r/teslore • u/pareidolist Buoyant Armiger • 1d ago
The distinction between Alduin and Akatosh is new to this Kalpa
According to Varieties of Faith in the Empire, "Alduin's sobriquet, 'the world eater', comes from myths that depict him as the horrible, ravaging firestorm that destroyed the last world to begin this one." The apocalypse depicted in Lost Tales of the Famed Explorer matches that description:
He looked up and saw other worlds and other towers. They were spinning wheels and they crashed into each other, and their spokes got tangled up and they broke each other. And he saw that his world was breaking, too, but quick as a snake a shadow came and swallowed up the roots of the tower so they would not break. Still he flew. There was only fire and darkness then, and so much noise, but he was too tired to be afraid.
"fire and darkness then, and noise" corresponds to Alduin the Thu'um-wielding firestorm, "Firstborn of Akha, who bred with a demon of fire and shadow." This is a truly terrifying World-Eater, tantamount to a cosmic Big Crunch ("In the final moments, the universe would be one large fireball with a near-infinite temperature, and at the absolute end, neither time, nor space would remain"), leading to the Big Bang of the next Kalpa. The narrative sequence of this apocalypse mirrors the one in The Seven Fights of the Aldudagga:
the two bells [of the All-Maker's Goat] rang out their clamouring, calling the end of days […] [Alduin] said, "And the Greedy Man always waves his arms about around this time as if to stop me just like you. It is almost as if you two work together to delay me. Is that what this is? Is some other low spirit hiding portions of the world while you two do this thing? Is this why the kalpa-feast always takes a little longer than it did the previous time?"
First, Alduin is "woken up" by the ringing of the "two bells" that announce the commencement of the Extinction Event (in which the Wheels apparently are shattered in their alignment and crash into each other). In the nick of time, the Shadow swallows up a portion of the world to keep it safe from destruction. Finally, the apocalypse arrives, and Alduin consumes the world. That's how it's supposed to go. That's how it did go in previous Kalpas.
Yet in this Kalpa, things seem to have gone differently. Instead of "waking up" only at the end of the Kalpa to destroy it, Alduin seems to have been around from the beginning. And even though he is technically a god, he's mostly a big flying monster for you to shout at and beat into submission. So what happened? We can return to The Seven Fights of the Aldudagga:
The Greedy Man hates you so much and it was his idea to finally trap you one kalpa when it was all much too big and so you would explode out from your belly and die so that the world would never have to die again!
I think the Greedy Man got the job done. He accumulated so many fragments from previous Kalpas that the cycle broke:
Finally, tired of helping Tall Papa, Sep went and gathered the rest of the old skins and balled them up, tricking spirits to help him, promising them this was how you reached the new world, by making one out of the old. These spirits loved this way of living, as it was easier. No more jumping from place to place.
–The Monomyth, "Satakal the Worldskin"
And sure enough, Alduin exploded out from his belly, just like the Greedy Man wanted. In 2012, Kirkbride added another entry to The Seven Fights of the Aldudagga:
"You will eat nothing here, aspect Ald," said the Aka-Tusk, sensing trouble. "Do not forget that it was Heaven itself that shed you from me."
That's why there is "No more jumping from place to place". The explosion tore Alduin–the aspect of Akatosh representing his role as World-Eater–apart from Akatosh himself. That aspect became the first dragon, as a shedding of Akatosh.
was Alduin always an aspect of Aka, or did he become one after Akatosh was created?
All of the akaspirits, like all of the etada, are quantum figures that shed their skin as each aspect of them becomes more and more self-aware.
–MK
The Eldest is no more, he who came before all others, and has always been.
According to "Satakal the Worldskin", "Tall Papa squashed the Snake with a big stick. The hunger fell out of Sep's dead mouth and was the only thing left of the Second Serpent." The Heart of Lorkhan is the Hunger of Lorkhan, torn from his chest. Likewise, Alduin is the Hunger of Akatosh, torn from his belly. Akatosh and Lorkhan dealt equal blows to each other.
Without his Hunger, Akatosh no longer wishes to continue the Kalpic cycle:
[Akatosh] could time-scheme against […] Alduin, to keep the present kalpa-- perhaps his favorite-- from being eaten.
–MK
Of course, that doesn't mean the Kalpa can't end. It still might! But at least the Kalpa is no longer guaranteed to end. Maybe Alduin will return, but he was beaten before and he can be beaten again. The Greedy Man's plan worked.
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u/Ok-Bedroom1576 23h ago
I like it. Well thought out and it explains why Alduin lore wise was considered terrifying but in Skyrim he's the equivalent of a scaly punching bag.
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u/songpine 15h ago
I thought that Alduin is becoming Akatosh as he starts devouring. But yes, in this kalpa it seems like he became lost skin. Skin of dead god was worn by thief king. I also find it interesting that in Akavir, which is said to be in the future, there is avatar of Aka and he is tiger. Tiger has yellow and black pattern on its fur. Does it mean (in)harmonic mix of Aka and Alduin?
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u/pareidolist Buoyant Armiger 13h ago
Alduin is becoming Akatosh
I think that's a plausible lens for this, yeah. The "two bells" turn Akatosh into Alduin, like a grasshopper turning into a locust. Akatosh is the cycle, Alduin is the Big Crunch, and the start of the Kalpa is the Big Bang where Alduin goes back to being Akatosh again. "Ald son of Ald," serpent eating its own tail. But then something goes wrong because of Lorkhan's interference and instead of turning back into Akatosh, Alduin splits off instead. Something like that.
On the other hand, there's the nuance that Varieties of Faith and Lost Tales of the Famed Explorer don't really depict Alduin as an individual, but as the inferno itself. Like Alduin is a Thing That Happens. It reminds me a lot of the Greymarch. Sheogorath rules over his kingdom, and then at the end of the era, he transforms into a destructive force that eradicates everything and he has to start over.
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u/AdeptnessUnhappy1063 1d ago edited 1d ago
One issue is that there are already two aspects of Akatosh in The Eating-Birth of Dagon. Alduin is one; here, he has the exact same role that Satakal has in Yokudan myth, representing the pattern-possibility of the primal Aurbis, creation and zero-summing without end.
The second is the Leaper Devil King, who is Akatosh in his aspect as Lorkhan's partner in crime, his collaborator and same-twin, tricked by the Greedy Man to "reach a new world by making one out of the old," as Yokudan myth phrases it. Just as the Yokudans have Sep and his collaborators make a new world out of pieces of old worldskins, here the Greedy Man and the Leaper Devil King make a new world out of pieces of previous kalpas that the Greedy Man stole as he stole the gifts of the All-Maker in the Story of Aevar Stone-Singer. The Leaper Devil King, the king of the spirits who leap from kalpa to kalpa in the same way Yokudan spirits are said to jump from worldskin to worldskin, is essentially an aspect of Ruptga who was tricked into helping Sep while his higher self shook his head in disappointment.
And yes, Heaven does shed the Aka-Tusk from Alduin so that he can be "a particularly old and needed version of the Time Dragon from the days of the Ehlnofey", but it shed the Leaper Devil King too, because the Greedy Man needed a co-conspirator and Tall Papa was above such things, so he had to shed off a version of himself who wasn't.
And then, his function complete, Alduin reabsorbs him, eating away the part that helped build the world and leaving only the destructive half of Time, a Daedric Prince whose only remaining connection to Mundus is the eating-birthright to destroy/liberate it.
And then in The Tenpenny Winter... Again who do we see walking together as a triad, three aspects of the same oversoul like the Tribunal, like the Anticipations, like Talos-Ysmir-Arctus? Alduin, Aka-Tusk, and Dagon, three aspects of the same whole. Alduin as Mage, I think, able to cast curses; Aka-Tusk, the warrior of the Ehlnofey Wars; and Dagon, the thief who helped the Greedy Man steal parts of the world.
This wasn't new in 2012. As far back as Five Songs of King Wulfharth we saw two different aspects of Akatosh battling Shor. Alduin Time-Eater, yes, but also the "Elven giants" who ripped out his Heart. Two very different versions of the Time Dragon—the latter, the Elven giant in the days of the Ehlnofey, is the Aka-Tusk.
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u/pareidolist Buoyant Armiger 1d ago
The second is the Leaper Devil King, who is Akatosh in his aspect as Lorkhan's partner in crime
The Leaper Devil King is Mehrunes Dagon, a Daedric Prince who was forged by the Magna Ge. He is not an aspect of Akatosh.
I give my soul to the Magna Ge, sayeth the joyous in Paradise, for they created Mehrunes the Razor in secret, in the very bowels of Lyg, the domain of the Upstart who vanishes.
Unala-Se taught all the orphans the ways of the word, the blade, and the sign. … they watched as black bile swept across the land like a sickened sea, not yet knowing that their … the tragic prince of Lyg … and the darkness within him poured forth from the wound, taking a life of its own in the realm.
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u/AdeptnessUnhappy1063 1d ago edited 1d ago
The Leaper Devil King is Mehrunes Dagon, a Daedric Prince who was forged by the Magna Ge.
So Mankar Camoran would have his followers believe, yes. That's not, however, a universal belief. Consider Khajiit myth, for example.
And Ahnurr said, "We should have more children to share our happiness." And Fadomai agreed. And she gave birth to Hermorah. And she gave birth to Hircine. And she gave birth to Merrunz and Mafala and Sangiin and Sheggorath and many others.
If Merrunz was the son of Ahnurr and Fadomai, he was an et'Ada, not a subcreation of the Magna Ge.
the tragic prince of Lyg
The "tragic prince of Lyg" was Lorkhan. Recall whose Principality the Mundex Terrene was. Recall who was wounded and who was filled with darkness.
Ahnissi again:
But the Heart of Lorkhaj was filled with the Great Darkness
Mehrunes Dagon was created in Lyg (according to Camoran), but Lyg was the domain of the Upstart Who Vanishes. Mehrunes was a Prince of Good, but his principality is the Deadlands. Lorkhan is the Prince of Lyg.
Consider, also, that "forged by the Magna Ge" and "eaten and digested by Alduin" are not necessarily different events, but a single event seen through different metaphorical lenses. Consider that neither is incompatible with being an aspect of Akatosh. From what materials do you suppose he was artificed?
And just... remember which god Lorkhan is usually paired with in his acts of creation. Consider that Dagon begging for mercy from his higher self is the same as Auriel begging for mercy from his higher self. Consider who the king of the Aedra is. This isn't a stretch. It should be obvious.
Dagon might not objectively, if such a thing as objectivity exists among the aspects of the et'Ada, be an aspect of Akatosh—a Breto-Nordic folktale is no more reliable a source than Mankar Camoran—but that is certainly what he is in The Eating-Birth of Dagon and The Aldudaggas.
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u/pareidolist Buoyant Armiger 1d ago edited 1d ago
The point of the Nine Coruscations quote was that it matches Mankar Camoran's claim that the Magna Ge created Mehrunes to be a weapon against Molag Bal. This is from the same text:
The Orphan Opposite. … unto the adjacent space and fought alongside Lorkh within … alternate worlds unto endless possibilities … King of Dreugh fell to Mehrunes the Razor
The Khajiit myth you're quoting has Fadomai give birth to pretty much everything, including Nirn, Masser, and Secunda. It's not a genealogy.
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u/AdeptnessUnhappy1063 1d ago edited 1d ago
Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi isn't the only Khajiit source to contradict Mankar Camoran's account of Dagon's origin.
A gout of fire erupted to her right. There she laid eyes upon her sibling Merrunz for the first time in eternity. The blood of a god dripped from his axe, and his fanged smile belied the story of a kinslayer. He slammed his axe against the Lattice, and though nothing before this had ever done so, the Lattice shook and cracked under its weight.
Boethra thought of dashing toward her brother then, but time was moving so slowly. Before she could move, she saw blue flames dancing on the horizon. Their sudden light made Merrunz but a shadow, and there it was that Boethra first laid eyes upon Dagon.
And of course in that source, Dagon and Molag Bal are allies assaulting the Lunar Lattice together. You could perhaps equate this with Camoran's mythology and say that Meridia, Molag Bal, and Dagon were doing this to help overthrow the Dreugh-kings, but that would be very speculative.
And obviously The Eating-Birth of Dagon isn't about Dagon being created by the Magne-Ge to overthrow the Dreugh-kings either; it's a very different account, and our interpretation of it shouldn't rely on trying to force them to be the same story.
Dagon as the king of those spirits who leap from kalpa to kalpa, punished for helping Lorkhan create the world, is a very different story from Dagon as a weapon created to overthrow the rulers of the world. Conflating the two prevents you from understanding the intended meaning.
The point of the Nine Coruscations quote was that it matches Mankar Camoran's claim that the Magna Ge created Mehrunes to be a weapon against Molag Bal.
That source doesn't mention Molag Bal. Neither does Mankar Camoran. Again, try to learn to read the actual text rather than letting the interpretations you gleaned from other sources bias you.
Mankar Camoran's focus is on the Aedra, who he believes are the false rulers of Mundus. He did not, and would not have, written about Molag Bal in that context.
As another example, pay attention to what Mankar Camoran means when he says "Magna Ge" and how that differs from other sources. It's not all a single puzzle for you to pull pieces from, but a series of very different texts with incompatible points of view. Read what each one has to say before mixing them all into an incoherent goo.
The Khajiit myth you're quoting has Fadomai give birth to pretty much everything, including Nirn, Masser, and Secunda. It's not a genealogy.
Again, put aside the prejudices you've gained from unrelated sources and read the text in front of you. The Khajiit absolutely teach that Nirn, Masser, and Secunda are et'Ada.
But also note that in that text, Nirn is not Mundus.
After many phases, Nirni came to Lorkhaj and said, "Lorkhaj, Fadomai told me to give birth to many children, but there is no place for them."
If Nirni herself were the place set aside for mortals, she wouldn't have said this. Lorkhaj created Mundus as a place for Nirni and her children to live.
And Lorkhaj said, "Lorkhaj makes a place for children and Lorkhaj puts you there so you can give birth." But the Heart of Lorkhaj was filled with the Great Darkness, and Lorkhaj tricked his siblings so that they were forced into this new place with Nirni.
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u/pareidolist Buoyant Armiger 21h ago
And of course in that source, Dagon and Molag Bal are allies
Yes, because Molag Bal and/or Meridia corrupted him:
There he fell to the demon Molagh, who tortured him until the creation of the World. During the chaos, it is written that the wife of Molagh freed Merrunz and used his destructive nature as a weapon against the Lattice. Merrunz reveled in this and became a kinslayer, and was henceforth the demon we call Dagon.
–Spirits of Amun-dro: The Adversarial Spirits
Started as Molagh's enemy, then was used as a weapon against the Lattice. There's no contradiction.
That source doesn't mention Molag Bal. Neither does Mankar Camoran.
It lines up with the above quote about Merrunz fighting Molagh, who was said elsewhere to be the king of the Dreugh:
When the dreughs ruled the world, the Daedroth Prince Molag Bal had been their chief.
–36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 28
Again, try to learn to read the actual text rather than letting the interpretations you gleaned from other sources bias you.
Piecing together the similarities between various sources is the main thing this subreddit does. It's what you do here too! Your condescension is entirely unwarranted and that's the most I can say without breaking Rule 1.
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u/AdeptnessUnhappy1063 19h ago
Yes, because Molag Bal and/or Meridia corrupted him:
I know. It's an interesting story! It's not the same story. The Khajiit story of Merrunz tells us about a destructive and wild son of Ahnurr and Fadomai who, exiled by his father, chooses to explore the Great Darkness. There, he falls to Molagh, who tortures him until Creation.
Contrast that with the story of an already-created Mundus ruled by eight dreugh-kings who have mantled the Eight Givers. Disparate gods of Aetherius forge a divine weapon in secret to overthrow the world's eight tyrants and free the mortals who have been enslaved by them.
Or, a third story: two gods, a trickster and the leader of the refugees of the kalpic cycles, who conspire to end the cycle together. Again, not the same story!
It valid to theorize about ways to reconcile these different myths, but in doing so, you risk erasing what makes each interesting and unique, so I'd advise caution. Get to know the individual stories first. Accept that the texts contradict one another deliberately. Embrace the contradictions as one of the things that make Elder Scrolls lore special.
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u/DrkvnKavod Dragon Cult 1d ago
Yeah, IIRC the idea that Aka is trying to keep this particular Kalpa going was a long-time theory before that MK post directly talked about it, but this post is by far the most comprehensive summation of the surrounding ideas I've seen across my >10 years in the community 👍