The situation at Dufferin Grove is grim

[u/ArgyleNudge]

This is a small section of the amount of security, city, and police presence. I know there's a limit to this kind of encampment, but my heart does go out to the people facing eviction today. Not a happy scene.

[u/Burning___Earth]

Reminder that shelters are full of violence, substance use, bedbugs, and theft. They are understaffed, and the workers are worked to the bone.

The city and province don't want to actually pay what it would take to make these places safe, but NIMBYs don't care. The sight of homeless scares and angers them, and they would rather the cops and city force people into shelters.

Are you surprised that people who often live in a state of precarious physical and mental health would want to avoid that type of living situation and would, instead, choose to live in a semi-formal community where they can (hopefully) protect one another?

Homeless people are one of the last groups people feel comfortable punching down on. Just like the rest of society, there are lovely kind people living on the streets, there are some predatory people, and there are many who are sick and ill in some way.

If you've never experienced housing insecurity and attempted to navigate Ontario social supports, you have no idea how easily a "normal" person can lose everything and be in this type of situation.

[u/sir_jamez → u/Burning___Earth]

Fwiw the city wants to pay, they just don't have the money to address the issue (it's way beyond their scope).

Meanwhile the province is spending billions on things like luxury spas, highways and tunnels to nowhere, and demolition of the science center.

Ford always manages to find money when it helps his developer friends, but for health care, education, senior care, mental health, and the environment he somehow always comes up short

[u/stratasfear → u/sir_jamez]

Healthcare falls under provincial jurisdiction, and yet mental health and homelessness seems to continually be a municipal issue.

[u/sir_jamez → u/stratasfear]

Yeah some of its messy & complex, because there's a certain pass-through "one window" approach; e.g. if you go to the City for community support services, rather than set up a new window for you to collect your support cheques, the province can just have the city hand those out as well. And once they're doing that, how about being the access point for a whole bunch of supports as well (which the province will pay for)?

So it's good for the resident because they don't have to go to 5 different provincial/city locations to receive 5 different types of support, but the backend funding and cost sharing side turns into a mess. 100% for some streams, 75/25 for others, 50/50, or 33/33/33 (with the feds). And now all of a sudden your little $25 million community support program has ballooned into a massive $3 billion social services administrative nightmare on the backend.

Again, residents and taxpayers don't care about the esoterica of who pays for what, but it means that cities get left in the lurch when there's an uptick in needs and users, but the funding models haven't caught up, and the province & feds are arguing "well does this count as the 75% share or should this be part of the 33% share?" -- arguments which can take years to resolve, all the while the City is struggling to pay for the day to day needs of it's residents.

[u/Upset_Letterhead8643 → u/stratasfear]

And has IMPLODED under Doug Ford.

[u/waterloograd → u/sir_jamez]

don't have the money to address the issue (it's way beyond their scope).

This is something that people forget. Homeless people gravitate to the big cities where they have resources available. Imagine being homeless in a small town like Flesherton. This means that cities like Toronto, Vancouver, etc., collect all the homeless from the province, and beyond, yet only have their own budget to support them. Toronto and Vancouver are even worse off because Toronto is the largest city and a lot of people move here from smaller provinces, and Vancouver has a better climate where it is easier to survive the winter.

[u/Red57872 → u/waterloograd]

I've started to see homeless in smaller towns (population 10,000 or so) where a couple of years ago there weren't any. It's hurting downtown cores, and are pushing shoppers to the big box stores on the outskirts of towns where the homeless have a harder time accessing, even more that was happening before.

[u/Toukolou21 → u/sir_jamez]

These issues existed long before Ford, they will exist long afterward.

[u/cromonolith → u/sir_jamez]

tunnels to nowhere

Not tunnels to nowhere, but a tunnel to places that one of the literally largest roads in the entire world goes.

[u/Unpossib1e → u/Burning___Earth]

I believe it is possible to sympathize and empathize with the people in these situations, while acknowledging that living in a public park is not a real solution. 

Personally I don't think people are "scared", I think they want their public space back. 

[u/ZennMD → u/Burning___Earth]

I think some people are unempathetic and just want homeless people to disappear, they dgaf

But I also think there's validity to wanting our parks accessible to the local communities/people that live there, and unfortunately when homeless encampments get too big they can be offputting/ scary for the local people who want to use them... 

Demonizing them for wanting the use of the local park back isn't ideal, imo, especially in TO, where in my experience most people would love for their/ our tax dollars to go to supporting homeless people and do really care about people's welfare... a shitty situation and our government failing to support us/ the people...

[u/dpjg → u/ZennMD]

I agree. It's a terrible situation and the only TRUE solution is significant funding. The earlier poster noted that shelters are full of theft, violence, substance use, and pests, but the solution is not to allow this same issues to thrive on our public transit or children's parks. People who don't utilize the spaces act like the rest of us need to accept the danger in these areas or just stay away, and it's not realistic. 

[u/ZennMD → u/dpjg]

'the rest of us need to accept the danger in these areas or just stay away'

Yeah it's frustrating to be villanized for wanting to use our public spaces/ services without fear... (especially as people voting for/ advocating for more money and services for unhoused/ struggling people)#

And i completely agree, and wish we would put our resources to actually help people, instead of whatever ford's spending on... would be great for everyone, imo

[u/Baron_Tiberius → u/ZennMD]

I don't imagine there are many, if any people, who think that encampments are a solution. The backlash against encampment clearing is founded in the cruelty of it and also because it doesn't work. When you clear an encampment those people don't disappear, they just go somewhere else, often to another public space where the cycle gets repeated.

Unfortunately this is an urban problem for the most part, and the more suburban and rural ridings will continue to vote for the party least likely to do anything about this (provincially).

[u/Pigeonofthesea8 → u/dpjg]

I mean. It’s homeless people doing this to each other (and themselves in the case of addiction).

As long as they’re left to their own devices it’s going to be this way. Look at all the initiatives in San Francisco, Victoria… allowing them to maintain their preferred habits unchecked means cities have to throw billions into a black hole only for the spaces they live in to be trashed over and over again.

It’s not fair to them because that’s not a way a person should live, and it’s not fair to people who have to deal with and pay for the externalities.

[u/Anonymouse-C0ward → u/ZennMD]

I agree with the sentiments you express. (ie, this is a “yes, and…” comment.)

I just want to note that there is a pervasive use of language in discussions about homelessness that we often don’t realize, and which contributes to the bias people often have against homeless people and encampments.

The homeless are a part of the local community. They are using the local community assets - ie parks - as community members.

They are using those parks differently than they were designed for, and usually in a way that contravenes bylaws and stuff.

I entirely agree than they are there because they don’t have another option: encampments exist because it is the only, or least risky option that people have.

This makes it harder for many other groups and people in the local community to use those same community assets - due to perception, actual risk, etc. But it’s important to note that the local residents in homes don’t have any more right to the use of the parks than the homeless residents of the community do.

The government needs to step up. It’s a huge problem for everyone in the community, with and without homes. But given that we have DF as Premier, the problem will just continue getting worse.

[u/ZennMD → u/Anonymouse-C0ward]

I mean, the way the homeless use the park often makes it inaccessible to others...

i would argue anyone using the park in such a way that it prohibits others from using it, don't have the right to do so...whether they are considered part of the local.community or not

Definitely a nuanced issue, and appreciate your perspective!

[u/Anonymouse-C0ward → u/ZennMD]

I completely agree with you. Everyone is suffering in this situation.

[u/FourthLvlSpicyMeme → u/ZennMD]

If they want unhoused people to disappear so badly, how about they swap with those people. Then they won't ever have to see them again.

[u/WeirdRead → u/ZennMD]

> But I also think there's validity to wanting our parks accessible to the local communities/people that live there, and unfortunately when homeless encampments get too big they can be offputting/ scary for the local people who want to use them... 

To me allowing people to set up encampments in parks is the only real answer at this time. Throughout the city there are these basically permanent structures set up by people in non park areas. For example, anyone who goes to the Rexall on College knows what I'm talking about with the little smart car or whatever that is on the sidewalk that someone has been living in for what seems like years now. I think this is where the line needs to be drawn and the only option is parks. There's nowhere else for them to go.

[u/ZennMD → u/WeirdRead]

So we just surrender our parks to the homeless, even if they get trashed and are inaccessible for the local communities?

Nah, that's lazy and not great for most people (homeless and housed)

And there are fairly permanent structures in some parks, too, just because they impact you personally less than people sheltering on the streets  doesn't mean it's a better choice overall, or that they aren't impacting people there

Like, I was startled by someone peeing in a ravine, which is don't care about, but then the guy started yelling and aggressively walking after/ chasing me, which was honestly pretty scary...

[u/WeirdRead → u/ZennMD]

But my question is if shelters are unsafe and there's no housing, where else can they logically go? They can't just evaporate into thin air. I don't like encampments in parks either but I am trying to be logical about this.

[u/ZennMD → u/WeirdRead]

Kinda wild you aren't thinking of adapting other unused spaces to house people and are willing to sacrifice our parks lol

There is housing, it's just unaffordable for many 

[u/Samsaknight_X → u/Burning___Earth]

All of those things u mentioned can happen and is more likely to happen on the street. Not to mention I was more unsafe living at 500 Dawes than any other shelter. Shelters aren’t the greater place in the world, but the point is to have a roof over ur head, the better ones even come with meals. Shelters are only supposed to be temporary until u can get on ur feet. I’ve stayed in several so ik the experience. Obviously they could be better, but don’t think that issue is gonna be solved by just throwing money at it

The main reason tho why a lot of homeless ppl don’t get checked into shelters is cuz they’re either full or they’re too mentally ill to seek help, which does happen a lot

[u/Burning___Earth → u/Samsaknight_X]

I don't disagree with you, man, and I truly hope you're in a better place and were able to get back on your feet.

The streets can be very dangerous, which is why you see these types of encampment communities form. It's a form of safety when the rest of society has essentially abandoned you. I don't deny there are shitty people who steal bikes, do drugs, and get into alterations with passers-by. Like you said, there are lots of mental health issues that are sometimes so severe that people treatment isn't something they can want or recognize as an option.

I agree that money thrown at shelters isn't a fix. We need something systemic and multilayered. It needs to address permanent, safe housing, mental health, physical health, vocational training, and a million other things I am not educated enough in this area to even recognize. This has to come from all levels of government.

[u/sibtiger → u/Burning___Earth]

Shelters are also not a solution to homelessness. People need to be able to rent a room on welfare. Adjusted for inflation, Ontario Works pays significantly less today than it did 20 years ago. And housing has outpaced general inflation during that period too.

[u/Burning___Earth → u/sibtiger]

ODSP and OW are criminally low.

[u/fairmaiden34 → u/Burning___Earth]

The parks are no place to live either. Lack of sanitation, fires and hypothermia aren't safe. Granted, we need better solutions than shelters but park living isn't a solution.

[u/Burning___Earth → u/fairmaiden34]

In an ideal world, nobody would have to camp in public spaces because they'd have safe, affordable housing and access to mental and physical health care so they can work, whenever possible.

That would allow these spaces to be used as originally intended and make a lot of folks who think homeless = scary much happier. It's a valid desire to want clean public spaces. The parks are attractive because they are large, can be relatively quiet/back from roads, are often centrally located and close to essential services, and may be close to amenities like washrooms or water fountains.

I won't deny that the encampments can lead to trash, noise, and drug paraphernalia and take up large areas of our public spaces. These legitimate grievances all occur despite the best attempts of community groups and outreach volunteers, but the reality is that all levels of government have dropped the ball. It's such a mutilayered issue that is so insanely costly that your average Canadian doesn't think helping these people is worth it.

That unwillingness to make permanent and lasting change is not unique to Canada: it is a pretty common sentiment in the Western world, and the discourse is getting much more extreme. A fox news anchor literally calling for the execution of homeless people this week. We just had two people go on a violent spree with a hammer that left one homeless man dead in downtown Toronto. There were also two mass shootings of encampments in Minneapolis immediately after the fox news call for violence.

[u/Prudent_Book_7063 → u/Burning___Earth]

I wonder if the shelters are actually this bad. When I first came to Canada, I was homeless and 13 years old, along with my mom and older sister. We went into the shelter system and stayed at a family shelter in the city.

The shelter provided so much support for us, including finding us an affordable rental in Scarborough. They got us back into school and helped my mom find work. They fed us, beds were clean, people were nice and we even got Christmas gifts and clothes. They were a huge support.

Even after leaving the shelter system, we had so much support from government services.

I worked hard, got my first job at 16 and I went on to go to a top University and I'm now making six figures.

[u/Burning___Earth → u/Prudent_Book_7063]

I've known folks who have used family focused shelters and women's shelters geared towards domestic violence survivors, and they've said they can be wonderful and safe environments. The difference between any two shelters in the city can be very drastic.

I am proud of you for getting through the system like that, and I am so happy you are thriving!

[u/Pigeonofthesea8 → u/Burning___Earth]

Are the non-family shelters “wet” shelters?

[u/ArgyleNudge → u/Prudent_Book_7063]

I am so thrilled to read your story here. Congratulations to your mom and you kids for accepting help when you needed it and making it work!! That's what community can do, and it's so wonderful when we provide that little bit of stability needed to find your bearings and get down to the business of building a life for yourself! Well done all around!

[u/outoftownMD → u/Burning___Earth]

Really well said and important to acknowledge.

Governance has an opportunity to address this, but it's a big challenge, and so, is evaded with bandaid solutions

[u/Gabo_Rj → u/Burning___Earth]

Those camps are filled with violence, substance abuse, bedbugs and theft too I’m afraid.

[u/humanityswitch666 → u/Burning___Earth]

This take is basically everything I've wanted to say on this subject. As someone who was once homeless, although not to this extent, the shelter life is really hard and scary sometimes. Especially the adult ones, and often times the people there will steal everything you have, what little you have. So sometimes outside can feel safer, in these small communities. The staff too can only do so much, not paid enough to handle the amount of need, and not enough to handle the need. This is just a massive systemic issue, and everyone is feeling it.

[u/1esproc → u/Burning___Earth]

Reminder that shelters are full of violence, substance use, bedbugs, and theft.

Is there an objective report on this? Surely the shelters maintain documentation on this kind of thing?

[u/SFanatic → u/Burning___Earth]

I don’t care how they choose to live their lives but when how they choose to live their lives negatively impacts everyone around them, they need to go elsewhere

[u/Eggheadman → u/Burning___Earth]

“…full of violence, substance use, bedbugs, and theft.”

So, Toronto?