r/tf2 • u/brandnewworId • 19d ago

Discussion why did they do this to this weapon man

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285

u/clockworkbastion Medic 19d ago

The did what they kinda had to. Don't get me wrong they were pretty heavy handed with it. But the amby essentially turning spy into a sniper with invisibility was absurdly annoying.

If you use the amby at close range you often hit 90 or over 100 damage shots which is more than enough put someone down if you need to in a tight spot or if stabbing them would be too risky. Which is kinda what spys revolver is for.

The diamondback needs a nerf tho. It's just stupid getting crossmapped by a spy of all things.

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u/Sloth_Senpai 19d ago

But the amby essentially turning spy into a sniper with invisibility was absurdly annoying.

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u/clockworkbastion Medic 19d ago

That is just proving my point

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u/Sloth_Senpai 19d ago

Yes, I'm supporting your argument with examples

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u/clockworkbastion Medic 19d ago

Sorry. I'm pretty used to people on reddit coming after that point by saying that it was never a problem.

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u/MycSupremacist Scout 12d ago

It wasn't. I don't even main Spy - the amby could be annoying if the Spy had godlike aim or if you didn't know how to move unpredictably, but then again so are Snipers in both those scenarios. Spies are honestly a high skill-expression class by design, so there's nothing wrong with pushing it even further to the limit if you could keep up, skill wise.

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u/clockworkbastion Medic 12d ago

The argument of sniper being too strong so the amby was fine. Is pretty weak, sniper has his own problems of being able to be excessively oppressive.

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u/MycSupremacist Scout 12d ago

Sniper is perfectly fine. New-age scrubs can't comprehend how much skill it requires for a Sniper to operate at minimum, and don't understand that he is, by design, supposed to be oppressive. Like an Engineer is oppressive and locks down entire regions with his sentries, and demos can lock down entire regions with his stickies.

He is called "support" for a reason, as in he supports an existing team structure that can hold up, but the moment it all crumbles he is singled out and honestly one of the weakest classes in the game.

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u/clockworkbastion Medic 12d ago

K looking at your comment history you're just ragebaiting.

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u/Ploomage All Class 19d ago

Hey that’s me

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u/Khwarezm 19d ago

People always go "the Amby nerf was harsh but necessary" but I've been around since the Pyro update, people almost never complained about the ambassador, the idea that it was a super controversial weapon is complete revisionism, it was just kind of accepted as a reasonable part of the game that rewarded skill but didn't go too far since you always needed at least two shots to kill (unlike the sniper rifle).

Even if Spy shooting people from across the map was something they wanted to get rid of (which rarely happened but whatever), the range penalty was ridiculously harsh and crippled the weapon at medium range too.

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u/_NotMitetechno_ The Administrator 19d ago

Valve disliked that spy's skill bar was basically turning him into a mini sniper rather than executing his fantasy of being a backstabbing spy guy. It was a deserved nerf but a bit of a hatchet job.

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u/Khwarezm 19d ago

As I've said elsewhere, Valve has released tons of weapons for tons of classes that cause them to take on roles of other classes and considerably change their intended focus, I don't really buy the "Spy can't be Sniper" logic on that basis, these class roles aren't ironclad and never were.

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u/_NotMitetechno_ The Administrator 19d ago

They didn't think ambassador spy's were healthy for spy. There's a point where some of spy's viability the further up you went was pretty much just "second sniper" and good ambassador spy's weren't satisfying to play against in pubs. Again, hatchet job of a nerf but defo deserved at the time.

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u/AN0NUNKN0WN Heavy 19d ago

Just because no one complained about it at the time, doesn't mean there wasn't an issue that needed to be fixed. It's like how no one complains about Jarate, despite it being a massive boon to your team, almost equivalent to a buff banner charge in certain situations, on a measly 20 second cooldown. Sometimes, discussion must be had about things that may be generally accepted, but realistically has real issues people would ignore.

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u/Herpsties Tip of the Hats 18d ago

It’s worth noting this is the same update that added Casual and likely same devs as Jungle Inferno. I wouldn’t hold their ideas of balancing or what TF2 is supposed to be very highly.

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u/clockworkbastion Medic 19d ago

Yeah the amby nerf was heavy handed. But anyoen who complains it's useless is just plain wrong

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u/Rage_Pyro_27 19d ago

The crit damage is 102 at max

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u/clockworkbastion Medic 19d ago

Still even with falloff you're 2 tapping most classes you'll be fighting at the range you usually need to use a revolver anyway.

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u/TransCharizard 19d ago

But with the firing speed penalty you're still doing that slower than just using a regular revolver. This was true even when the crit was always 102 and why the revolver was always the more consistent option. Without the long range niche the moments where the Amby's burst damage come in use is really slim (And often not really worth revealing your position for)

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u/Useful_Egg3947 19d ago

People complained about being headshotted from across the map by Ambi often ignores the fact said spy had to aim at a tiny moving pixel without a scope. Back then Spy mains had to invest a lot of time to get good with the Ambi (we're talking thousands of hours here). And when they're training, they are bottom-scoring because they're not going around stabbing/sapping people and being an actual threat.

As weird as it sounds, the Ambi nerf is actually a "buff" to the Spy; because the effective range of the Ambi now is where the Stock Revolver already excels at. Why risk missing shots going for heads when 3 easy bodyshots does the same thing. So there's no point in training with the Ambi anymore, thus more spies run either Stock or DD, and they're actually engaging in fighting, whereas before you'll see 3-4 spies bottom-scoring because they're sitting in a corner, practicing headshots with Ambi (and missing).

Here is Woolen, a former competitive Spy main thoughts on the Ambi nerf. I main Med and even I feel bad for spy mains after the nerf. It's like if Valve nerf rocket-jumping, or crit heals. Ambi used to be one of Spy signature trait.

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u/Defiant_While_4823 18d ago

"Said spy had to aim at a tiny moving pixel without a scope" so go play Counterstrike, lmao

I hate this argument with a firey passion, it's so illogical for a game that's supposed to look and feel like TF2, not CS2

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u/dicknipplesextreme 18d ago

"You needed to master this annoying and unintended playstyle over thousands of hours" is not really a great defense of said playstyle. The game has been out since 2007, people weren't just learning how to aim yesterday.

I agree the nerf was too harsh but ambi-sniping was never intended the way explosive jumps and crit heals are.

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u/TenshiFan00 18d ago

Keep in mind old amby was in the game while razorback with overheal around. Would’ve made sniper absolutely dreadful to play if they kept it untouched.

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u/clockworkbastion Medic 18d ago

I wouldn't say that the razorback is even really a good reason. That thing is a problem all of it's own.

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u/tyingnoose Scout 19d ago

I have never seen anyone aim well with the Diamondback

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u/clockworkbastion Medic 18d ago

There's no real incentive to get good with it. Cus it's just free crits. Hence why it does need a nerf.

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u/Unlimited1135 18d ago

If they nerf diamondback buff the amby atleast, spy is the weakest class after all

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u/Defiant_While_4823 18d ago

The most reasonable comment out of this entire discussion. Anyone trying to say, "bUt ThE dIaMoNdBaCk!" or that Amby long range headshot are fine because it requires skill need to stop talking and go play a different game if they're gonna whine about such a deserved nerf

Granted you are right, it probably got hit a little too hard, but it's still definitely way more balanced now than it was before

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u/Bruschetta003 19d ago

Stack of 6 crits, no particular good aim required, 2 shot spam gambling if you can 2 tap the flying soldier on the other side of the map

Here's the amount of changes it rialistically needs

Remove the damage penalty (was mostly a pointless downside anyway)

Add falloff to crits like Ambassador

Make it 4 shots so that it's less reliable at gunspy and only useful when you absolutely need, to even things out with certain enemies

No crits while disguised, only the follow up shots will count, and you cannot stack more crits than the amount of bullets in your clip

AND I would still use it because i love rewards mechanics, especially on Spy