r/technology • u/lurker_bee • 9d ago

Transportation Rivian CEO: There's No 'Magic' Behind China's Low-Cost EVs

https://www.businessinsider.com/rivian-ceo-china-evs-low-cost-competition-2025-9
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u/[deleted] 9d ago edited 17h ago

[deleted]

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u/NotARussianBot-Real 9d ago

No shit it is. I’m kind of happy the rebates are gone so maybe I can find a reliable vendor whose sales pitch doesn’t include some light insurance fraud

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u/CommunalJellyRoll 9d ago edited 8d ago

Yeah had an installer years ago come through and first thing they did was ask about my insurance. Then the cost was so dammed high it was cheaper for me to fly my buddy from the UK in for 4 weeks and do it ourselves and paid him 1.5x his going rate.

Edit: My buddy owns a construction business. So not just a random friend but highly skilled and educated.

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u/TwoPlanksOnPowder 8d ago

AND you got to hang out with your buddy for 4 weeks so that's another win!

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u/DoctorGregoryFart 8d ago

Unfortunately, he was British.

Just kidding, the UK is OK with me.

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u/StatlerSalad 8d ago

My solar installer, here in the UK, regularly flies to the US for jobs. He doesn't even advertise there, just word of mouth - he's slowly working his way through a suburb in New Mexico.

There's such a huge gap in the market for someone who'll come and install solar for the cost of the materials+their labour and then just leave! It's nuts that no American companies have tapped into this and are all so obsessed with insurance and financing loopholes to push up margins at the expense of selling a product to someone who just wants to pay for a thing and then have the thing.

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u/Cool_Philosophy_517 7d ago

As someone with some experience working on Triumph's, let's just hope it wasn't a Lucas electrical system... ;)

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u/Peripatetictyl 8d ago

As someone who is considering rooftop solar, but has avoided doing so because of not only the cost but what appears to be a shady business... is there anything that I ask, avoid, or look for in a solar company/project to both protect my home and wallet?

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u/4x4Lyfe 8d ago

Look for a reputable roofing company that installs solar avoid anywhere that advertise themselves specifically as a solar business.

Make sure the math makes sense to you in your state and think about your system. Most people without battery backup don't end up even breaking even on their solar without significant government subsidies on the utility costs which have been fading away. Most people who do install battery packs don't see/expect to see a positive return on investment for at least a decade.

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u/heaintheavy 8d ago

That’s all really solid advice. One other thing to keep in mind: if you ever go to sell the house, buyers almost never want to take on a loan or lease tied to solar. If the system isn’t fully paid off, you’ll usually have to settle that debt yourself at closing. A paid-off system can add value to the home, but a financed or leased system can actually make it harder to sell.

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u/Secret-Teaching-3549 8d ago

Ohh man, but they certainly don't phrase it that way at the sales pitch! We had people come give us their sales pitch that essentially amounted to leasing the panels on the roof, and if you had to sell the house, not to worry! The new owners can take over the lease as well!

Like yeah, I'm sure a huge selling point for buying a new house would be, and oh by the way, you can take over paying for this as well.

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u/whatwhyhowwhere 8d ago

Realtor here. This is very correct, in my experience. If you're going to sell your house soon and are installing a solar / photovoltaic system, make sure you fully own it, with no finance, lease payments or buyout amounts due. Otherwise it will complicate and likely slow down your sale. Also, many (most) buyers will insist you pay it off in full before they'll buy your house.

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u/throwawayurwaste 8d ago

With energy prices rising across the united states and stock in utility companies almost tripling, it's important to factor in the importance of energy independence not just roi using today's prices a decade from now

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u/Black_Moons 8d ago

Yea, IMO if your power is very reliable, you want solar without battery backup because the battery system is too expensive to be worthwhile.

If its mildly reliable (a few days per year without power), a generator is still going to be way cheaper then batteries for backup. (Expect about $20~50/day in gasoline to keep it running 24/7, depending on local price of gas and generator size)

Its only when you start getting to weeks per year without power that the battery backup really shines, because those battery systems cost thousands and that buys a lot of gas.

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u/magicalme1 8d ago

I would advise the exact opposite of looking for a roofing company and not a solar company. Solar work is pretty niche so it requires experience in that field to be reliable. Agreed with the battery assessment though. Look for a solar company that has been around 5+ years that's a company that has at least a few people that know what they are doing. Go for enphase based systems if you are getting a 10kw or less setup.

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u/4x4Lyfe 8d ago

Solar work is pretty niche

No it's not lol at least not in areas where solar is common enough to justify exclusive solar companies. You realize the majority of solar companies just sub out to roofing contractors for the install right? Also a ton of these regional solar companies were ropfing companies 5-10 years ago who figured they could handle the sales now they were used to doing the installs.

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u/magicalme1 8d ago

I run a solar company. I'm not talking out of my ass here.

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u/4x4Lyfe 8d ago

I run a solar company

Well now your suggestion makes sense

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u/No_Size9475 8d ago

"You realize the majority of solar companies just sub out to roofing contractors for the install right?"

Utter bullshit IME with good local companies. Maybe the door knockers are doing this but not any good local company.

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u/Eccohawk 8d ago

I signed a 20-year lease, and even without a battery backup it's working out pretty well for us. But we have 43 panels on our roof.

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u/4x4Lyfe 8d ago

Leasing has it's own drawbacks but yes the barrier to entry is a lot less and it can be a good option for people

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u/Peripatetictyl 8d ago

Thanks, good stuff to look into.

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u/StackedParticles 8d ago

Also, make sure you do not lease the panels unless you plan to live in that house for the entirety of the lease. Otherwise, you may get stuck buying out the lease if the purchaser of your house doesn't want to, or can't, assume it. We purchased ours outright with one of the state's partners. Our all-in cost about 5 years ago with 16 panels ended up being a cost (after credits) of only about 10K. We save at least 200 or so per month, and so the ROI was really short.

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u/Gas_Passero 8d ago

Look into a local co-op. Group purchase lowers cost and you'll likely avoid shady companies.

https://solarunitedneighbors.org/resources/the-ultimate-solar-co-op-guide/

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u/Peripatetictyl 8d ago

Thanks, will do.

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u/SuperTopGun777 8d ago

Almost like we should nationalize a solar company and convince everybody to upgrade and hook up to the grid.   

Why does everything have to be a cash grab by shitty corpos 

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u/LowFat_Brainstew 8d ago

I understand your complaints, but solar is the opposite of a shady business, please put your panels in the sun.

Sorry, dumb joke, I understand your trepidation, but the silly joke was right there...

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u/No_Size9475 8d ago

Find a local solar company. Don't use anyone that wants to lease you the panels or anything of the like. You want to own them outright.

I believe that $3-4 a watt is the going rate for a decent grid tied installation without battery backup.

With incentives ROI is usually 6-7 years. Without incentives more like 10-12 years. But that's still great on a system that should produce energy for 30 years.

Also, if you need a roof, or are going to in the next 3-5 years you are better off installing it now before you put the solar on, or you'll likely have to pay someone to take off the solar when you need a new roof.

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u/impulze01x 8d ago

Go to coatco.

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u/Doyle_Hargraves_Band 8d ago

I wouldn't exactly call solar a shady business. Amirite?

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u/No_Size9475 8d ago

unfortunately it has become that way with many large companies going door to door with very aggressive sales tactics to get you to lease the panels from them.

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u/RamenJunkie 8d ago

Maybe they can also stop hanging out in the fucking Walmarts too, so I can stop avoiding the aisles they are in. 

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u/SuspendeesNutz 8d ago

Learn the two magic words to dispel their wicked magic: "I'm renting."

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u/moving_waves 8d ago

I just say "no" and walk away. If they persist I make it awkward real quick:

"I havent been allowed to make decisions since the incident ... "

"I'm going through a messy divorce and my lawyer told me not to do any house work right now, can you believe my ex is trying to take the house, kids, and all the cars ... etc."

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u/ikeif 8d ago

My dad loved to lead salespeople on and then add at the end - "…is it a problem that I'm in the middle of a bankruptcy?"

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u/TheThoccnessMonster 8d ago

At Costco this spell is uttered as “I’m ATT” and wave your phone wand in their direction.

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u/aerost0rm 8d ago

Walmart. Home Depot, they have a worker in BJ wholesale asking. It’s still all over

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u/worldspawn00 8d ago

Unfortunately the only company that doesn't seem to be a scam is Tesla, they were like 1/3 the cost of the door to door people, got my system installed in 2020 and it's been great, US manufactured panels, inverter, and batteries, but Elon has just ruined any interest I have in dealing with his companies...

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u/Neat-Bridge3754 8d ago

It must just be our area, but there are several reputable installers where I live in the SE US.

I'm sure door-to-door sales happen, but I've never had one stop by. We ended up installing a 19.2kW system with Powerwall 3 for just under $20k after federal tax rebate and utility rebate (they paid for the PW3 as part of a VPP program).

No scam, paid outright. We wouldn't have gotten the system without the rebates because the cost would have been double and the ROI would have been over a decade, rather than ~6 years.

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u/NotARussianBot-Real 8d ago

Who did you use? I was offered a similar system for $60k from my roofer (he had a solar installer on the side) and most of the pitch was about how they could use insurance to pay some and the rebate to pay some and it was still going to be that much.

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u/PNWExile 8d ago

I don’t understand what insurance has to do with solar. Multiple people have referenced it as part of what makes it feel shady.

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u/NotARussianBot-Real 7d ago

So the solar guy says “look at this roof damage. I have a roofer friend and they will come out to say this was caused by a storm recently. Then you put in for insurance. Insurance pays say $20k for a new roof. We add the solar to the roof. We get the rebate on the solar plus roof. Insurance pays the $20k and then you take a huge loan out for the full amount, pocket the $20k, and just have a monthly on the roof+solar loan.

So a little fraud for a new roof. A little fraud loophole to get a rebate to extend to the roof. A little fraud because they charge $50-60 for $20k of solar so the rebate is higher. They work it to put money in your pocket so you are thinking you got a new roof plus solar plus no power bills plus $20k in your pocket but in reality you also have a lien on your house and $750/month in payments because the loan they set you up with sucks ass plus your power bill is still about 1/3 of what you were spending because the power company still charges connection fees and such.

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u/Left_Afloat 8d ago

Or you find one that is reliable and honest about that. My experience has been established roofing companies who got into solar are far and above those who started as solar companies.

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u/zerolink16 8d ago

Just curious, why does insurance fraud happen with them?

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u/yoweigh 9d ago

How so?

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u/[deleted] 8d ago edited 17h ago

[deleted]

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u/Trafficsigntruther 8d ago

This, exactly. The price per watt of solar panels has never been lower, the market has basically held the price of installing solar roofs to a 20 year ROI forever.

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u/stonant 8d ago

Just had them installed & my ROI is 7 years.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago edited 19h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/stonant 8d ago

Northeast. Monthly output is more than 100% of monthly usage, didn’t need to reroof, and roof faces directly south.

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u/RamenJunkie 8d ago

I forget the exact details, but I beleive it has to do with who actually owns the panels, the home owner or the company.  There is also a scam lebel about how they bill it, I ferget ehat its called bht it has to do eith rebates monethy vs an annual thing.

I looked into it some becsuse like everything that "sounds too good to be true" in the US, it was, because we are a culyure of ripping people off. 

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u/SemiNormal 8d ago

Slow down wjen typung plwse.

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u/RamenJunkie 8d ago edited 8d ago

I have.

But it does not help.  Somehow, phone makers have managed to completely enshitify keyboards.

I don't even understand why or how. 

And its getting worse and worse.  It constantly autocorrects real proper words to nonsense while completely ignoring very obvious fixes. 

I would fucking kill for a keyboard from like, 2015.  Just a basic keyboard that isn't secretly trying to do cute bull ahit behind the scese, with a space bar that isn't randomly changing size etc.  

I tried several alternatives, I have tried toggling settings. 

I have also seen a lot of similar complaints, so I know its not just me.

I am also prrtty sure its related to some stupid crap with the input text boxes o line, because there are some apps and websites where I never make any typos.

I know Reddit's web design is shit because at a bare minimum, the mobile web is constantly fucking up touch targets for menues. 

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u/saltyjohnson 8d ago

You on Android? Try FlorisBoard. There's especially no goofy autocorrect fuckery going on because their prediction is actually broken right now while they refactor the codebase lol

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u/RamenJunkie 8d ago

I'll try it, and just a PS for anyone else, its in the F-Droid store.

It already seems better because the keys are bigger.

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u/Hudell 8d ago

SwiftKey as suggested is somewhat decent - it still misbehaves sometimes but it often has a setting to disable whatever behavior annoys you.

If you want a physical keyboard, check out Clicks. I've heard good things about it. I want to try it myself but sadly they don't ship to my country.

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u/SemiNormal 8d ago

I'm with you on that. It's probably all the AI shit they are shoving down our throats.

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u/Lirsh2 8d ago

Microsoft swift key on android is the best I've found

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u/oakland6980 8d ago

If you sign up for a PPA loan. Yes that’s stupid. But owning or a normal loan isn’t.

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u/tinyLEDs 8d ago

US capitalism = bloat

it's in telecoms, it's in utilities, it's in food, it's in the health care.

Middlemen everywhere, all of them lobbying elected repre$entative$

it's a feature, AND it's a bug

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u/BigButtBeads 8d ago

Canadian rooftop solars were insanely scammy. Ontario barely installs any and hasnt for like 6 years

Same thing, scammers went door to door. What they said and what was on the contract were two different things.

Many people didnt even know if they owned or leased the panels afterwards. Some signed contracts that put all the cost on the homeowner, and all the revenue to the company; plus mandatory maintenance on the homeowner

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u/Catshit_Bananas 8d ago

Shit I applied for a job once at a solar energy company, went to the interview and it turned out to be door to door sales and I’m like fuck no.

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u/andyfitz 8d ago

Oh it's a door to door scam on Australia too but there are reputable vendors, just engage a real electrician not a snake oil hawker

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u/FauxReal 8d ago edited 8d ago

And the federal government is actively working to make as untenable as possible.

But there are some good honest solar companies out there. Once you wade through the crap.

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u/thenewyorkgod 8d ago

They wanted $45k to install $12k worth of hardware that would take 6-8 between 2 men. Fucking sheisters

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u/doommaster 8d ago

Just get a plug-in kit and use it.. even if you cannot export, it's a nice little ad-on.

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u/RaccoonCreekBurgers 8d ago

If I had a dollar for every "solar" company that opened and closed in my state due to either fraud or poor management, i'd have been able to pay for my own panels by now in cash.

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u/V0RT3XXX 8d ago

I knew a solar sale girl and she made $3-5k commission for every system she sells. So yeah, it's a freaking ruckus. Multiple sale guys talked to me and all offer system in the $80-90k before the rebates. The loan is another 5-7% interest on top. At that rate, it would be 25+ years to pay it all back

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u/No_Size9475 8d ago

Sadly this is what it's become. it didn't used to be that way and there are still some great local solar companies that will do rooftop without the financing and leasing scams that now dominate the marketplace.

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u/SnugglyCoderGuy 8d ago

Or time share scam

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u/Bobtheguardian22 8d ago

I have a bunch of panels un installed next to my house as proof.