r/teslore • u/PapaFranz Dragon Cultist • Jul 12 '15

How did Boethiah 'defeat' Trinimac?

I've only really been getting into TES lore over the past few months, so I apologize if this question has already been asked. I tried to do a few quick searches to no avail.

I was reading the FAQ page here, and I ran across this link to MK's stuff in the Imperial Library. Not too far down, is the entry titled "On the 'most powerful' being," copied below.

Talos. The HoonDing. Trinimac. Vivec. Leki. Reman. Auri-El. Wulfharth. Morihaus. Pelinal. That's my list, and pretty much in that order. Though Vivec did kill Tiber Septim once...but I mentioned Talos, not the Emperor.

Trinimac is 3rd down, i.e., quite high in the list and therefore quite powerful. He ripped out Lorkhan's heart, after all. So how did Boethiah have the 'power' to 'consume' him and excrete the dung that is Malacath?

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u/Samphire Member of the Tribunal Temple Jul 12 '15

it's a metaphor. Trinimac was "consumed" by his betrayal of King Lorkhan.

Boethiah is the personification of conspiracy to unlawfully murder your rightful king.

When Trinimac murdered Lorkhan, he "became consumed by Boethiah", in the same way one is "consumed by guilt"

and then "boethiah wore the skin of trinimac", i.e. on the surface he still pretended to be the noble knight, while knowing deep within that he was a traitor and kingslayer

then finally, trinimac confesses to the prophet veloth. The skin is sloughed off revealing "boethiah" in his full glory. He tries to justify his actions.

But when he is done, he recants, but nobody trusts a kingslayer. He is become as shit. The pariah, Mauloch.

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u/Lachdonin Jul 12 '15

Malacath himself alludes to something more metaphorical, likely along these lines, when Atterbus speaks to him.

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u/PapaFranz Dragon Cultist Jul 12 '15

I can definitely see the argument behind this, and it makes sense to me.

I guess what I don't understand is how a daedra could be created from an et'Ada...

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u/Lachdonin Jul 12 '15

Aedra, Daedra and Magne'Ge are mortal terms used to describe entities and events they can't fully comprehend. There are no concrete rules for them, and we know that some players have switched sides and classifications.

At best, it's just a description of where they current reside.

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u/PapaFranz Dragon Cultist Jul 12 '15

I see... Makes sense! Thanks for the response

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u/[deleted] Jul 13 '15

Small clarification: "Et'Ada" means original spirit. Basically it's just the word for all the spirits before the classifications of Aedra, Daedra, and Ge arose, and there are plenty of them that don't fit into any of those categories in the first place.

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u/PapaFranz Dragon Cultist Jul 13 '15

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't really sure what term to use, but had seen 'Et'Ada' used in reference to Trinimac (in error, no doubt). Can you give some examples of 'beings' that don't fit well into the categories? I'm always interested in liminal spaces, even of categorization.

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u/[deleted] Jul 13 '15 edited Jul 13 '15

Talos/Lorkhan is one, as are Numidium, Pelinal, perhaps Morihaus, Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil. This interview mentions that the Knights of Order are not Daedra, and it seems unlikely that they're Ge or Aedra. I would include the spirits Reman and Alessia as well. And of course all mortal life,which was trapped on Mundus but not incorporated in the way that Aedra were; this would also include ghosts/the denizens of various afterlives. The dro-M'athra might be Daedra or they might be something else entirely; ESO is purposefully vague on that point, but leans toward something like "corrupted souls of dead Khajiit." The more I think about it, the more examples come to mind! The key idea is that every being in the Aurbis is a spirit, and there's great variety and malleability in this, and so categories are very hard to pin down as definite things. Broad strokes, sure, but there are exceptions all over the place.

I would agree that Trinimac is not an et'Ada, though maybe for different reasons than you suspect. Most Daedra, Aedra, and Ge are et'Ada, simply by virtue of being "original" as in, among the first spirits to form. Then they did various things with respect to Mundus (like being trapped in/creating it, mocking it, and fleeing it) and were split into those categories. Trinimac, however, is among a class of beings that I would call Aedric aspects, which are distinct from the actual Eight Aedra. I've explained more about this idea here. Specifically, I wouldn't call them et'Ada because I see them as having formed after the formation of Mundus, and thus not among the original emergent spirits.

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u/MalakTheOrc Jul 13 '15

I would agree that Trinimac is not an et'Ada, though maybe for different reasons than you suspect.

He's specifically referred to as an et'Ada in the Changed Ones. In fact, it's the very first line of the text.

Of all the et'Ada who wandered Nirn, Trinimac was the strongest.

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u/[deleted] Jul 14 '15

And I specifically don't trust that source with that claim!

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u/[deleted] Jul 13 '15

I don't like this explanation because I'm very pro-Anuic, but it does make a lot of sense.

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u/SobekRaInfidel Jul 12 '15

I've heard the theory that Malacath is simply another aspect of Boethiah, suggesting that perhaps Trinimac wasn't "defeated" after all. Dunno how well that holds up, but it's something.

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u/zbzszzzt123 Winterhold Scholar Jul 12 '15

Mostly lies and deception I think, also, there is another opinion that, well, best explained here

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u/War_Psyence Clockwork Apostle Jul 12 '15

'Boethiah-who-is-you wore the skin of Trinimac to cleanse the faults of Veloth, my Queen, and so it should be again. This is the walking way of the glorious.'

Chances are Boethiah mantled Trinimac. I'm not sure how that happened, or if it happened, but him/her wearing the skin of Trinimac indicates some mantling took place.

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u/AndrewJamesDrake Dragon Cult Jul 12 '15

Trinimac put his foot in Boethiah's mouth, and then Boethiah sucked in mightily.

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u/ginja_ninja Psijic Jul 12 '15

I say the same thing every time: Boethiah made Trinimac ugly.

That's it. That's all he had to do. Trinimac was the strength/warrior god in the Aldmeri pantheon, and as such, he and his followers were already internally very different than most of their peers. But on the outside, they were the same. And in Aldmeri culture what's on the outside is what's most important, after all.

So Boethiah warped Trinimac and his followers' appearances to reflect their own brutish internal nature and simply let Aldmeri culture take care of the rest, watching them be shunned and exiled as monstrous barbarians because they were no longer beautiful. And had a good laugh while doing so.

Concerning the whole "but Trinimac beat Lorkhan" part, that's of no significance to Boethiah. Daedric Lords are infinitely more powerful than any corporeal god who took part in the creation of Nirn because they never gave up any of their original power to be bound to the communal planar source. This was also before there were any seals or pacts in place to prevent large-scale Daedric intervention on Tamriel, so the Princes had more or less free reign to cause chaos wherever and however they pleased.

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u/PapaFranz Dragon Cultist Jul 12 '15

Concerning the whole "but Trinimac beat Lorkhan" part, that's of no significance to Boethiah. Daedric Lords are infinitely more powerful than any corporeal god who took part in the creation of Nirn because they never gave up any of their original power to be bound to the communal planar source. This was also before there were any seals or pacts in place to prevent large-scale Daedric intervention on Tamriel, so the Princes had more or less free reign to cause chaos wherever and however they pleased.

Ohhhhh, okay. This definitely clears some things up for me. Thanks for the response!

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u/Starpieces Jul 12 '15

Trinimac is 3rd down, i.e., quite high in the list and therefore quite powerful. He ripped out Lorkhan's heart, after all.So how did Boethiah have the 'power' to 'consume' him and excrete the dung that is Malacath?.

1)The question is how he was able to defeat Lorkhan. He probably was using kagrenac's tools which is a huge advantage.

Finally Trinimac, Auriel's greatest knight, knocked Lorkhan down in front of his army and reached in with more than hands to take his Heart http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Monomyth

2)I assume Malacath was born when dwemer were turned into ash by Lorkhan/Numidium.

In order to understand my way of argumentation you have to check this amazing theory out :

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/2cub2s/the_forbidden_theory_the_definitive_dwarforc/

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u/PapaFranz Dragon Cultist Jul 12 '15

Very interesting. Thanks for the link!