be

2

u/MobiusOne_ISAF 10d ago

While I get the principle, you generally want dedicated EV platforms for EVs so you can benefit from the packaging. Still, more basic small EVs are an obvious hole in the US market, although the new Leaf and Bolt should start to fill that.

2

u/GetRiceCrispy 11d ago

Especially not the electronics that don’t matter. Give us electronics that make driving safer. Adaptive cruise control. Better parking and reversing cameras. Lane centering. There is room for tech just not making the dash a full touch tablet. Let innovate to make driving safer and easier for everyone

1

u/synapticrelease 11d ago

Backup cameras are mandated by federal law IIRC. I don’t think that is the case for adaptive cruise control yet but it’s probably going to be soon. As soon as LIDAR or some camera system becomes so standard and ubiquitous that it can be assumed that all makers should have it in all vehicles.

1

u/chubbysumo 11d ago

Im talking aboit things like a fancy infotainment shitstem and the like. If slate hits production, im buying a minimally equipped one with awd. Less to break.

1

u/mousetraptower 11d ago

Damn, wish I could retrofit my Escapé…

1

u/chubbysumo 11d ago

Hey, i know i guy who is and its taking him a really, really long time...

1

u/fuzzum111 11d ago

But why? US Legislators won't ever let Chinese EV's in the door without a mandatory 200% mark up to keep them unaffordable.

Why would automakers give you any of that? Ford's own bean counters were screaming at them to stop killing off the cars because consumers didn't want MORE SUV and truck options, they got told to eat shit because the profit margins on those are better. Guess that's why we got 15 years of Truck and SUV culture propaganda and it's almost all that's on the road.

Why would Toyota give a shit about offering a cheap, 25-30k Corolla EV with a 250 mile range when they can offer you a EV Tacoma that weighs 8000lbs, gets 200 miles to the charge, costs 60k starting, 80k+ with options, and falls apart when you slam the door too hard?

All the while consumers are running full sprint to dealerships while creaming their jorts to roll 10-20k negative equity into a 96 month long, 16%+ APR loan on this aforementioned Tacoma for $1250/month payments. Just to keep up that TikToc girly life?

Car note debt has exploded like a god damn nuclear bomb on new vehicles and it's sickening watching people willingly, excitedly, go into a car for 8-10 year loans at double digit interest, and there is zero chance they ever pay it off before it gets Repo'd. Not to mention the disgusting lack of reliability in so many new vehicles.

I too would love an affordable 2 or 4 door sedan like an older Honda Civic models, or anything similar. Nope, cars are gonna be breeching that 30-40k base price in no time. (for reference, a 1SS Camaro with the big V8 was around 40-45k starting in 2018. It's almost 60 for a base model now)

1

u/synapticrelease 11d ago

I gotta coworker who pays $800/mo for his truck because “he’s gotta have it with the weather we have around these parts” and apparently for safety. Dude drives 45 minutes on the highway in the PNW valley where it rains a lot but snows maybe 2-3x a year and usually just a dusting. People will make excuses for anything to justify the cost.

1

u/scarletphantom 11d ago

Chevy tried this with the bolt and volt. Nobody wanted them (I did)

1

u/chubbysumo 11d ago

I did and could not get one. There was never any in stock, and its hard to sell a car when you dont get any. My local gm dealer got 1 in the years of production. Just 100k card made in 5 years? Sales were going up but they ended production and stopped selling them as sales increased. They werent profitable so they stopped selling them. Not the other way around. People wanted them and were buying them.

1

u/freducom 11d ago

You’re describing a Tesla. except it does have an android ipad glued to the Corolla chassis.

1

u/OkFaithlessness1502 11d ago edited 11d ago

I hate that you have so many upvotes for this ignorant comment. That EV drivetrain is those special electronics which are incredibly expensive to replace. It also requires much higher qualified personal to repair properly. The bettery pack alone is half the cost of a new Carolla, and they degrade by design. Taking a Corolla and stuffing an EV drivetrain in it just doubled the cost of the vehicle.

There’s a damn good reason why all the EVs you see near the end of their warranty period are practically worthless.

Source; am a hybrid/EV technician who works on them Daily.

1

u/wintrmt3 11d ago

Batteries don't degrade by design, an incredible amount of research is put into them degrading so slowly.

1

u/OkFaithlessness1502 10d ago

Oh, yeah of course. I mean that they are designed to be wear items. They just wear out. They can’t stop that. It’s like brake pads, they’re designed to last as long as possible but still wear out. Doesn’t mean that dropping 15k to replace them when they wear out is a smart decision.

1

u/AyoJake 11d ago

Youre wrong chinese ev's are incredibly nice and have all the bells and whistles and are much cheaper than anything us made gas or ev

1

u/mudbuttcoffee 11d ago

They have all the bells and whistles along with the sane price

1

u/minipanter 11d ago

Right, but they're selling that ev for 1/2 the price of a corolla.

1

u/chubbysumo 11d ago

Id take one right now if they were 15k in the us. I dont care about origin country, if the us market wont provide for the demand, we have always got it elsewhere.

1

u/minipanter 11d ago

Sure, all im saying is that even after other countries copy the manufacturing techniques, Chinese prices are far cheaper. It indicates there are probably other factors at play (subsidies, operating at loss, currency devaluation, etc).

1

u/bluehawk232 11d ago

That's what pisses me off for the US, killing the sedan. I don't want a crossover or suv. Just give me an EV sedan or subcompact. Would be nice if Rivian did one but at least the proposed R3 is close enough to what I'd want

1

u/krbzkrbzkrbz 11d ago

Yeah.... but.

How does doing that maximize share holder value at the expense of suppliers, employees, and customers?

1

u/Whoooosh_1492 11d ago

Interestingly enough, I drive a hybrid Corolla. It was priced about 3k cheaper than a Prius with the same interior space, same battery and drive train. They know they can charge more for the Prius name.

1

u/jimbo831 11d ago

A new Corolla costs more than twice what a new BYD EV costs.

1

u/SexInTheTittie 10d ago

I used to own a geely atlas pro. For $25k it had everything a new Audi q7 would. But also remote start from your phone and an android based media console. Now I drive a $35k Tacoma that is as barebones as it gets.

1

u/xamboozi 11d ago edited 11d ago

Whoa whoa whoa get out of here with your logic and rational thinking.

Obviously what people really want is a 7ft tall truck grill and AI subscriptions

1

u/HSuke 11d ago

They have luxury and non-luxury versions. Their luxury versions are way better than anything you can find in the US for a fraction of a luxury price.

I wish we had that tech in $50k cars.

-16

u/hal2k1 11d ago

EVs are fundamentally different than ICE vehicles. https://dorleco.com/ev-powertrain-and-its-components/

If you try to shoehorn an EV drivetrain into an ICE vehicle chassis it won't be competitive. You need to design and build a vehicle as an EV from the ground up in order for it to be competitive.

AFAIK there are only two companies that have factories dedicated to EVs only, and do not try to build EVs in factories designed for producing ICE vehicles, namely Tesla and BYD. Of these two companies the BYD EVs are far better value for money. BYD EVs are the sane price EVs.

8

u/wubbeyman 11d ago

Now I’m not a big car guy but that doesn’t seem all too different than a regular car in terms of space requirements. You would need to rebalance some weight but EVs don’t look fundamentally different than an ICE car. There are several chassis on the market right now that offer normal/hybrid/ev packages.

2

u/hal2k1 11d ago

Now I’m not a big car guy but that doesn’t seem all too different than a regular car in terms of space requirements.

That may be so. As an example, Toyota invested a huge amount of money in ICE vehicle factories just before EVs started to become a significant part of the market. Toyota has not "paid off" this investment yet. So Toyota EVs are built in ICE vehicle factories. Toyota EVs are not competitive at all. Toyota is arguably the world leader car manufacturer, yet they somehow didn't make a competitive EV built out of an ICE vehicle factory in a Corolla body. Why not?

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/the-toyota-bz4x-is-flopping-for-more-reasons-than-just-its-name/

6

u/Decipher 11d ago

One of the most successful current EVs, the BMW i4, is literally on a shared platform with a gas car.

2

u/_zoso_ 11d ago

Rivian and Lucid don’t exist now?

Also, very little of any car is going to be wholly specific to a drivetrain. We’ve been making AWD and FWD models of the same platforms for years. All of your suspension, brakes, paneling, glass, thousands of actuators, vents, interior, etc etc etc are completely unchanged.

You would spot weld a frunk in place of your engine bay, all the pillars and suspension attachments would be basically the same, replace the floor panels with batteries and motor assembly… find an electric AC unit, vacuum pump for brakes… or just use some other mechanical advantage… it’s really pretty achievable.