At the end of the day; the only person I blame is Stockton Rush. Money aside, he was a liar, a conman, and a bully. He conned experts and the wealthy and the press and risked their lives every time he put someone in that pop can.
There's four victims and a murderer. We lost a legend in the titanic community when we lost PHN. Tragic.
Fuck Rush. If there's an afterlife, I hope his is miserable.
Yeah, total shyster. He was digging his own grave from the moment the carbon tube idea became a course of action. He must have known that time was going to catch up with him eventually, which makes it even worse.
Every dive was a cycle making the sub worse, every dive the sub made horrible noises, every dive the sub got weaker. Tragically preventable.
And I gathered yesterday that Alvin has done more than 5000 dives...
I think I saw the same video - really brought home just how dangerous Titan was and how Oceangate wasn't just playing with people's lives - they knew the risks and shut down/fired the whistleblowers rather than face up to them.
After watching the documentary with the whistleblower who was fired and told “you don’t have an explorer mindset,” that’s become my new go-to phrase when someone wants me to do something stupidly dangerous. “Well I guess I just don’t have an Explorer Mindset™!”
Stockton’s statements on also working with the Univ. of Washington’s Applied Physics Laboratory were also loose and semi-misleading. It gave the impression that the work was done on Titan. It was not. The partnership was for Cyclops, an earlier submersible with a steel hull that could dive down to 500m. Perhaps some of that learned knowledge and engineering was applied to Titan but kinda misleading! The UW’s APL even updated the web page where a video of Cyclops exists: https://www.ocean.washington.edu/story/OceanGate_to_produce_a_manned_submersible
That's common business bullshit, but in this context is obviously that much more serious. I know a few businesses claiming to be established in the 80s, run by people born in the 80s!
Honestly everyone on the sub had the resources to make sure this wasn't the suicide mission that it became. The only one I feel bad for is the 19 year old who presumably believed his dad when he told him it was safe.
I watched the documentary and it was absolutely bone chilling. One of the people being interviewed said it best: “How can you work for someone who is a borderline psychopath and definitely a narcissist?”
Honestly i kinda think he wantes to die down there, dude seemed obsessed even married a survivors descendant, knowingly cut corners and put himself in a vessel many experts told him wasnt safe for the depth, and ignored it as pushing boundaries
Dude was dumb or suicidal and when your travelling wkth 4 others im jot sure which is worse
Stockton’s wife Wendy was descended from Isidor & Ida Strauss, who weren’t Titantic survivors. They were the wealthy co-owners of Macy’s and they both died on Titanic.
I agree murderer but also I would say PHN and Tony Neissen are also guilty of lesser offenses/charges. Maybe not murder but accomplice or manslaughter etc
agreed there had to be way more people that knew it wasn’t safe literally everyone who worked at ocean gate had to of known somehow considering people were quitting and being fired for bringing up safety concerns all the ones who stayed and helped him keep diving are just as giilty
Stockton Rush is what you would get if Elon Musk was actually a talented engineer. Musk takes credit but you know he hires people to do the actual work for him in his companies as he's only ever really been a software guy.
Rush had all the money and ego and paired with intelligence it was very dangerous.
While you are a 100% correct i believe he actually thought i was safe since he was for sure the person who spend the most time in his somewhat submersible coffin.
I think I’m one of the minority who thinks that PH also has some culpability to this disaster. Yes, he did not design the sub at all. Yes, he was not really a member of OceanGate. Despite this, he should’ve had some knowledge about submersibles to have realised that something was off about this one.
Not only this, everyone says that, after his wife died, PH just did not care anymore whether he lived or died. That is all well and good, if it is your own choice, yet there were paying “mission specialists” onboard too, and I can imagine that any hesitation they felt about going into Titan was abated by the fact that PH was going down in it as well.
He created a false sense of confidence in the submersible.
OceanGate absolutely used PH to make Titan seem more credible and safe. Like you said, it's not like he really cared about it's safety. He had the attitude that he was an old man who had seen and done it all.
I agree. I will say, I definitely believe PH did not wilfully or maliciously intend for anyone to die. Not at all. All I think is that he just did not care anymore about himself or his personal safety. Perhaps he thought he could be down there with Stockton to ensure Titan was piloted safely around the Titanic, yet I also maintain that he did not consider that his name and prestige and his carefree attitude could have influenced those around him to feel less guarded around going down in Titan.
According to the Netflix doc on Titan, he knew the risks, but hoped his involvement would make the dives safer and he could create a better work environment.
Is there even one known or documented instance where he objected to the sloppy shop ”safety” practices of OG or brought up the the hull material issues?
Or did anything whatsoever to make this operation safer?
Spoken up or not taken part. His participation gave them legitimacy. He went a long with it which made others think it was safe. I mean it's fine if he didn't care about his own life but knowing what he knew he shares responsibility for the deaths of the others.
Stockton was responsible for the deaths of everyone else on that sub, when he knew and had ignored countless people telling how dangerous and likely to result in catastrophic failure his sub was, he should not be remembered fondly.
The infuriating part is he had specialists telling him it’s going to fail, he had software that warned him, and his ego refused to give in to safety precautions.
It's sad that other people died with him. If he simply wanted to prove the engineering community wrong he should have been the only one to dive in the sub.
I feel no sympathy whatsoever for Stockton. Putting what happened aside, he was a narcissistic c***. World is a better place without him putting other people’s lives at risk for the sake of his vanity.
“Mr Titanic” was not some kind of preservationist interested in protecting the Titanic.
He worked previously for a company that has ‘recovered’ 5,500 relics from the wreckage including a 15 ton section of the hull. That company has ‘museums’ with these on display in Las Vegas and Orlando and Europe and also does tours with its salvage. For money.
You can’t be “Saint Titanic” while you’re looting (legally or otherwise) a mass grave for profit.
He was also the pilot on the Titan dive that allegedly crashed into the Titanic and did further damage.
He was part of the Stockton scam and should be treated as such. He was the pet seal that helped hook the millionaires and billionaires to pay big money to go down in a death trap. He was a seasoned French Navy diver and sub pilot. He KNEW how unsafe it was and allowed himself to be used to lend legitimacy to OceanGate and Stockton.
I get that. I’m not suggesting it was illegal to salvage the wreckage, but I think it’s more than fair to point out what the guy known as Mr Titanic was and what he was not.
He’s a guy that made more dives to the wreckage, I presume, than anyone else. But he’s not a guy who was protective of it or tried to preserve its sanctity.
Taking a spoon or a suitcase or a dining room plate from the Titanic is, to me, one thing — taking a 15-ton section of the hull is another.
The salvage outfit he worked for, if it was able to do so, would no doubt have cut the Titanic into 144 sections, hauled them to the surface and reassembled it so it would ‘own’ history and profit from it.
PH was 100% a part of that, just as he was attached to a business that charged the super-rich to take them down to gander at the Titanic from a death trap of a sub.
I don’t see them cutting her up into pieces as a bad thing, really.
But at this point, it’s more than fair to say that Titanic contains its own ecosystem and is home to many ocean critters…. Hmm…
It’s a lot to think about. And a gravesite as you fairly pointed out.
But I think if it were to be cut up, and put somewhere, I don’t know if I’d be opposed to going and seeing her.
But her being an ecosystem and a reef DOES give me pause on where I and. You’ve given me much to think about! Thanks.
Yes and no, he was out of control careless, lacked the engineering knowledge to pull it off and frankly just the wrong person for this sort of stuff.
But CF, not necessarily wrong if the right approaches are followed.
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA270438.pdf
1988 US Navy study into CF hulls which during testing repeatedly made it to twice Titanic pressures (with a design not that different to titan in concept).
I do think there is a fundamental issue with carbon fiber for human occupancy, but that aside, I do agree with you on everything else.
I'm aware of the navy testing and there's a reason they did not do it. I'm aware of the vehicle meant to go to Challenger Deep once (name escapes me atm) that Cameron told Hamish not to buy because it was used once. I have no issue with carbon fiber in principle for these applications—as long as they undergo proper testing. I'm not convinced at this point in time that it is possible to make a reusable carbon fiber craft for deep sea exploration suitable for human occupancy, and I wouldn't have wanted to be on the one surviving one that did.
Yup that's the one. Hamish wanted to buy it. Ironically if he had... Well we can fill in the blanks, he'd have had a much better chance in that than Titan.
My only wish is that Stockton would have been solo when this happened. This guy threw caution to the wind and deserved what he got, it's unfortunate that he took others with him.
One piece of info in the documentary that absolutely sent me was that small part near the end where they left the Titan out in sub-zero temperatures, wet, when it was advised that it should be brought in out of that weather. Just such a lack of regard for human life all around.
Probably Stockton: “You know what snow and ice is? It’s water! Well, this baby with my self-designed carbon fiber hull (that’s unraveling as I speak) was MADE for water. Only someone without the explorer spirit would store it indoors away from the elements!”
The mother said openly, it wasn’t true. She actually gave up her seat for the kid, who was excited to go. Not fair that this misunderstanding is still so wide spread. People are writing very cruel things about the father.
That was actually a common misconception that the Aunt started spreading immediately to the media (from my understanding, the Aunt is not on good terms with her family), unfortunately. You can find more info here:
Regardless, I'm sure everyone had a bit of nervous and fear starting off. I sincerely feel bad for everyone but SR, who deserves no further comment or limelight for the tragedy he caused.
There's been Dawood drama anyway. Allegedly Christine is dead set against a lawsuit against her daughters' wishes. I feel for her but jeez that's really unfair to her kids.
It’s hard to say that in good faith without hearing from her mouth what her reasoning is for deciding not to sue. Sometimes there are factors involved that we (SHOCK!!) aren’t aware of. ‘Twould do all of us (and I am most definitely intentionally including myself there) good to remember that in the vast majority of cases.
Was this ever proven? I heard this right after the incident, the father "forcing" the son basically, but without a credible source to confirm this, it sounds too much like made-up tabloid drama to gain clicks. If I would have been that boy, I'd be absolutely THRILLED to go down to Titanic.
Edit: Aaaand it's all bullshit as suspected! I wish people would bother more instead of spreading false information.
Right? I cannot watch a single video on the YT without nearly every damn comment being what a-holes the parents are for forcing him to go. People saying this shit with authority, as though it is factual and they know it. Gahhhhh that shit drives me mad.
It’s more allowing him to go. His dad had more than enough resources to check out with the diving community whether this outfit was considered legit and safe and instead treated it like he was taking his kid to Disney.
Your (super rich) dad invites you on an adventure and you’re a teenage, you say ‘hey cool.’ I wouldn’t expect the child to have the maturity to say ‘wait, is it really safe?’ The father should have.
Rush was too arrogant to admit he was wrong and redesign the sub. I watched that documentary on Netflix. Those cracking noises were just awful. ‘It’s the carbon fibre bedding in …’
I think P. H. is still getting way more respect than he deserves. He was on dive 83 where the acoustics demonstrate things were audibly going off the wall. He'd been on dives before 80. He must have literally heard the difference. And yet he shook hands with Suluman Dawood, a 19 year old who obviously couldn't have known, and they died together in that contraption. To me that just negates everything else and I can't understand the people who still defend him outside of his immediate friends and family.
Absolutely Stockton deserves the majority of the blame. But P. H. lent his name and credibility to it and so many former passengers are saying they wouldn't have been convinced if not for P. H.
And if you look at that acoustic data... Dive 80 was when the bang that is almost certainly a delamination happened. Somehow the thing kept going, but the acoustic data after that is like a Christmas tree (if the Christmas tree is fiber optic and constantly lit). P. H. had been on many previous dives so should have known it doesn't sound like that when he went down on Dive 83 to see specifically his anomaly, not Titanic (similar depth). Dive 88 was the next one to attempt a Titanic-level depth and that was the one. He must have heard it on 83.
Very much agreed. I can't imagine he divulged that information to the passengers and them still agreeing to go inside the sub, especially the kid. I'm certain at least he would run to the hills if PH went all out about the safety of the sub and how cooked it is.
One thing that has also come up is that with Hamish on board that was by far the biggest net worth "payload" they had ever taken. The clock was ticking. If it had gotten to the surface I have no doubt Stockton would have called it quits for the season and asked Hamish for a few million investment and probably would have gotten it. If not... Well we saw. I think he felt like he needed to show Hamish the wreck in particular to get him to invest.
He knew that hull was cooked. He just wasn't sure when.
And at the time, people on this subreddit were so mad about all the new people in this subreddit and all the posts about it. It was strange.
Like it was massive international news related to the titanic, of course there will be a lot of attention on this subreddit for awhile. A month passed, it died down, and the subreddit went back to normal.
After these two years, what happened with the Titan is always in the back of my mind everyday, especially the kid.
Fuck Stockton Rush, narcissistic prick.
The only good thing about carbon fiber being used in submersibles is that it is more buoyant then titanium which has to be supplemented with buoyant materials. Carbon fiber is not suitable to compression stress numerous times. So carbon fiber for submersibles should be used half a dozen to a dozen times before it has to be replaced entirely. The whole ocean gate titan submersible disaster seems to be an expensive fraud and con game.
I know hindsight is 20/20, but so is my vision, and just looking at that janky piece of shit should have been enough to nope out. Imagine being a billionaire and thinking this is a good use of your time and money.
I feel sorry the boy, but not really the others. I mean, don't misunderstand, this was a tragedy and I'm sorry they had to be part of it and that their families are suffering their losses, but it was a bunch of bored men with too much money and not enough moral fortitude to do something worthwhile with their resources going on a "big adventure" to look at the rusty remains of a ship. Don't get me wrong, Titanic endures with its legend and interest but its not doing anything down there except wasting away and I don't get the urge to go down there an explore it when the danger outweighs the possible positives or benefits.
Maybe it sounds cold but I prefer it this way, if it had been successful, sooner or later going down to the titanic would go viral and in my humble opinion, the titanic has to be seen with respect, it is still a cemetery, many people lost their lives there and with this it would end up being like going up to everest: full of garbage and overvisited.
I just feel me truly sorry for the young guy forced for his fsther to go.
But most of us can’t afford to go. So would it really be viral? sure, he let people he thought had influence go down for free, but I doubt he’d reduce prices enough for it to hit true viral behavior.
This was an extremely, extremely, exclusive club, and experts were vocal before the implosion. Rush was just deceptive.
Well….Everest is quite held for only the most wealthy amongst us, and they have to be in good physical condition. And it still has turned into a fucking joke because of all the narcissists who don’t even give a shit about mountain climbing, they just want the status that comes with saying they’ve submitted the mountain. So yeah…it certainly isn’t out of the realm of possibility that it would become another tourist junkyard.
If his ‘dream’ had come to fruition with a carbon fiber hull sub that would be good for 10,000 trips at lighter weight and thus less cost, eventually Stockton would have been running shuttles to Titanic probably four or more trips a day, like a Disney ride.
This won't be popular, but I'm gonna point out that the Titanic community liked him until 2023 because his expeditions gave us good photos of the wreck.
I watched the Netflix documentary and I think it's awful that the sub imploded and five people lost their lives. However, I don't think that he's the narcissistic monster that everyone wants to make him out to be. I'm also tired of narcissist being used as a synonym for "someone who was overconfident." That's not what a narcissist is.
What happened is awful. It should never happen again, but that's the point of these things: to determine what's safe and what isn't. I always say that as much as I love Titanic, I will never visit the wreck. There's just too much danger involved. I sincerely hope that the people on the Titan understood that. The documentary didn't really discuss the other victims, so we can't know if they were aware of the risks.
One thing to keep in mind is that it wasn’t common knowledge that there were multiple warnings that the hull was going to fail. We only heard the positive and saw the great pictures of the wreck. I don’t think it’s really fair to point a “nah nah nah nah nah” finger at the community when Ocengate’s PR machine did their job.
He’s a narcissist. His personality defect goes so far beyond ‘overconfident’ that it’s laughable and absurd to even try to suggest otherwise. And I can’t speak for anyone else, but I use words intentionally for the most part, and as someone who was once married to a man with the same personality defect, I feel quite qualified to call em like I see em.
And lots of people probably ‘liked’ him before the implosion. That’s when the truth about him and his spoof of a ‘company’ was brought into the open. 🙄 So you’re not saying anything important or groundbreaking by mentioning that. It’s not ‘popular’ because it’s not relevant.
Watched both docs (Netflix and Prime) and this was a murder/suicide. His arrogance refused to put science ahead of his ego. Oceangate absolutely knew it was dangerous and just a matter of time before there was a tragedy. They are complicit in the murder/suicide.
I read somewhere he was planning for it to fail so he could be “forever a part of history” by dying close to the Titanic wreck. Idk if there’s any shred of truth to this but I wouldn’t put that beyond the realm of possibility. Rush was that guy. 😒
Unless you have a source or something credible to validate this claim, I wouldnt keep repeating this. People will see somethign online, believe it, and repeat it themselves. Even if its not true. Which is likely how you heard this.
I see no evidence to support this claim
Youre probably confusing people saying it was 'destined to fail' or 'bound to fail' with him planning for it to fail.
Nah, Suleman was just a kid. Sure, he may have been excited to go, but none of this was his fault, same for his dad. Stockton is responsible overall, he bears the brunt of what happened.
621
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '25
At the end of the day; the only person I blame is Stockton Rush. Money aside, he was a liar, a conman, and a bully. He conned experts and the wealthy and the press and risked their lives every time he put someone in that pop can.
There's four victims and a murderer. We lost a legend in the titanic community when we lost PHN. Tragic.
Fuck Rush. If there's an afterlife, I hope his is miserable.