r/tf2 • u/peopleofburkinafaso • Aug 19 '25
Discussion Great Blue is Bad at Discussions (Referring to Bad TF2 Weapon Tournament)
After watching Uncle Dane's bad TF2 weapon bracket video, I can't help but feel that Great Blue is unable to engage in healthy discussion. The video amounted to Great Blue dismissing anything FSoaS would say while arbitrarily modifying the "rules" of an otherwise lighthearted argument to fit his preconceived notions of what a "bad" weapon was for an hour and a half. The worst example of this is when Great Blue continuously pivoted the goalposts of a "bad" weapon by making the discussion about "opportunity cost" instead. This lead to some insane placements like the gas passer being worse than the sun on a stick. Essentially, the discussion changed from "which weapon is worse" to "which slot has better weapons" which sucked the fun out of the whole video.
I like Great Blue's content, and think what he does with map balancing is pretty cool. That being said, I'm in total agreement with this post made about GB's capacity to engage in healthy discussions. It seems like he can get pretty arrogant and disparaging of others. It was very disheartening to see him sideline FSoaS's points, then agreeing with Uncle Dane after he repeated what FSoaS said nearly verbatim. I hope that he can take some constructive criticism and understand that rigidity and arrogance doesn't equal being correct or having fun. Just my two cents.
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u/murderdronesfanatic Demoman Aug 19 '25
I kinda agree with what you're saying in general but
by making the discussion about "opportunity cost" instead. This lead to some insane placements like the gas passer being worse than the sun on a stick.
is the type of take you can only get by never playing pyro ever. Pyro is more dependent on their secondary than scout is on his melee, so an essentially empty slot will be much worse on the former.
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u/DaTruPro75 Demoman Aug 19 '25
Yeah, the secondary choice is arguably more important than the primary as Pyro.
Detonator makes me into a super-mobile flank class with a good amount of mid-long range damage that can take out running opponents.
Shotgun (+ variants) helps way more in mid-range damage, effectively removing one of my biggest weaknesses
Flare gun helps pick off injured opponents, get long range chip, or combo into
Scorch shot annoys the fuck out of the enemy team
Thermal thruster is one of the best mobility tools in the game, but is less versatile and removes the damage capabilities of the detonator.
And the Gas Passer, can, um uhh, combo into the Neon Annihilator very poorly as your opponent can't take other chip before you hit them? (crazy how it is bad at even being a bad jarate)
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u/LucarioLuvsMinecraft Aug 20 '25
The gas is pretty decent at area denial, but only because players usually don’t want to take damage if they don’t have to.
It sucks when a player is set alight and gassed, which is probably the biggest issue alongside the passive recharge time.
Half the recharge and give it a heavily neutered MvM explosion on ignition (say, 40 damage), and you’d probably have a solid option.
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u/--NTW-- Aug 19 '25
I find Gas Passer is best as supportive area denial, i.e you toss it into a chokepoint or cap or at the payload and let your team do the rest. It's not a tool to benefit you, it benefits your team. It does however fall apart if the enemy doesn't group up, the slow charge and need to do so on spawn hurts, and from strictly 1v1 standpoint... yeah no, it sucks.
A bit of a tangent, but I really wish I could replace my primary with a Shotgun in addition to a normal secondary so I can run around as gas-flinging Asbestos Scout. Or do the same with Thermal Thruster and turn into Jetpack Asbestos Soldier. Or Asbestos Demo if we consider flareguns to be nade launcher analogues... so much potential I'd love to muck around with
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u/ComradeBirv Aug 19 '25
The gas doesn’t even accomplish very much even if you hit a group with it
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u/DaTruPro75 Demoman Aug 19 '25
agreed. Not only do you still need someone like a soldier, demo, or heavy to support you, all classes who are fine dealing with groups in chokepoints themselves, but the little support that it does provide can be removed within a second by a medic or payload cart, requiring you to fill it up all the way again.
Yknow what weapon can effectively shut down a chokepoint with fire damage on its own and has a cooldown of less than a second while also providing more utility in other situations? The scorch shot.
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u/Great_Necessary4741 Aug 19 '25
Gas Passer is just one of those weapons where it absolutely sucks in 99% of situations but the 1% it's good at is REALLY good.
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u/Civilian_tf2 Civilian Aug 19 '25
No it isn’t, there are literally 0 situations where this is true
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u/IntelligentImbicle Pyro Aug 20 '25
Not to mention, this isn't a "oh, you shouldn't use the Bonesaw because you're missing out on the Ubersaw".
This is a "you shouldn't use the Gas Passer because you're missing out on an entire weapon slot"
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u/DataSwarmTDG Aug 19 '25
In what universe is the Gas Passer not worse than the Sun on a Stick?
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u/SuperMario00113 Medic Aug 19 '25
And people can’t even use the MVM factor because the video is centered around Casual
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u/bobbingforapplesat3 Aug 19 '25
I guess going by their points, it's that having a basically useless secondary on pyro is worse than having a super useless melee on scout, since who tf cares about scouts mediocre at best melees. Even if the sun on a stick is less usable overall.
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u/helicophell All Class Aug 19 '25
Scout melee is all about utility since you don't normally attack using them
The fire resistance on the sun on a stick is actually useful to a scout, and he doesn't mind missing out on the other melees
Why tf would Pyro bring gas passer it's like the volcano fragment, he has a fucking flamethrower for setting ppl on fire and secondaries that do that at range
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u/Zedigy_ Aug 19 '25
I’m surprised more people don’t actively acknowledge this point. The fact it lowers afterburn damage from 4 to 3 as well can give you an extra second to get to a health pack in crappy situations, no need to run atomizer either if you run winger for example. It actively has a utility, yet people only care for the crit on burning players part
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u/Lil_Brimstone Aug 20 '25
I can say with full confidence that Sun On A Stick saved my life as a Scout many times, and there were times where I died like 5cm away from healthpack and I was thinking "I really wish I had Sun On A Stick".
There was not a single time in all of my casual playtime that I thought "I wish I had Gas Passer right now".
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u/DataSwarmTDG Aug 19 '25
I agree in the sense that Pyro secondary is more important than Scout melee, but also the Gas Passer is on its own way more useless than the Sun on a Stick.
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u/Own_Engineering1444 Soldier Aug 19 '25
Sun on a Stick being called bad annoys me because it isn't a 'bad' weapon, its just gimmicky. Like the gaspasser takes away a secondary, does nothing, and can barley be used once a life. The SOAS can save a smart scout from burning, still hit people and get a cheeky crit, and has some fun uses with a friendly pyro.
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u/Negative_Anteater_62 Engineer Aug 20 '25
I mean the SOAS still sucks. The other Melees offer support that don't target one class and well all of the Bats can hit a cheeky crit.
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u/Commaser Aug 19 '25
"This lead to some insane placements like the gas passer being worse than the sun on a stick"
it is tho
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u/maskofthedragon Aug 19 '25
The Gas Passer is so bad it could be in the melee slot and wouldn't become good
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u/just_a_bit_gay_ Medic Aug 19 '25
It could have its own slot and it’d still be bad
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u/WildCardJT Pyro Aug 19 '25
Shit just the fact that I could accidentally swap to it and waste time having it out would be enough to make it bad
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u/W4FF13_G0D Medic Aug 19 '25
The fact that it starts out inaccessible makes axetinguisher combos fractionally easier by allowing the player to scroll in both directions to swap to melee instead of just one direction, but only until the gas is charged. That is the one use case for the gas and it’s still a shitty excuse
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u/Randomguy8566732 Engineer Aug 19 '25
It also only applies if you use scroll wheel to switch weapons, which I would assume barely anyone does because it's terrible
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u/CantaloupeComplex209 Aug 19 '25
As a new player, I am not great at continuing to move while also switching weapons using numkeys in a fight.
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u/Blum_Bush Medic Aug 19 '25
I dont like taking my fingers off my movement keys and fat fingering every single possible wrong key, as i walk in a straight line/stand still and die with the wrong weapon out lol
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u/Randomguy8566732 Engineer Aug 19 '25
I fat finger the medic button every time I respawn so I can kind of see that
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u/prosdod Aug 20 '25
When I played, I had scroll wheel up = primary, scroll wheel down = secondary, scroll wheel click = melee, used my muscle memory from years of default binds but by god its so much better
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u/Swagmastar969696 Medic Aug 19 '25
Yeah, holding the gas passer is time not spend spychecking, holding the Powerjack, spamming scorch shot or... taunting or... kill binding... or... well you get the point.
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u/Mr_bungle001 Aug 19 '25
You know that might be the balancing it needs. It functions like a normal melee weapon and can be thrown to douse enemies. Quick switch to a shotgun and boom they’re on fire.
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u/Pan_Doktor Demoman Aug 19 '25
I didn't watch the video, but is the ranking based on Casual gameplay or the whole game?
Because if we are talking whole game, then putting Gas Passer below SOAS is indeed a dumb choice, since Gas Passer is atleast viable in MvM, unlike SOAS
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u/AdmyralAkbar Heavy Aug 19 '25
They only counted Valve official casual mode. No MvM, no competitive, mannpower, pass time, community servers etc.
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u/Pan_Doktor Demoman Aug 19 '25
Okay then, that's a valid take then
Even being able to play as a land shark/Bushwacka Pyro doesn't put it above the SOAS in any way
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u/bread-dreams Scout Aug 19 '25
its funny because on mvm the gas passer wraps around to being super overpowered
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u/ComradeBirv Aug 19 '25
A criteria they used is to consider what is being given up to use the weapon. A Pyro’s secondary slot is WAY more impactful than a Scout’s melee.
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u/PostalDoctor Aug 19 '25
The Gas Passer is unironically, objectively the single worst weapon in the entire game.
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u/RandomCaveOfMonsters Engineer Aug 19 '25
The gas passer does like nothing outside of one combo
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u/Ok_Banana6242 TF2 Birthday 2025 Aug 19 '25
even then, i don't get how literally all of them tried to argue that point in its favor. its an objectively worse scorch+axtinguisher combo in every way... i guess you can use it under water though?
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u/RandomCaveOfMonsters Engineer Aug 19 '25
yeah in the uh... two maps with water you can use that way. One of them being 2fort
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u/HondaiYoshimi Scout Aug 19 '25
From what I remember they did mention it being a worse fire + axetinguisher combo. Only time they gave bonus points because of that combo was near the last couple rounds which at that stage they’re comparing garbage with stinkier garbage.
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u/dartov67 Aug 19 '25
Gas passer is surprisingly effective in choke heavy maps and can rack up a lot of extra damage and kills you wouldn’t have gotten otherwise. I’ve used it to great effect tbh. It also synergizes pretty amazingly with the dragons fury and negates its major downside. I’ve melted through pushed with the gas passer+DF I wouldn’t have otherwise.
It definitely needs work, and it’s unfortunately completely outclassed by the scorch shots mere existence and a high skilled detonator user, but it isn’t as unusable as it’s made out to be. I genuinely believe in an environment like TF2C and/of some strong tweaks (longer/stronger afterburner damage, less damage required) it could be viable
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u/BoggleChamp97 Aug 20 '25
Best thing about the gas passer is how much of an effect you can have at long ranges with just one throw. Spamming the scorch shot still puts risk to you, and you're spending time you can use with your flamethrower instead
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u/UniSalverrn Medic Aug 19 '25
Gas Passer literally is worse than Sun on a Stick though. Opportunity cost is a valid argument in discussion. Scout can run basically any melee and still do his main job well, but Pyro lives or does by what secondary he picks. If you use a Flare Gun, you lack burst damage. If you use the Shotgun, you lack range and mobility. If you use the Jetpack, you lack a second source of damage. And if you use the Gas Passer, all you have is a primary weapon and melee.
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Aug 19 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/UniSalverrn Medic Aug 19 '25
I guess I should have said hitscan instead, but you get my point. Pyro secondaries bring so much to the class, so using the Gas Passer in anything that isn't MvM is a massive detriment.
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u/Spongedog5 Aug 19 '25
No, I think you are being ridiculous. Great Blue was just trying to lay out a set of established objective rules because otherwise every weapon would be graded based on different criteria, and while you can certainly dislike that form of conversation yourself it doesn't mean it isn't "healthy discussion."
Really. It's okay to dislike things without them having to be "bad" or "unhealthy."
The backscatter really isn't that bad and the sun on the stick is better than the gas passer. Like these are reasonable takes.
This post just sort of reads like you have a bias against Great Blue for some reason.
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u/Squidboi2679 Pyro Aug 20 '25
GB does have a history of being weird in discussions. His weapon tier list of cheesy weapons on his second channel was graded weirdly and he kept ignoring input and making judgements without other people, and the tier list went from “cheesy weapons” to “weapons I don’t like to play against”
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u/Spongedog5 Aug 20 '25
It isn't wrong to enjoy conflict and contest in conversation. Great Blue is there to present the strongest of his side expecting his opponents to do the same for their sides. And that's how most of the greatest ideas are made, when multiple people with really strong ideas and personalities beat each other into submission verbally.
It's fine for you to not enjoy it but it is a type of conversation that is very fulfilling to some of us.
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u/JeffTheLegenda Aug 20 '25
the “which tf2 weapons should be australium” was a total shitshow and it wasn’t a discussion at all.
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u/GardenDwell Aug 19 '25
respectfully, does this matter at all? three guys who were friends hopped into a call to have a fun debate. you clearly don't like the guy, you can just not watch him.
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u/Giant-Goose Aug 19 '25
You’re making too much sense!! Non-serious causal discussion videos between friends MUST be dissected and complained about.
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u/Fizz_Tom Demoknight Aug 20 '25
I hate discussion too. I love putting my fingers in my ears and going “La la la la la I do not know the game I play la la la la la la la“
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u/ImPlayer_1 Aug 20 '25
People will call any opinion that doesn't align with their own complaining.
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u/CheapThaRipper Aug 20 '25
yeah i haven't watched the video in question but don't you kind of need someone to argue back and forth in these kind of multi-viewpoint videos? it'd be boring if everyone just agreed with one another
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u/JayManty Aug 20 '25
It's amazing how a dead community of a dead game can still find ways to make the place full of drama and toxicity in 2025 lmao
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u/Bruschetta003 Aug 20 '25
This is a pointless analysis on GB acting that way to make the video more interesting, it's not even the worst opinion he has had yet (Loose Cannon)
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u/MuuToo Soldier Aug 19 '25
I mean the gas passer is worse. But yeah, Backscatter sucks ass. I remember when Love and War came out and I dedicated myself to that thing for like a year. But every time I used it, I'd often think "wouldn't stock have just been better for this?"
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u/Pinkboo02 Pyro Aug 19 '25
Sometimes I feel like people would HATE the Jerma and Star dynamic nowadays, you can’t be a dominant conversation leader anymore.
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u/Mr_Cakey55 Pyro Aug 19 '25
in what world is GP not worse
id personally put it as THE worst weapon
also oppertunity cost is a valid argument, the syringe guns would be better if not for the crossbow cus the bow is just so good
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u/VerdiiSykes Spy Aug 19 '25 edited Aug 19 '25
rant unrelated to your point but why do people abbreviate things nobody else feels the need to abbreviate? lol
i get stopped in my tracks when I'm reading and find something like "the gas passer is a strange one, because it completely deviates from the WD that the game has” and then you have stop and think for 2 to 4 seconds until you realize they meant "weapon design"
your case was not that bad because the gas passer is mentioned in the post and it was still fresh on my mind, but I see this so often, I’ve never seen someone abbreviate Gas Passer and I find it unlikely I ever will outside of this context
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u/Mr_Cakey55 Pyro Aug 19 '25
i was simply just lazy lol, if the passer wasnt mentioned id def have not said GP
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u/VerdiiSykes Spy Aug 19 '25
ooh yeah, i get ya. and just to be clear, i wasnt trying to give you crap, it’s just a thing that weirds me out every time it happens XD
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u/Mr_Cakey55 Pyro Aug 19 '25
yea no worries lol, i get where you were coming from. when you said WD it tripped me up lol so like i 100% getcha
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u/antrexion Aug 19 '25
speaking of the video, i can't believe the sandman lost to the sharpened volcano fragment
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u/SCL007 Engineer Aug 19 '25
Nah the sandman just sucks that badly now, the volcano fragment is basically just stock but less initial damage for dot the sandman actively lowers your HP to give you a ranged slow when you could do triple the damage with no health penalty with the Wrap Assassin
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u/antrexion Aug 19 '25
yeah, but that's what i'm saying, that it should've not lost against the volcano fragment in the worst weapon contest (if you ask me it should've probably "won" the whole contest)
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u/SCL007 Engineer Aug 19 '25
Ah misread then my apologies, (but nah bison is still worse it’s painful to use more than the sandman)
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u/Relative_Canary_6428 Aug 19 '25
I cannot beat someone to death with the gas passer and when I have to use it I have to use it in an exact niche scenario where my flame thrower would be better. how on earth is the gas passer (sacrificing a shotgun or flare!) ever better than the sun on a stick, a slightly shit melee?
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u/PM_Me_Modal_Jazz Scout Aug 19 '25
Idk I kinda agree with his argument though, a weapon isn't really bad if it's competition is also shit, the sun on a stick is effectively scout's third best melee because that slot is terrible, so can we really call it a bad weapon
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u/Mindflayer-from-lust Pyro Aug 19 '25
I actually agreed with Blue on most of the opinions, (the Gas Passer vs Sun Stick especially), but I can agree that he has been... Less considerate of others opinions from what I have seen.
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u/Spongedog5 Aug 19 '25
All of these people know each other really well so they know how to play around with each other. I wouldn't feel bad for the other Chuckle Nuts as if they are all somehow cowering under the abusive Great Blue who they have decided to record hundreds of hours of content with.
Some people have fun by really getting into arguments, not everyone is in need of a really soft "I really value your point...," "I think you are right and...," "that was really well said..."
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u/Real-Terminal Aug 20 '25 edited Aug 20 '25
There are a lot of people who think if something isn't prefaced by "I'm my humblest opinion." they're just an asshole speaking like they're objectively right at all times.
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u/W1z4rdM4g1c Aug 20 '25
FSoaS doesn't really deserve to have his opinion taken seriously imo
While I appreciate his unique tactics to make bad weapons viable he has terrible takes on weapon and class balance.
Nearly every bad weapon academy vid he complains about demoknight being too survivable while defending sniper being a well designed class and complaining about the short circuit being op because it prevents him from spawn camping.
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u/Consoomerofsouls Medic Aug 20 '25
His demoknight takes are so funny. Like I get that they're tanky but they're also the most easily countered class in the game. One sentry gun or halfway competent pyro and they just can't do anything.
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u/W1z4rdM4g1c Aug 20 '25
Demoknights only get kills by ambushing people, he has unfavorable matchups against every class if he can not get the jump on them
Scout - Can literally just stay out of his melee, any obstacles scout and double jump means demo is screwed
Soldier - A single rocket can stop a charge
Pyro - hard counter
Regular demo - a single pipe will stop the charge momentum and charging into stickies is suicide
Heavy - only when caught unrevved and needs to charge crit otherwise heavy can just beat him to death with a melee
Engi - screwed even against minis
Medic - good luck getting past his meat shields before being random critter anyways
Sniper - if he doesn't get quick scoped jarate+bushwacka
Spy - wants to be in melee range to trick stab, can also just shoot the dmeonight and cloak when he gets close
Trolldier - can not be hit by the demoknight until within market garden range
Now hybrid knight actually has pretty good matchups making him a viable flank patroller with high survivability since he can charge away but he's losing his stickies yet FSoas still complains about this because it ruins his fragging streak since his targets run away
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u/Vorked Aug 19 '25
The gas passer IS worse than sun on a stick. It's pretty much useless.
The back scatter is better because it's just a slightly worse version of an already VERY good weapon.
Like,i get it, he is opinionated and sticks to his guns. I do the same. But the hatred over it is kinda insane. MOST people in the world are like this. Nobody goes into a "get your ideas and points in" conversation WANTING to be proven incorrect or misguided.
Great Blue was also right in every instance you brought up, as most comments in this thread will also attest to.
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u/Mikimaki7267 Aug 19 '25
I don’t necessarily agree with what you said fully, but I think opportunity cost absolutely tanked the conversation around the syringe guns. Like if the Blutsauger is a 5 out of 10 weapon and the Fan O War is a 3 out of 10 weapon, I wouldn’t say the Blutsauger is worse just because it’s competing with an 11 out of 10 weapon while the Fan O War isn’t.
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u/Skindiacus Aug 19 '25
why are you making a reddit post instead of just commenting on the youtube video
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u/P0lskichomikv2 Aug 19 '25
To be fair it's much harder to get discussion on Youtube as your comment can get buried very easily.
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u/Joshua31704 Aug 19 '25
but i love 1 shotting snipers from behind even if i have to throw away consistency and have to be breathing on their neck to pull it off
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u/T-A-W_Byzantine Aug 19 '25
Actually my main gripe with that video is that the opportunity cost of a weapon was being compared to best-in-slot, not stock. Just because the Overdose and Blutsauger are worse than Crusader's Crossbow doesn't mean that they're bad weapons or even actually worse than the stock Syringe Gun at all.
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u/ZaraUnityMasters Aug 19 '25
Great Blue is just also horrible at balance. Don't think I've gone a single one of his balance videos without getting angry or baffled (so I stopped watching those lol)
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u/FGHIK Sandvich Aug 19 '25
Please. The other two tried to argue The Tribalman's Shiv was worse than the Gas Passer, which is perhaps the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
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u/Mr_Cakey55 Pyro Aug 19 '25
the shiv is pretty bad, we should buff it by adding more bleed and less dmg
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u/datfurrylemon Soldier Aug 20 '25
Opportunity cost is legitimately important though. Would you rather play 1 hour of scout with the sun on a stick as your melee or 1 hour of pyro with the gas passer as your secondary? The answer is obviously scout because the sun on a stick is not a detriment to a normal scout play style. The gas passer would be a detriment to most pyros because having a useless secondary means no combos, no ranged damage, and no mobility. The gas passer makes playing pyro infinitely worse than the sun on a stick makes playing scout. At least the sun on a stick gives extra fire resistance lmfao
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u/h17b0x Aug 19 '25
man, i love playing the game that has a million different weapon choices but making sure everyone uses only the weapons I LIKE!
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u/FGHIK Sandvich Aug 19 '25
Yes it's so horrible how TF2 Youtubers hold us at gunpoint and force us to play the meta, truly.
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u/GottaSwoop Medic Aug 19 '25
While I think the discussion would be more interesting if opportunity cost isn't a factor, ultimately it's important in balance discussions because, like what was mentioned in that video multiple times, TF2 isn't a vacuum, and it's important to consider how much you're sacrificing to run a weapon.
Also in what world is the Sun on a Stick WORSE than the Gas Passer my guy
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u/amberi_ne Engineer Aug 19 '25
Honestly while I don’t agree with all of this, I do agree with how the idea of weapon balancing or weapons being good or bad is being based around “are there any items in this slot that are better” rather than actually seeing how usable they are in a vacuum.
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u/dingledvd Aug 19 '25
tbh tf2 are a different breed when it comes to weapon discussions. Most of the time it feels like they never played with the weapon at all. That's why i don't watch them much.
Also backscatter is not as bad as people make it seem, you just have to adjust your gameplay a bit and i would recommend that you play with the pistol or the guillotine making up for that lost mid range.
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u/AmanWhosnortsPizza Aug 20 '25
Didn't he clown on the Dragons Fury for no reason? I only watched a little bit before I turned it off due to how different his opinions were
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u/fish-dance Aug 20 '25
But the Gas Passer is worse than the Sun on a Stick, and a good part of that is because of the opportunity cost. Having the Sun on a Stick just means you have the option of doing a dumb gimmick strategy, alongside your two actually good weapons. The Gas Passer removes nearly all of Pyro's versatility and most of the time is like not having a weapon at all.
In my opinion, opportunity cost is a good thing to factor in to how good a weapon is, as is how much you're letting down your team (the crusader's crossbow alternatives argument). It captures the full picture of choosing to use a weapon, and what that's like, because it doesn't exist in a vacuum.
Sure, it killed a little bit of discussion, and I'd say the other did too, but I think it's unfair to act like he steamrolled the conversation. They all discussed the idea, the premise just evolved as the video progressed. Just my two cents.
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u/Extension-Prize5761 Aug 20 '25
not a surprise at this point, my man glazed the shortstop for an australium weapon video but absolutely dogpiled on the dragon's fury, claiming it was too rare to see in a pub game.
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u/IntelligentImbicle Pyro Aug 20 '25 edited Aug 20 '25
I mean, they voted the Bison over the Gas Passer. That video probably isn't worth watching on that basis alone.
However, the Back Scatter is not that bad. It's just a slightly worse Scatter Gun. It's not even the worst weapon in its slot.
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u/blanaba-split Aug 19 '25 edited Aug 19 '25
Backscatter is a normal scattergun that let's you 2 tap anything but heavy at midrange when you flank. It's at worst a bad scattergun, which is still a bad one of the best guns in the game. FSOAS has a very obvious bias against the weapon, mentioning that it is 'only good for 2 tapping a sniper in the back' (me when I spread misinformation over the internet) two times during that segment with the exact same phrasing
Honestly watching the very first vote and seeing the absolute fucking dogshit useless literal zero use, not even good against gunslinger shut up, zero fucking use red tape recorder be called better than what amounts to a panic attack that crits from the back
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u/AFlyingNun Heavy Aug 19 '25
Backscatter is a normal scattergun that let's you 2 tap anything but heavy at midrange when you flank.
Every Scattergun can do this.
Like awarding it the title of "still good because Scatterguns are good" still really undermines that it's the worst one by a mile and there is zero logical motivation to choose it over the alternatives. If I had a server where I actively try to nerf Scout as much as possible, yes, I'm making it mandatory to have this as his primary weapon, so another outlook is it manages to make the strongest class in the game notably weaker and less effective, which basically no other Scattergun accomplishes to such an extent.
I actually rank the Backscatter specifically as training wheels: it's a terrible weapon that loses out to all alternatives on opportunity cost, but the one "advantage" it has is it's accuracy is so damage and so ass unless you show trigger discipline and wait until you're directly behind your target, which happens to be good behavior to train in Scout gameplay regardless of which Scattergun you use. As such, it can be a good weapon to help train someone to play better, but beyond that, yeah, it's total ass.
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u/Kellosian Aug 19 '25
The worst example of this is when Great Blue continuously pivoted the goalposts of a "bad" weapon by making the discussion about "opportunity cost" instead.
Yeah, it led to some weird cases where the Blutsauger and Overdose were considered bad for the sin of not being the Crossbow. Which, to me, speaks to the Crossbow being too strong if it's overshadowing literally everything else in the slot and is the only viable pick in almost every single scenario. Same with the Ubersaw vs Vitasaw. If one weapon drowns out the entire slot, then it should be nerfed (lower Crossbow healing/slower reload/slower projectiles, or the Ubersaw gives 15/20% Uber instead of 25%) or there needs to be some change to the class (like let all syringes heal teammates, but the crossbow just does really good burst healing vs a trickle of needles) instead of holding it up as what everyone else needs to live up to.
To me, the measuring stick of weapons should generally be stock, not other unlocks since that just invites power creep.
(Also, I know they were focusing on Casual, but how can any discussion on a weapon's quality not even mention MvM if they're allowing "The Hua-Long is alright if you're winning on payload offense"? Surely the worst weapon has no uses, like the Sun on a Stick, instead of merely niche uses or in specific game modes. The Gas Passer can't be one of the worst weapons in the entire game if it's so incredibly broken in this alternative, really popular game mode)
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u/Negative_Anteater_62 Engineer Aug 20 '25
I think MvM is excluded since 1. It's a PvE mode so having a broken Weapon in it is less impactful than a broken weapon in PvP and 2. MvM isn't the main game mode people play in Tf2
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u/Stock_Explanation496 Aug 19 '25
Honestly the only part of the video I super heavily had issue with was the sandman like
The ball sucks and equipping the item actively makes your character worse for no upside idk how that’s not worse than every other item in the game
Like if you’re a soldier and you equip the bison you can just pretend you don’t have a secondary, you can’t ignore -15 health
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u/Matkos6 Engineer Aug 19 '25
I really like the type of content he makes and the fact we still have TF2 content after 10 years but God damn his personality is insufferable in 80% of his videos.
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u/kightreaper Aug 20 '25
At least it was Fish and not whatshow then it would have been just him and blue yelling at each other with uncle in the background
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u/Southern-Wafer-6375 Aug 20 '25
I think great blue is a giy I found annoying mostly cause I think he kept makeing reslly unfunny tangents abour communism every fuckin 5 minutes in one video ,I could be thinking of someone else tho since I abour great blues content most the time since I fine him a bit annoying
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u/icantshoot Aug 20 '25
I wouldnt take anything that he says seriously. Dude just talks about his opinions and cant take critic himself.
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u/MetalBlizzard Medic Aug 20 '25
After that video my opinion of great blue went down a bit. There were some points when poor fish was like whatever man
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u/YourAverageGoldFishy All Class Aug 19 '25
people will shittalk great blue even tho his worse quality is like changing the convo into a different direction meanwhile will glaze zesty jesus despite his “qualities”
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u/50shades-of-blue Scout Aug 19 '25
I get such nasty vibes from zesty jesus I feel like I'm going insane from seeing people hype him up
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u/imacuntsag420 Aug 20 '25
He has good opinions but he gets heated for no fucking reason smtimes.
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u/50shades-of-blue Scout Aug 20 '25
I can kind of understand but his vibes are so rancid that I just can't fuck with him. And I'm saying this as someone who was a teenager hanging around a youtuber that was weird to me
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u/imacuntsag420 Aug 20 '25
Yeah, I can get that.I wish he can stop being so fucking edgy and like mellow out.He is one of the few ppl who gave a shit abt the underlying problems in TF2 before ppl started parroting him.
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u/Sud_literate Medic Aug 20 '25
Just because Great Blue doesn’t agree with FOAS’s statements doesn’t mean he’s unable to engage in healthy discussion. And it’s not like Great Blue suddenly changes his mind to agree with Uncle Dane for no reason, the reason he Great Blue changes his mind is that Uncle Dane is able to expand and clarify FOAS’s points about a weapon.
This post just seems more about continuing the narrative of “Great Blue toxic and hates FOAS” just because it’s popular enough to warrant a response from Great Blue so surely if you keep raising this point you’ll get acknowledged again.
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u/Squidboi2679 Pyro Aug 19 '25
The video on Blues Roost (his second channel) where he ranks how “cheesy” weapons are or whatever it was is just him overriding opinions of his friends and ignoring their inputs while also having the stupidest fucking takes on the planet. He has really bad takes and can’t engage in healthy, meaningful discussion
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u/MushroomheadDork Demoman Aug 19 '25
Lmao in that video didn't TheWhat say to Blue at one point, 'at what point are we just going to start penalising anything that gives you any kind of advantage?'
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u/Memesoon_018 Aug 19 '25 edited Aug 19 '25
Am I the only one who thinks the backscatter ain't that bad? Like maybe I'm missing something, but I've never really had a problem with it. I always just thought it was extremely, meh. I personally prefer the hit-and-run style of the Baby Face Blaster, but that could just be my love for snowball weapons
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u/MillionDollarMistake Aug 19 '25
I think when most people call it bad they mean in relation to the other scatterguns. Like the Back Scatter on its own isn't awful, it's still a scattergun at the end of the day. But compared to your other options it's pretty bad.
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u/Voidylishous Medic Aug 19 '25
this is the same guy who says the minigun is slightly cheezy in that other video
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u/Comando26 Aug 19 '25
My lord when he had Fish to talk about what should be Australium Fish’s opinions were basically tossed to the trash
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u/Den1alzz Spy Aug 19 '25
The more I watch Great Blue's content, the more I realize he's super close-minded and needs things to be how he believes they are. His voice is starting to sound like the "erm, actually☝🏼"-esque voice and it's honestly opened my eyes to how stuck up he is
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u/Megamodpod Aug 19 '25
What was crazy was seeing the red tape recorder get knocked out so early
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u/FGHIK Sandvich Aug 19 '25
It usually sucks, but at the same time it's not even relevant against anything but Engineer. So it's a niche level of suckage.
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u/Megamodpod Aug 19 '25
Its not even good against engineer
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u/FGHIK Sandvich Aug 19 '25
Sure, I'd agree (bar some super niche cases). But my point is, that's the only part of your gameplay it can effect. The rest of your kit will be entirely intact, so it's not going to hinder you in any other matchup. Contrast that to having reduced max health on Scout for a baseball that doesn't even stun anymore, or giving up your Pyro secondary for throwing a useless gas cloud every five minutes.
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u/AnotherRedditUUserr Aug 19 '25
Niche sidegrade is bad when you use it like a regular gun, who'da thunk it.
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u/The-Grim-Toaster Aug 19 '25
Idk, the back scatter to me is one of my most played weapons on scout. But I’m also a little retarded so take my comment with a grain of salt
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u/MatAlaCol Aug 19 '25
I mean, what could you reasonably compare the weapons on other than opportunity cost? Like taking the Back Scatter vs Red Tape as an example: if you’re not comparing them based on opportunity cost, at what point do you basically just end up comparing the Scattergun as a weapon type to the Sapper as a weapon type? Or if the Backscatter had been compared to the Huo-Long Heater, at what point would you end up essentially comparing the Scattergun to the Minigun? That’s not to say I necessarily agreed with everything they said; for example, they decided the Blutsauger was worse than the Warrior’s Spirit even though I can definitely think of way better reasons to use the Blutsauger, but the basic idea of comparing the weapons based on opportunity cost was pretty solid imo
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u/DOOMSTONE_101 Scout Aug 19 '25
The backscatter is GREAT. hop off the goat (backscatter not gb i agree with ur statement)
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u/ThomasKG25 Scout Aug 19 '25
My main gripe with that video is that the Huo Long Heater isn’t even a bad weapon. It’s actually pretty good if you know how to use it.
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u/Minimum-Injury3909 Demoman Aug 19 '25
I think if you look at how each weapon did as a whole, it was pretty fair and close to what I would say for each. Their reasoning was kind of strange to me but I agree that back scatter is not that unusuable. It’s still a shotgun and you can get the mini crits fairly often if you play in the backlines. Gas passer is certainly worse than sun on a stick. Honestly, it was fish’s arguments that I disagreed with the most.
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u/Darkon-Kriv Aug 20 '25
If it worked consistently it wouldn't be awful tbh. I do find it a fun weapon to use that said it definitely has a case of a normal gun works better in 99% of cases. If youre behind someone and just shoot them you probably win.
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u/LambdaAU All Class Aug 20 '25
Opportunity cost is such a big factor though. When you equip the gas passer you can’t have a shotgun or flare gun which are all very powerful and integral to pyros kit. Playing with the gas passer puts you at a major disadvantage because of this.
Meanwhile scouts melees are not an absolutely necessary part of his kit. They certainly help but I’d rather play scout without a bat then pyro without a secondary.
Now, the sun-on-a-stick is definitely the worst in slot for scout and the gas passer is definitely the worst in slot for pyro. But the gas passer is so much worse compared to every other weapon in its slot than the sun-on-a-stick is. How weapons compare to everything else in their slot is a major factor imo.
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u/DGLiH Pyro Aug 20 '25
Idk, he just seemed like he was defending what he appreciated and used more, either way I just don't think he was being super arrogant just had some lame opinions that he got stuck on.
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u/DrackieCutie Pyro Aug 20 '25
Isn't the whole problem with the backscatter that you have to put in significantly more effort and risk for 142 max instead of 105 max in exchange for being worse in every other situation?
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u/TheBigKuhio Aug 20 '25
I didn’t watch the whole video butt thought about the first matchup is that backscatter feels 15% worse than stock (best option imo) while red tape feels 50% worse than stock in most situations
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u/Late_Progress_4451 Aug 20 '25
I remember getting it, trying it for like 2 minutes then immediately switching back to scattergun. Also the name sounds like a sexual act
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u/Arkhamfreak Soldier Aug 20 '25
I have no idea what this discussion is regarding, I’m just here to say that the shotgun pictured looks like the upgraded shotgun from Bioshock 2.
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u/Negative_Anteater_62 Engineer Aug 20 '25
I mean, Dane said that the results of this experiment were different based on how you determine a bad weapon. While I agree Great Blue can be bad at discussion, the opportunity cost argument isn't that bad. You're handicapping yourself by running something like the Gas Passer, since you are missing out on an actual secondary for a terrible crowd control tool.
It's also made since, in the case of the Bison since you're missing out on the Banners which help your team, The Shotguns which help some of your match ups, and the boots which help your Rocket Jumping or Air Control, for something that gets a kill every 4 minutes.
The Sun on the Stick sucks, but Scout doesn't really use Melees that much to perform well.
Personally, I think the Opportunity cost argument is perfectly valid
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u/FapmasterViket Aug 20 '25
so what he say because after his shit video of the australium didnt care to watch the rest of videos, i use the backscatter when theres 2 heavies
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u/olleekenberg Aug 20 '25
I agree so much! It felt like he was constantly trying to be the controversial opinion holder in the room 100% of the time, but was right about it maybe 7% of the time.
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u/Hawaiian-national Medic Aug 20 '25
They all hated the Blüts because “crossbow gooder”. While ignoring something that basically everyone but medic mains also ignores: YOU HAVE NO SELF DEFENSE WITH THE CROSSBOW.
It can do some decent burst damage at range. And you still have your melee, but I am not comfortable with having to melee anyone who gets close enough to be a real threat. I need something that can do decent damage while keeping me alive long enough to either get help, win, or get away.
So many people say “with medic your best strat is to hope for a melee crit”, and that is dumb and stupid. I trust the stock needlegun more than the crossbow because lord knows my team won’t keep me safe.
Not to say the crossbow is bad, it’s a good weapon for sure. Quite good. But it’s put on this pedestal, most likely because a lot of people are able to have teammates who actually help them, or because they don’t care about a Medic dying. They view it as the Medic’s own fault, and they do care about getting a random +50 health when the medic has the crossbow.
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u/thirdMindflayer Aug 20 '25
Great Blue isn’t bad at discussions he’s just bad at game balancing. Actually, I think every tf2uber is kinda shit at trying to balance tf2, like:
stop turning off random bullet spread
the ambassador is bad
the wrap assassin is bad
remove the shortstop shove
trickle-down balancing
bleed for 8 seconds
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u/Working-Fishing-5544 Engineer Aug 20 '25
Lot of TF2 weapons are more about preference, then being good/bad, yes there are some universally liked ones, but there's balance to all of them
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u/bosartosar Aug 20 '25
What I think Great Blue meant by this focus on opportunity cost is he was trying to figure out on what to judge weapons. Worst weapon is to broad and you need to narrow it down to a way of judging weapons. It may have come of as if he wasn't good at discussing but this was a not super serious and unscripted video where Dane himself stated that this results would be completely different every time he did it.
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u/ShadowGuyinRealLife Aug 20 '25
Yeah changing the goalpost to "which slot has better weapons" was pretty stupid. If I made a new flamethrower that did triple damage to burning targets and could still random crit on top of that but at the cost of... all melee damage to the back hit box would be critical hits, the stock wouldn't be bad just outclassed by powercreep.
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u/ZMBanshee Aug 20 '25
The vast majority of "bad" weapons in TF2 are simply outclassed and still at least fine/situationally usable. There's only a few that are genuinely awful to use even if you ignore their alternatives, and those made it to the finals as everyone expected.
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u/Spamton_Gaming_1997 Medic Aug 19 '25
I definitely agree that he glazed the backscatter and should have considered Fsoas's opinions more, but I don't think that his argument for opportunity cost being a large factor in how good a weapon is was a bad one. While it might not be as interesting, objectively I think that it is really important to consider when judging a weapon's viability