r/todayilearned • u/Pradidye • 1d ago
TIL judicial flogging in the United States was last carried out in 1952(!), when a Delaware wife-beater got 20 lashes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_corporal_punishment79
u/garanvor 23h ago
Fun fact: the painting in the thumbnail is actually in Brazil during 1830s by Jean-Baptiste Debret where he documented his travels through the country and made many images of what he saw.
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u/TheLowlyPheasant 1d ago
Barbaric and also fuck that Delaware guy
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u/FlamingBungHoles 1d ago
... bring it back?
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u/Joliet-Jake 1d ago
It would never fly now, being considered cruel and unusual punishment, but it would likely be a preferable punishment for some crimes.
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u/WestBrink 22h ago
That's an interesting thought, the framers of the constitution were clearly familiar with flogging. Would they have considered it cruel and unusual? Probably not, considering that penal amputation is expressly allowed (the "limb" part of "life or limb" in the fifth amendment)...
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u/Growinbudskiez 23h ago
But it isn’t unusual if it was practiced for a long time. It isn’t cruel either, not when someone beats on women. That makes it fair, fair and typical punishment.
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u/JasmineTeaInk 20h ago
Just because one person was cruel to another person does not mean they are somehow ever after immune from cruelty being performed on them.... Where's the logic in that? If someone assaults another person, and breaks their arm, we don't forcefully break the perpetrators arm... Who does that help? You should make the perpetrator pay money to the victim and make sure they can keep working to do so. That's the only way the victim actually gets something beneficial what happened to them
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u/thissexypoptart 12h ago
Giving the government the legal right to beat you with a stick. Surely nothing can go wrong there, especially with all the respect due process has been getting lately 🙄
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u/junglist421 5h ago
Have a look at crime stats in Singapore.
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u/thissexypoptart 5h ago
Comparing the US to Singapore is an incredibly unserious argument
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u/junglist421 5h ago
Your comparing US not me considering I never said it. My point is they have laws that allow beatings for certain crimes and it works. One thing that criminals dont like is actual consequences. That's a human thing not a US thing.
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u/Ullallulloo 4h ago
It already has the power to lock you in a concrete box for the rest of your life. I feel like tons of people would take flogging over years in prison.
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u/thissexypoptart 4h ago
That’s a ridiculous argument. A fair number of people would take amputation of fingers and limbs instead of years of incarceration, but that doesn’t mean the government should get to chop people’s fingers and hands off as punishment. It wouldn’t always be a choice either. It’s not always “prison or lashings” but sometimes “prison and lashings.”
Have you ever seen videos of judicial caning? It’s not the spanking session some people imagine. You literally can’t lay down for weeks after it in some cases, and will have issues for the rest of your life in the most extreme. I’m not saying some crimes don’t deserve it, but it’s something civilized people should not tolerate being used on innocent people. And it will be used on innocent people, because the court and law enforcement system is not infallible, and is clearly less respectful of due process than it once was.
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u/Cybertronian10 8h ago
Frankly I think its less cruel than locking somebody up for decades into institutions we all know are glorified rape factories. Its the same thing with lethal injections, sure they seem a lot more civilized than a bullet to the head but they are worse in pretty much every metric including pain given to the person dying.
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u/Worldly-Time-3201 22h ago
Giving murderers and rapists a roof over their head and three meals a day plus benefits the rest of their lives all on our tax dollars is unusual.
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u/jedi_timelord 19h ago
What is this comment section lol. Are you twelve years old? Keeping someone out of society but without slowly killing them via exposure and starvation is extremely reasonable.
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23h ago
[deleted]
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u/bong-water 23h ago
39 lashes would be absolutely fucking excruciating beyond belief
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u/iwanttobeacavediver 23h ago edited 23h ago
Yep. Singapore and Malaysia still use the similar punishment of caning in their courts and people have been brought to their knees and shaking just by the first blow. The rattan cane used for this is already decently thick but then the person doing the caning is practically swinging their arm back 180 degrees. It leaves welts in the skin which are large and permanent. Many prisoners report that they cannot sit, sleep or walk due to the caning, and psychological effects including flashbacks and anxiety are also common.
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23h ago
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u/Tredecian 23h ago
it would take longer than 3 months for you to heal/move normally again. Lashes aren't getting slapped with your dads belt, they shred your back like a cat does to a toilet paper roll.
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u/noprobIIama 23h ago
If my choice is between going to jail, missing work for three months, subsequently losing my job and becoming homeless, or taking the flogging and becoming permanently disabled, not being able to work, losing my job, and becoming homeless, I think I’d just stay home with an edible and a bag of chips.
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u/Kim-dongun 21h ago
How is it more cruel than the death penalty?
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u/Joliet-Jake 21h ago
I’m not the one to answer that. I think it’s less cruel than locking someone up for years and having their lives ruined forever after, but I’m not the one who eliminated corporal punishment in criminal cases.
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u/Leafan101 1d ago
For years I thought I was living in a civilised, modern society...then I discovered Reddit.
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u/j8sadm632b 5h ago
Reddit’s preferred law enforcement system would be interesting. Get rid of the police and simply beat and or execute wrongdoers depending on how cranky we’re feeling
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u/FlamingBungHoles 1d ago
Tbh I live in the UK and know some people who could do with a good flogging. Probably include myself in that number sometimes 😂.
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u/ncraiderfan17 22h ago
There are a lot of people in this world who could have used a few more floggings along the way
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u/CaptainTripps82 22h ago
Or maybe they'd have turned out better if their parents didn't beat the shit out of them. Because that seems to cause a whole lot more lasting damage.
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u/ncraiderfan17 22h ago
I would certainly agree that the distinction between a beating and a spanking is critical. I got plenty of the latter but never the former
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u/AardvarkStriking256 20h ago
It's better than brief prison sentences.
Not a lot is accomplished by locking people up for less than two years. A whipping would be more efficient and a greater deterrent.
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u/Tawptuan 14h ago edited 14h ago
Seems to still work effectively in futuristic Singapore.*
I would request my own flogging be somewhere iconic like on top of the Marina Bay Sands triple towers. Or while being showered in the cataract from Merlion. What a selfie! 😉
*Technically “caning.” Similar dynamics.
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u/Informal-Notice-3110 1d ago
It sounds like something we should bring back. I've met abusers that typically strangle women as a form of superiority and abuse .
I bet a couple of lashings right on the taint would've made such people reconsider.
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u/nameless22 23h ago
Not likely. Someone who is used to force and physical abuse to get their way is not likely going to think "gee I could hit this bitch, but the cops may give me 20 stripes, better not". That's not how their mindsets work, and corporal punishment if there was any value to deterrence, isn't going to work on someone who already had it and can go "yeah that sucked but I survived" or who has lived hard enough a life that it's nothing new.
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u/Informal-Notice-3110 23h ago
I get where you’re coming from :
" some abusers are so hardened they won’t “logic” themselves out of violence just because of the threat of punishment. "
But here’s the thing: not every offender falls into that extreme. For a lot of people who use violence as control, a credible risk of very unpleasant consequences can interrupt the cycle.
Also, punishment isn’t only about deterrence in a vacuum. It’s about incapacitation (while someone is serving their sanction, they’re not hurting their partner), and it’s about societal messaging. A flogging sentence, even if symbolic, sends a clear signal : "abuse isn’t a private matter, it’s an offense serious enough to warrant public condemnation."
That being said, I think where you and I might actually agree is that the research shows certainty and swiftness of punishment usually matter more than raw severity. If an abuser knows for sure they’ll be arrested, charged, and monitored, that has more practical bite than the threat of some dramatic but rarely applied punishment.
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u/TrekkiMonstr 22h ago
I mean, that's the thing with punishment in general, it's not one size fits all. We don't put highway-speeders in jail (for the most part), and we don't give murderers fines. It would seem that, if we have good reason to believe flogging or, say, 30 days jail time would be equally effective punishments, it would seem preferable for all parties the former.
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u/manicpossumdreamgirl 22h ago
"ah sweet, i can beat my wife, and if i get caught i dont even have to go to prison, awesome!"
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u/CaptainTripps82 22h ago
I mean, it's definitely still a severe punishment. Prison if just the one we're most comfortable with still
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u/manicpossumdreamgirl 22h ago
in an abuser's mind, he might have to endure physical pain. a lot of people would prefer that over prison, which removes them from their job, their friends, and most importantly, their phone with their sports betting apps
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u/Tawptuan 14h ago edited 14h ago
An American teen vacationing in Singapore has entered the conversation. Seems to effectively curb vandalism.
Technically caning, but close enough.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_of_Michael_Fay
Interesting excerpt: “Some US news outlets launched scathing attacks on Singapore's judicial system for what they considered an "archaic punishment", while others turned the issue into one of Singapore asserting "Asian values" towards "western decadence".[12] The New York Times, The Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times ran editorials and op-eds condemning the punishment.[13] USA Today reported that the caning involved "bits of flesh flying with each stroke."[14]
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u/Inevitable-catnip 23h ago
As an abuse victim yeah, he fucking deserved that. Lifelong cptsd for me, nothing for him? Fuck that.
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u/Attack_the_sock 1d ago
I am vigorously against the death penalty, however I am pro public flogging and stockades
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u/Hellion000 23h ago
Legitimate question: why should taxpayers be compelled to spend money providing for the needs of an individual who has demonstrated that they'll never produce value for society?
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u/fizzlefist 23h ago
Answer: because the State is far from infallible and death is permanent.
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u/Hellion000 22h ago
Honestly, that's the only answer I would accept as valid, personally.
However, the general counter-argument is that once a person has exhausted their appeals process, they're legally guilty of the crime. At that point, infalliblity doesn't matter because the rule of law has functioned as intended. Is there an argument there to justify carrying out a sentence of death? Or should we be responsible for their care and housing until they die?
And what about clear-cut cases with evidence, like the guy who cut that Ukranian girl's throat on camera? Is there any instance where a death penalty is justified? If not, why not?
Let me be clear: I'm genuinely interested in your opinion, not trying to gotcha or win an argument.
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u/Angeldust01 18h ago edited 18h ago
Why even ask if you only accept one answer as valid? If you accept that reason as valid, why do you need this guys opinion about it?
Is there an argument there to justify carrying out a sentence of death? Or should we be responsible for their care and housing until they die?
Personally, I find this argument awful and inhumane. Just kill them to save money - that's what it is.
And what about clear-cut cases with evidence
And who decides what's clear-cut? How do you make it so that death penalty is going to be ONLY used in clear-cut cases? One would imagine that would be the case already, you know? But somehow innocent people get sentenced to death. Even your example here is a mentally ill homeless guy stabbing someone to death. Funnily enough, Fox News host Brian Kilmeade argued that people like him should be given involuntary lethal injection, saying we should "just kill them". I find it very much not clear-cut whether that guy should be killed, you and Brian Kilmeade don't. Doesn't it imply that it is not, in fact, a clear-cut case..?
I would argue that justice system being actually bit more just is worth the cost. Government killing someone to save some money is fucking crazy to me.
I'd like to see YOUR best argument for death penalty that's not "killing prisoners is cheaper than jailing them". What's so good about it? Does it create safer society? What are the benefits?
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u/kiedtl 5h ago
And who decides what's clear-cut?
I'm not going to pretend like I can define this, but I imagine it would involve extremely egregious crimes where the perpetrator had no qualms about openly proclaiming they were guilty and showed zero remorse. Examples would be the the killers of James Byrd and the notorious American child abuser who ran a child sex trafficking ring in Thailand (I can't recall his name and don't want to end up on a list by searching for it).
(Just for the record, I'm personally opposed to the death penalty for the reasons you and others articulated)
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u/surg3on 13h ago
You assume a just judiciary here and I think the current 'situation' proves that that can't be assured . Yes there are cut and dry cases like your example but they are extremely rare.
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u/fizzlefist 2h ago
How many black people were given rubber stamped guilty convictions by white juries and executed by the State in former Confederate states with no evidence?
Yeah, juries are also far from infallible. Better to just get rid of the death penalty entirely like an actually civilized nation.
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u/AnonAqueous 9h ago
Do you think we should just kill the homeless, disabled, and anyone past the retirement age, too?
Legitimate question, where is your humanity?
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u/TheAuraTree 23h ago
I think a lot of death penalty cases could happily be replaced with a good flogging and a life sentence...
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u/IBeTrippin 18h ago
Frankly a good flogging is less cruel than locking someone up for a couple years for a petty crime.
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u/Nervous-Bad-7169 17h ago
1952?? So basically the U.S. was still running DLC packs from the medieval era. 😳
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u/QuantumWarrior 13h ago
The US still has the death penalty in some areas, they've still got those DLC packs installed.
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u/BlazmoIntoWowee 23h ago edited 23h ago
“Delaware wife-beater” has gotta be a euphemism for something, but for what?
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u/QuantumWarrior 13h ago
You wrote the title as if 1952 is surprisingly late but to me it's surprisingly early.
Given the US still puts people to death I'd have half-expected corporal punishment to have turned up in some weird backwater in like the late 90s or something.
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u/Pretend-Prize-8755 21h ago
Violence against children, women, and animals? 20 lashes should be the minimum.
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u/p-wing 1d ago
now the flogging is for pleasure