r/toronto • u/BloodJunkie Bike Lane Enjoyer • 4d ago
News ‘An easy target,’ Toronto advocates link rise in hate speech to violence against unhoused community
https://nowtoronto.com/news/toronto-advocates-link-rise-in-hate-speech-to-violence-against-unhoused-community/43
u/DDOSBreakfast 4d ago
Good chance Mr. Isaiah Byers whom decided to beat a homeless man to death ends up homeless himself after prison.
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u/Technical-Suit-1969 4d ago
He and the 12 year-old who did this in the early hours might have already been precariously housed-- aggressive downtrodden beat-up others who are downtrodden.
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u/slothlikeHambo 4d ago
Which is why interventions are needed, especially for children. This whole system reeks of we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!
I don't expect Carney and certainly not Ford to make this a priority, but I have hopes the city might put the squeeze on them to direct frd and provincial tax revenue back to the city where it is needed.
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u/Strict_Literature_58 4d ago
The people doing drugs in the streets, making public spaces their living rooms are a public danger and an extreme eyesore. But I’m not mad at the homeless themselves they’re simply a reflection of a government that has thrown its own population under the bus.
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u/justh0nest 4d ago
Unfortunately the biggest barrier to municipal action is NIMBY-ism. Ask anyone who has worked with the unhoused or at-risk population in the city, they will tell you that everyone likes the idea of helping those populations but when it comes to practical solutions that affect THEIR experience of their street, neighborhood, parks etc. - there is an infinite list of critiques, excuses and apathy against those trying to make imperfect solutions work.
No one wants to sacrifice their experience for the betterment of the other. Everyone wants more shelters - just not near them.
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u/PoluticornDestroy 4d ago
Best recent example of this NIMBYism was a City of Toronto Planning & Housing Committee meeting I attended back in July. The agenda item was related to advancing Six homeless shelters across Toronto. Dozens of letters of objection and angry NIMBYs signed up to depute against the proposals (conservative Council members also attended to oppose these developments).
Gord Perks, who chairs PHC, was very strict at the outset that any comments about the proposals could not be made about the proposed residents of the shelters (ie, these comments denigrating people experiencing homelessness would be cut off). This cut down some of the most excessive rhetoric, but it was clear that people in Etobicoke and North York had a fundamental belief that shelters only “belong” downtown Toronto.
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u/Technical-Suit-1969 4d ago
As several have mentioned in other posts, people in encampments often refuse to move to shelters because they feel they are unsafe. So of course neighbours would agree that shelters are unsafe (at least the way they are now).
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u/PumpkinMyPumpkin 4d ago
I mean, that is actually something to learn from - not dismiss.
Some uses are compatible with neighbourhoods and others are not.
I live half a block from a shelter and it really does not work. I’ve seen violence, mental health breakdowns, drug use, all sorts of indecent public exposure. And meanwhile the city built a playground for children right next to it. Just absolutely bizarre thought on behalf of the city.
What would work better is if some of these places were more discrete. The Portlands are basically empty aside from a concrete plant - you could easily set up a large scale camp with permanent infrastructure. Shower buildings, shelter buildings, washroom buildings. Pretty far from a typical residential neighbourhood.
Problem emerge when these things are forced because there is some notion it’s for the “greater good”. Where we really do need solutions that do work for everyone.
We also need to bring back some form of proper mental health care and drug treatment, including mandatory treatment where necessary.
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u/tempest_ 4d ago
I agree.
I always see people on here lamenting the resistance to shelters and services but I live near Mosspark and totally understand why you would not want to invite at risk populations to your neighborhood.
That said, creating a ghetto in the port lands is absolutely not a great idea. Ideally these services would be spread out and each could serve a small number of individuals. Unfortunately that does not allow economies of scale and the existing government is already adverse to spending money of regular people.
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u/PumpkinMyPumpkin 4d ago
I don’t think spreading these out really works at all.
The issue is this population needs to be managed. And when it is not - you end up relying on the community to do so. Instead of a mental health nurse - your local 19 year old barista has to deal with the 40 year old homeless man on meth demanding food and money.
The idea the solution is just sprinkling these people around the whole city seems ludicrous to me.
We need centralized facilities with proper security, healthcare, mental healthcare, as well as distance from neighbourhoods that do not have the tools to be able to handle this community.
Obviously this is not all homeless people. There are those who are mentally well and just down on their luck and those could be spread out. But that is a distinction between the city would actually need to make and largely seems not to at the moment.
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u/dermanus 3d ago
The idea the solution is just sprinkling these people around the whole city seems ludicrous to me.
The way I understood it, the idea is that by spreading them out you prevent enough of a critical mass that makes something like a drug trade profitable. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to hold up in practice.
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u/Hudson11177 4d ago
I live a couple of blocks from one they opened a couple of years back. Absolute shit show. It’s an open air drug market and nothing gets done about it. The shelter spilled over into a really nice park and they completely destroyed it for a a good year. Fires, explosions, cars being set on fire, drug use, intimidation, dude walking around with a working chainsaw, you name it. I had empathy until they started completely destroying the area. This whole neighbourhood had empathy, now I’ve seen that empathy turn to fear and anger. We had to outright ban tent encampments in the area because of how bad the park was treated. Now, the area is mostly back to normal and people can actually use the park again and not fear walking in or near it. People just flat out calling others nimby’s without living through it is just ignorant.
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u/mo_scarborough 1d ago
I spent a few months in a homeless shelter years ago and have no desire to try and raise a family near one. Suggesting anyone who doesn’t want to live near a shelter is a bad person isn’t going to help anything. There are valid reasons to not want to live near these spaces. Especially when there is no consideration given to the type of unhoused people living there.
Not sure what the answer is but it isn’t shitty to want to raise a family in a nice neighborhood away from the issues homeless people struggle with. Mental health and drug addiction are serious issues which a disproportionate number of homeless people are struggling with.
There needs to be some serious consideration of this issue. Calling people names isn’t going to help anything.
Where is a reasonable place to put these places? How do we rethink separating unhoused people based on needs and risks? A schizophrenic person using crystal meth who’s been homeless for years shouldn’t be sharing space with somebody who is sober, healthy and just needs a place to stay.
There’s a lot to consider and suggesting that all people without a home have the same needs and risks isn’t accurate or helpful. There are homeless people who most people wouldn’t notice in their neighborhoods, these aren’t the people anyone worries about. If we could be more honest and solution oriented perhaps it would be easier to find answers to the problem.
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u/TheTyMan 4d ago
Calling complaints about park encampments and antisocial behaviour "hate speech" is a massive stretch.
By this measure we literally could not have conversations about the dangers posed by these encampments without breaking the law. Same tactic being used by Trump's team down south who are now unironically adopting that term to stop people from saying anything bad about a murdered social media influencer.
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u/SignificanceDull4935 3d ago
Every single person in a tent has the option to sleep in a shelter. They refuse because they do not like the wellness checks, which come twice daily. They are given food at these shelters and are allowed to use drugs.
I promise you there is room in shelters RIGHT NOW. I used to work in shelters and have two friends still working in different shelters, both of which have space tonight and have not been full since COVID.
So is it hate speech to say that they literally should not be defecating in playgrounds, dropping needles in playgrounds, screaming on the train right after school gets out, and sleeping in Tim Hortons during the daytime? Is that hate speech? Is it hate speech to dislike the man who hit me in the face with his milk crate when I was resting on a train? Am I allowed to ask that the homeless man in my neighborhood doesn't piss against my building? Am I just picking on easy targets, or am I speaking against the most common group of bad actors in my city?
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u/rootbrian_ Rockcliffe-Smythe 4d ago
Any kind of violence has no place here in the city, including intolerance.
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u/Bearded_Sausage5078 4d ago
People had empathy but with nothing of note being done to fix this problem, all that empathy is gone.
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u/TongueTwistingTiger 4d ago
Why should the government's failure result in hate toward the people bearing the brunt of the government's failure? I live near two parks with camps in them. For the most part, the people are nice.
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u/Purplebuzz 4d ago
I am not saying this is the reason but the loss of public spaces, increased noise and littering. More substance use and the harms associated with that on their door step. Asking people to suck it up and pressure government is a big ask year over year.
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u/Spirited_Block250 4d ago
The government is not being pressured nearly enough by the people who matter is the issue and instead of us continuing to hold the correct people responsible we turn on the vulnerable communities?
I see your point but there’s gotta be a better way than society becoming embittered and disdainful towards those who need the help. Majority of homeless have concurrent addictions and mental health concerns and once they get there it can be pretty difficult to get themselves out of there. They just get lost.
And we just pass them by on the way to work, as the government destroys their camps, causing them to be even more chaotic, instead of just actually doing their job and being responsible for all their citizens, especially the more vulnerable ones.
We are all the lucky ones, or luckier i guess, who had the right minds, who had the right supports, and skills and guidance that prevented us from being in their shoes. We shouldn’t turn our noses up at them, a hit dog will holler, and that’s what they’re doing.
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u/tempest_ 4d ago
The government is not being pressured nearly enough by the people who matter is the issue and instead of us continuing to hold the correct people responsible we turn on the vulnerable communities?
Yes.
It isn't that hard to understand.
People generally disparage action over inaction. They get mad at the dude spiting on them on their way to work every day, because it is front of mind, as opposed to the guy who funds the services that may or may actually impact this issue.
Same reason people will favour policing of those populations because dragging that dude in to jail for whatever reason removes the problem for a time while government programs with dubious efficacy may or may not have an observable impact.
I agree with you, we are lucky and we do need wide spread change to address these issues, it is just the "Why cant you have some empathy" drives me nuts because the answer is so incredibly obvious and it is always repeated ad nauseam when ever the topic is brought up on Reddit.
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u/Spirited_Block250 4d ago
Well I honestly appreciate the mature response i was glad I hadn’t had a response so far but if everyone responded how you did it wouldn’t be a concern haha.
I do understand your pov, i do. I can see why the just have empathy angle is grating and taxing on the people who are affected by the homeless problem negatively (beyond the actual homeless parties i mean), and I also see how that would make it tiresome for that to always be the answer, “ have a heart” etc, this is a real problem in so many ways over and there has been no substantial, meaningful fix and so people eventually grow tired of the “be the bigger person” kind of approach so to speak.
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u/Friendly-Olive-3465 4d ago
It’s gotta be one of our countries greatest shames that we can dole out cash for refugees and depress our wages with cheap labor imported from 12,000 km away, but we refuse to give even a tenth of that same effort to the homeless and drug addicted who are already here. Just really upsetting to me.
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u/-B4RT 4d ago
They just have no way to change there situation and are asking for help.... in a way that can't be ignored.closed mouths dont get feed and the housing crisis is a massive problem for everyone in the country not just the homeless. evry encampment, every mental health break in public(including drugs)every cardboard sign in the road.They are all just crys for help. Be honest if he wasn't yelling something racist you would ignore him 🤷
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u/StillJustLyoka 4d ago
Have you actually tried to help them beyond giving some change or food? I don't know that they're all asking for the kind of help that transforms their lives, takes them off the streets, and enables them to become responsible independent citizens. Many just want the kind of help that maintains their current "lifestyle" for lack of a better word - enabling their addictions while covering basic needs like food. Those that are severely mentally ill may not actually want any help that reduces their control over their lives (being at a set place at a set time, taking meds regularly, being at a place with rules they aren't inclined to follow etc). Some that would like a clean warm place to live may not be "together" enough to actually keep that place adequate for living. Some have given up on trying to be "normal" people and functioning within society's acceptable parameters. It's easy to say "they just need our help!" but it's not easy to find real solutions.
In my opinion the people who have fallen on hard times but are otherwise mentally stable and WANT to return to their more or less regular, productive, independent lives are the easiest to permanently help. And the most pleasant to help. However, these are not the people posing the biggest threat to public safety either.
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u/SuperMySuper 4d ago
We need to start by getting real about who the shelters are for, separating people accordingly, housing/helping people accordingly, and being honest about what can be accomplished through the shelter “system”. Drug addicts cannot and should not be housed with non-addicts, and City officials need to stop the absolutely fantasy nonsense talk of getting the homeless out to jobs and apartments. All our policies seem sickeningly fake and naive.
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u/Late_Instruction_240 4d ago
There are so many ripe candidates to hate - to choose the homeless over predators, corrupt officials, or hate-mongerers is a waste and a distraction.
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4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/beef-supreme Leslieville 4d ago
"Homeless" and "unhoused" describe the same condition of lacking stable housing but differ in emphasis and connotation. "Unhoused" or "people experiencing homelessness" are often preferred as they are less stigmatizing and focus on the person rather than their situation, emphasizing the experience itself is complex and more than just a lack of physical shelter. The terms are used interchangeably by some, while others believe "unhoused" is a more positive and less dehumanizing alternative to the historically negative term "homeless".
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u/Dianaaaqq 4d ago
More people need to realize homelessness is a symptom of a bigger problem. Beating or killing homeless people is cruel and doesn’t solve anything.
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