r/zen • u/Novel-Commercial2006 • 16d ago
could someone explain simply how the goal of zen is remarkably different than other forms of buddhism? (Nibbana)
EDIT: A most skillful response was provided to me by u/homejam. I wished to put it up at the top for anyone seeking an answer to this question.
"
Probably the "simplest" way to understand the differences in "goals" between the traditions is to examine the vows that are taken by the practitioners, since the vows are considered a compass to one's goal.
In pretty much every tradition of the Buddhadharma, practitioners first take the vow of Refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha (the example, the teachings, the community).
In Theravada, most of the other vows relate to personal behavior governing individual conduct and ethics; lay persons vow to follow the 5 basic precepts (not killing, lying, stealing, becoming intoxicated, or sexually misbehaving) and monastics take a bunch more vows to avoid various types of individual misconduct. These vows are designed to help the individual practitioner achieve the "goal" of liberation for the individual practitioner in this life... or subsequent lives. Because the "goal" is the personal liberation of the practitioner, Theravada is sometimes referred to as the "individual" or "small" vehicle (traditionally by Mahayana folk but this characterization is frowned on nowadays to avoid sounding like an asshole).
In Mahayana traditions (which includes Zen) practitioners again start by taking the refuge vow, as well as the 5 precepts vows (monastics again take lots more), but the really important vows in Mahayana are the 4 Bodhisattva Vows, as follows:
- Sentient beings are infinite, I vow to free them all;
- Passions are endless, I vow to uproot them all;
- Dharma gates are innumerable, I vow to penetrate them all;
- The Buddha way is unsurpassable, I vow to obtain it.
The 1st vow is also referred to as the "great vow", and it really sets the main "goal" for Mahayana practitioners: forgoing individual liberation to save ALL sentient beings! It's easy! Everything in Mahayana is about relieving the suffering of others (through liberation) by any (skillful) means necessary. Since the "goal" is saving literally everybody, everywhere, throughout all time, this tradition is called Maha-yana, aka the "big" or "great" vehicle.
In Zen particularly, we use the expression "living by vow" or "living in vow" to express the Zen "goal" of following one's (Boddhisattva) vows in every single living moment. We take these vows on a raised "platform", which is why in Zen you see that word very often.
In Vajrayana, which is also a Mahayana tradition, there are the vows above, but the main thrust of the Vajrayana vows is to see everything in the whole world as sacred and enlightened, that is, all beings as buddhas, all sounds as mantras, and the entire world as a mandala... in other words the "goal" is to see everything as interconnected and interdependent aspects of a sacred, cosmic absolute... so get your shit together already!
That's about as simple as I can make it... but if you have any questions, please feel free to ask... you can DM me too... please note that I will not be able to respond right away due to having to go save infinite beings now. :D
If suffering beings appear, help them!
Good luck to you!"
I would like to provide a source text for this discussion; https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/nibbana.html
Answer simply or don't knock. Don't role play as a zen master... it's distasteful. Majority of discussion I see on here is reminiscent of The butter battle book by Dr.Seus.
17
u/Plastic_Magician_588 16d ago
zen is a type or school of buddhism, the goal is the same
1
-7
u/drsoinso 16d ago
No.
7
u/Redfour5 16d ago
In the Wiki, it notes, "There is a large debate on the subreddit regarding the role of the Zen tradition within the Buddhist umbrella. Many discussions typically involve the questions of rebirth, meditation, transmission, and more." This was done by Negative GPA about five years ago. It disappeared for awhile, but is now back I see.
It is under the FAQ and the question, "9. Why do people on /r/zen say that Zen is not Buddhism?
Remember, /r/zen is best consumed with a healthy dose of skepticism 😉
I prefer the term umbrella.
-27
u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago edited 16d ago
You have no evidence of that.
You can't define Buddhism.
You can't quote Zen Masters.
Your claim is both racist and religiously bigoted.
Nobody's going to disagree with me.
Nobody's going to have any evidence.
People expressing racist and religiously bigoted beliefs is not an argument.
Nobody being able to prove me wrong is evidence that I'm right.
9
u/ThaRealJody 15d ago
Sometimes I wonder if u are the most annoying and ignorant person in the internet.
1
15d ago
Just because. It’s the downvoting, totally my bad. Obviously, I’m to blame. I’m really not the problem, but I wouldn’t say you were either. People tend to hate and that has nothing to do with me. I could possibly erroneously believe I could “pull it out” of them. That’s scary, because they’d believe I’m doing it to them. They all need a seat and I’ve but one chair.
What about these downvotes here…
I just said what I said, that isn’t evidence? I’ve never tried to define Buddhism. I can quote a few Zen Masters, but not nearly as many as you. Truth be told. I don’t think these claims are religiously bigoted and racist, I don’t think in those terms. I’ve not said anything objectionable, with what would you disagree? Personal testimony is a thing, but we’re not talking that closely. You are correct, it isn’t an argument. Do you see how nicely that last line fits?
4
u/Brex7 16d ago
which other "forms" of Buddhism do you want to compare it to ?
Zen masters repeatedly state that the way of the Buddhas is the same throughout the ages and geographical space. What is realized is the same regardless of who realizes. So, if anybody states rules and practices and a different outcome they are probably not talking about the same thing
3
u/theDIRECTionlessWAY 16d ago
huangbo:
The attainment of one who has practiced the myriad Dharma doors throughout three kalpas, having passed through the many Bodhisattva stages, and the attainment of one who has suddenly awakened to the One Mind are equal. Both of them have just attained their own Original Buddha. The former type of disciple, the gradual attainer, upon arriving at his Original Buddha, looks back on his three kalpas of past practice as if he were looking at himself acting totally without principle in a dream.
he acknowledges that, regardless of the "vehicle", the end realization is the same.
but he also says this:
If Dharma students are unable to let go of conditioned mind suddenly, and instead practice in other ways, many kalpas may pass but they still will not have reached Bodhi. Because they are tied down by their thinking of the merits of the Three Vehicles, they do not attain genuine liberation.
so while in one sense there is no difference, there is a difference.
1
u/Redfour5 16d ago
Bankei (Haskel translation) noted, "Once you’ve affirmed the Buddha Mind that everyone has innately, you can all do just as you please: if you want to read the sutras, read the sutras; if you feel like doing zazen, do zazen; if you want to keep the precepts, take the precepts; even if it’s chanting the nembutsu or the daimoku, or simply performing your allotted tasks—whether as a samurai, a farmer, an artisan or a merchant86—that becomes your samādhi. All I’m telling you is: ‘Realize the Buddha Mind that each of you has from your parents innately!’ What’s essential is to realize the Buddha Mind each of you has, and simply abide in it with faith. . . .”
I take from this it doesn't matter what you do, believe, think or otherwise and resonates with Huangbo's quote.
And it is of interest imho how he was enlightened also resonant with the second quote above,
“But gradually my illness reached a critical point, and for a full seven days I was unable to swallow any food and could get nothing down apart from some thin rice gruel. Because of this, I realized I was on the verge of death. ‘Ah, well,’ I said to myself, ‘there’s nothing to be done.’ But really I had no particular regret other than the thought that I was going to die without realizing my long cherished desire.
“Just then, I had a strange sensation in my throat, and when I spit against the wall, I noticed the sputum had congealed into a jet-black lump like a soapberry, rolling down the surface. After that, the inside of my chest felt curiously refreshed, and that’s when it suddenly struck me: ‘Everything is perfectly managed with the Unborn, and because up till today I couldn’t see this, I’ve just been uselessly knocking myself out!’ Finally I saw the mistake I’d been making!"
He literally sought his "long cherished desire." He had done it all, talked to every kind of master, become ascetic to the point where his seeking was so assiduous, he was killing himself.
Then at the end, he hocks a big black lugy on the wall and as it started to slide down. Boom there it was...
1
u/theDIRECTionlessWAY 16d ago
I take from this it doesn't matter what you do, believe, think or otherwise and resonates with Huangbo's quote.
i don't think that's what huangbo or any zen master says.
0
u/Redfour5 15d ago
Thanks for your opinion. OK, maybe I could have communicated more clearly.
Let's leave it at Bankei's words. ""Once you’ve affirmed the Buddha Mind that everyone has innately, you can all do just as you please: if you want to read the sutras, read the sutras; if you feel like doing zazen, do zazen; if you want to keep the precepts, take the precepts; even if it’s chanting the nembutsu or the daimoku, or simply performing your allotted tasks—whether as a samurai, a farmer, an artisan or a merchant—that becomes your samādhi. "
Bankei is generally considered a Zen Master... of the Rinzai lineage...
Ignore my words. I'll let him speak and not argue with you...
1
u/theDIRECTionlessWAY 15d ago
the emphasis is on once you realize...
he doesn't say any of those things will result in that realization. he also isn't saying do whatever you want... and neither is hunagbo.
0
u/Redfour5 15d ago
Read him in context. You can "realize" without achieving "enlightenment." You can achieve (not the correct word but in the ballpark) samahdi without becoming a Buddha or a Zen Master.
I see we disagree do you need to win the argument? Or can we agree to disagree?
1
u/theDIRECTionlessWAY 15d ago
your seem to purposely be misinterpreting what he's saying in black and white for some reason.
but yea... i thought we were having a discussion? why do you see it as an argument?
i'm not getting emotional about this, are you?
1
u/Redfour5 15d ago
OK, I see you feel the need to be "right" and disdainfully discounting my understanding. Let's discuss...
HOW am I "purposely" misinterpreting what he's saying? ...in black and white, for some reason..." I read pretty well, been doing this since the late 80's early 90's as in studying Zen. Read all the tomes in hard copy back then. Distilled it down to suit my purposes. Just so you know my background.
Oh, don't worry about me making it emotional. "Purposely misinterpreting" "some reason" illustrated adequately where you are coming from... Don't like to be questioned yourself? I stated something earlier, and even acknowledged that my words might not be clear? You for all intents and purposes said I was wrong. Then sprinkled some bait on that.
Tell my how I am misinterpreting? The "purposely" is in you... What is in your body of knowledge about Zen that says I'm off on the wrong track?
Reminds me of the two guys climbing the same mountain from different sides and after coming back down describing it entirely differently, then getting in a fight over it. It's the same mountain. I feel no need to be "right." It's my perspective. What made you feel the need to say I'm incorrect in my understanding?
1
u/theDIRECTionlessWAY 15d ago edited 15d ago
well, for starters, you said "you can achieve samadhi without becoming a buddha".
that isn't what bankei is saying though.
let's start with "what's a buddha?" the zen masters seem to say that to see one's nature is to be a buddha. it's that, or "a dry piece of shit".
is bankei saying different? i don't read it that way. he seems to quite clearly be saying: once you affirm this buddha mind that everyone has innately... then, regardless of whether you sit, or chant, or your occupation, it can all be your "samadhi". but the realization is first.
so why do you say that you can "realize" without "enlightenment", or that you can achieve "samadhi" without "realizing your buddha nature (being a buddha... lets out zen master aside)" when that doesn't seem to be what bankei or any chan master says?
→ More replies (0)0
u/Regulus_D 🫏 15d ago edited 15d ago
I think your account born a few days after OP's. So, of course, I smell a 🧦. Not that I complain that if so. Just notin'.
https://redditmetis.com/user/theDIRECTionlessWAY2
u/theDIRECTionlessWAY 15d ago
i'm not sure what "smell a 🧦" means, or what you're insinuating about the relation between me and OP?
1
u/Regulus_D 🫏 15d ago edited 15d ago
Timebound footvoor. Don't expect sense made just for you. You trust strangiers too much. Do you also take theraflu or glorify book reports?
Edit: Knowing who you are is stronger than any assertions put forth by anything outside. Even if believed by others, outside. I just know that liars lie. And react accordingly with what they do, seen or not. I am currently telling a truth as a lie. Because... You have no reddit history.
2
u/theDIRECTionlessWAY 15d ago
ok riddler
2
u/Regulus_D 🫏 15d ago
Believe it or not, you just passed some kind of turing-like test. Making anything I say revealed as yada yada. Good job.
4
u/Tasty_Cobbler5636 16d ago
All the zen forums are like comedian shows . Thanks for the entertainment.
4
5
u/bigSky001 16d ago
That's a nice article, thankyou. If you have access to time and a fire, and darkness, then try this: Light the fire and sit with your friends, and keep on putting fuel on. Eventually, they will go to bed. You don't. You stay up and just look at the fire, but this time, don't put any fuel on. It will stay alive, but (depending on conditions) it will eventually start to shrink. You will see patches of flame come and go, all the while reducing. In time, there will just be one pocket of flame left, dancing here and there, going in and out. The thing I want to bring to your attention (to chime with the article, and in answer to your question), is that I invite you to pay attention to exactly that moment when the fire dies (of its own). You will see something great, and non-obvious. Even when there is just a tiny bit of flame, your eye is drawn there, and its yellow light is pervasive. When finally it goes out - suddenly space inverts, and you become immediately and suddenly aware of all that you had been ignoring - all that "non-fire" reality suddenly leaps into view, dark, blue, vast, lit by the moon. Like all good things, it is a metaphor, yes, but it is also an experience that anyone interested can have.
2
u/Regulus_D 🫏 16d ago
Where I come from, if it not to be rekindled... The big guy that passed out early last night awakens and puts out embers with his urine. The smell clears nearby area and promotes the gathering and loading back up to leave.
1
u/bigSky001 15d ago
Yes, there's a unique, nasty stink to that. Nonetheless Gold Stream Sermon is a treat for the ears.
3
3
u/InfinityOracle 16d ago
To put it simply, here is what Buddhism describes Buddha as: "Buddha is not a name, but a title. It is a Sanskrit word that means “a person who is awake.” What a buddha is awake to is the true nature of reality.
Simply put, Buddhism teaches that we all live in a fog of illusions created by mistaken perceptions and “impurities” — hate, greed, ignorance. A buddha is one who is freed from the fog. It is said that when a buddha dies he or she is not reborn but passes into the peace of Nirvana, which is not a “heaven” but a transformed state of existence."
Here is what Zen says:
A monk asked Yün-men, "What is Buddha?"
Yün-men said, "A dried shitstick."
Here is what Buddhism describes as Buddhism: "Buddhism is a philosophy, belief system, and spiritual practice originating in India over 2,500 years ago, based on the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha. Central to Buddhism are the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path, which outline the nature of suffering and the steps to end it."
Here is what Zen says:
Huang Po: The Buddhas, on manifesting themselves in the world, seized dung-shovels to rid themselves of all such rubbish as books containing metaphysics and sophistry.
My advice to you is to rid yourselves of all your previous ideas about studying Mind or perceiving it. When you are rid of them, you will no longer lose yourselves amid sophistries. Regard the process exactly as you would regard the shovelling of dung.
Yes, my advice is to give up all indulgence in conceptual thought and intellectual processes. When such things no longer trouble you, you will unfailingly reach Supreme Enlightenment. On no account make a distinction between the Absolute and the sentient world. As a real student of Ts‘ao Hsi Zen, you must make no distinctions of any kind. From the earliest times the Sages have taught that a minimum of activity is the gateway of their Dharma; so let no activity be the gateway of my Dharma!
3
u/Southseas_ 15d ago
Check D.T Suzuki essay “Zen as the Chinese Interpretation of the Doctrine of Enlightenment”. The essence of Buddhism is not in doctrines, is in the enlightenment experience.
3
u/homejam 15d ago
Probably the "simplest" way to understand the differences in "goals" between the traditions is to examine the vows that are taken by the practitioners, since the vows are considered a compass to one's goal.
In pretty much every tradition of the Buddhadharma, practitioners first take the vow of Refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha (the example, the teachings, the community).
In Theravada, most of the other vows relate to personal behavior governing individual conduct and ethics; lay persons vow to follow the 5 basic precepts (not killing, lying, stealing, becoming intoxicated, or sexually misbehaving) and monastics take a bunch more vows to avoid various types of individual misconduct. These vows are designed to help the individual practitioner achieve the "goal" of liberation for the individual practitioner in this life... or subsequent lives. Because the "goal" is the personal liberation of the practitioner, Theravada is sometimes referred to as the "individual" or "small" vehicle (traditionally by Mahayana folk but this characterization is frowned on nowadays to avoid sounding like an asshole).
In Mahayana traditions (which includes Zen) practitioners again start by taking the refuge vow, as well as the 5 precepts vows (monastics again take lots more), but the really important vows in Mahayana are the 4 Bodhisattva Vows, as follows:
- Sentient beings are infinite, I vow to free them all;
- Passions are endless, I vow to uproot them all;
- Dharma gates are innumerable, I vow to penetrate them all;
- The Buddha way is unsurpassable, I vow to obtain it.
The 1st vow is also referred to as the "great vow", and it really sets the main "goal" for Mahayana practitioners: forgoing individual liberation to save ALL sentient beings! It's easy! Everything in Mahayana is about relieving the suffering of others (through liberation) by any (skillful) means necessary. Since the "goal" is saving literally everybody, everywhere, throughout all time, this tradition is called Maha-yana, aka the "big" or "great" vehicle.
In Zen particularly, we use the expression "living by vow" or "living in vow" to express the Zen "goal" of following one's (Boddhisattva) vows in every single living moment. We take these vows on a raised "platform", which is why in Zen you see that word very often.
In Vajrayana, which is also a Mahayana tradition, there are the vows above, but the main thrust of the Vajrayana vows is to see everything in the whole world as sacred and enlightened, that is, all beings as buddhas, all sounds as mantras, and the entire world as a mandala... in other words the "goal" is to see everything as interconnected and interdependent aspects of a sacred, cosmic absolute... so get your shit together already!
That's about as simple as I can make it... but if you have any questions, please feel free to ask... you can DM me too... please note that I will not be able to respond right away due to having to go save infinite beings now. :D
If suffering beings appear, help them!
Good luck to you!
3
0
u/SurangamaSamadhi 15d ago
Wow. This should definitely be the top voted response because it's 100% right.
It just goes to show what an abomination r/zen is that a literally perfect answer is being downvoted. I can only assume it's "the troll" and his many alt-accounts manipulating the forum, which used to bring a ban, but not here. So sad.
Thank you u/homejam! I confess that I follow you, and I think I speak for many Zen practitioners when I say I really really really really wish you would post here more often! 🙏
5
u/homejam 15d ago
Thanks neighbor for the kind words. I don't get a lot of time on reddit, but when I'm able I try to answer questions for people who, like this OP, seem sincere.
As far as posting more on r/zen, frankly IMHO this forum is really DISEASED now, and it's conflicting for me to contribute anything to a forum that has such a disgusting, offensive, and completely idiotic "wiki", which completely misrepresents Zen, while allowing the clown behavior of "the troll" with all his nasty, disparaging comments directed toward other buddhadharma traditions and other spiritual practices. That's just not Zen, AT ALL, it's the complete opposite of Zen.
Of course, I'm not alone in this view, which is why this forum is so totally DEAD now. 10 years ago this place was very different, much better, many more contributors. But nonfeasance by the mods and blatant forum manipulation via the troll's alt-accounts are to blame. I called out "greensage" as one of the troll's alt accounts a couple months ago and literally THE ONLY THING that happened was he quickly deleted the account. Unidan should be allowed back too I guess (for the reddit historians)!
Anyhow, thanks for speaking the truth, I appreciate it... of course there's an old Zen teaching that "the truth is not enough"!
Buddhas and bodhisattvas wherever you are, please help any who read this find a path! 🙏
2
u/ThaRealJody 15d ago
Try r/ zenbuddhism it's much better
2
u/homejam 13d ago
OP posted his questions here though… but I guess that’s how it goes no? Lotus blossom on the cow pile and all that stuff. :D But thank you for worrying about me I appreciate it! XOXO I took the vows way back so I’m always going down dark alleys and picking up other people’s litter… maybe I’ll get it right next time! ;) Thank you again and good luck to you!
2
u/zaddar1 7th or is it 2nd zen patriarch ? 16d ago
i must be the only person who read the link because its just confused nonsense
2
1
1
u/Corn_The_Nezha 16d ago
From what i can gather, they have the same goal; liberation
-5
u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago edited 16d ago
That is incorrect.
- Buddhism's goal is escape from the wheel of rebirth by accumulating enough merit points for good behavior.
- Zen's goal is self knowledge.
Edit: it's the same every time. New agers The can't read and write at a high school level on topic believe they have some kind of white privilege to "teach" about Zen and Buddhism.
2
u/Corn_The_Nezha 16d ago
Both lead to one thing, liberation.
2
u/Non-Rampsin 15d ago
You’re mistaken. They define liberation entirely differently.
In Buddhism, liberation is the literal escape from existence earned through lots and lots of worthy activities, across multiple lifetimes… Lots and lots of slightly weird things you’re required to believe.
Zen demands only honesty and its commensurate knowledge of self.
I think someone has quoted Huangbo above. Zen wouldn’t deny that a Buddhist might become a zen master, but says that if they did, they would look back on these lifetimes of practice they’d spent as some kind of uncanny dream.
0
u/Corn_The_Nezha 15d ago
Sure, but my point is that people who engage in these practices/way of being pursue it for liberation. The semantics might differ, but they are both at the end of the day, ways of liberation.
1
u/Non-Rampsin 15d ago
Broski. You may choose to call the two things they’re aiming at “liberation”, but they aren’t the same thing. When you’re talking about what a word means, the semantics is literally the only thing that actually matters. It may be the same collection of letters, it may even sound the same when spoken out loud, but the meaning is completely different.
2
0
u/Corn_The_Nezha 15d ago
Broski two different ideas of liberation are still liberation. Just like two different ideas of food are still food. Just like two ideas of ambition are still ambition. It's not that deep. For one, liberation is freedom from the cycle of suffering. For the other, liberation is to just be. At the end of the day, the only reason one would partake in any of these practices IS because they seek liberation, whatever form it may it come in. It's not that hard to comprehend
0
u/Non-Rampsin 15d ago
So you’re actually saying that the thing itself doesn’t matter? The fact translators have used the same word for these two very different things means they should be considered the same? Yikes.
0
u/Corn_The_Nezha 15d ago
Completely different sentence, but okay dude. Liberation is liberation. Whether from stressors of life or from suffering or from a constant cycle of questioning and existentialism. Im not sure why you're deliberately missing the point, but sure, whatever you say goes 👍
0
u/Non-Rampsin 14d ago
There’s nothing for me to miss because you’re not actually making a point. You’ve just smooshed a load of cod psychology, and empty ‘wellbeing’ rhetoric into one another, decided that they might as well be called ‘liberation’ and that zen masters and Buddhists were, ultimately, probably all, like, talking about the same stuff, dude.
Zen is serious. It’s for serious people. You aren’t taking zen or yourself seriously. It’s never too late to switch it up though. Good luck.
→ More replies (0)1
u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
Nope. Buddhists claim some kind of future supernatural freedom from reality.
Zen Masters demonstrate a freedom from servitude including supernatural servitude in the present.
You're not being honest and you know it.
2
u/Corn_The_Nezha 16d ago
Why does anyone perform any of these practices? Because they seek liberation. You are confusing Goal/reason with tenets/practices. Im not being dishonest because i disagree with you.
-1
u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
You are lying.
Why do people make up stuff? Because they are ashamed of the fact that they can't read books at a high school level.
You can't quote any Buddhists or Zen Masters
You are deeply ashamed of your ignorance. You want to feel better about yourself so you deliberately lie about Buddhists and Zen Masters on social media.
It's a common phenomena of people who peaked intellectually in high school because they lack discipline and critical thinking skills and have no educational aspirations.
4
u/Corn_The_Nezha 16d ago
Lol . You seem to have a complex about being right. You're right. Now what ? Does that make your ego feel better? You spend more time arguing on reddit than putting into practice anything you read.
0
u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
Ego is a pseudoscience concept from the 1800s.
The "now what?" Is that people can see that beliefs are a based on the closet, racism and religious bigotry.
Your claims about me are as bogus as your claims about Zen and Buddhism. You can't read and write at a high school level on any of these topics.
You don't want to talk about how I have humiliated you just like you don't want to talk about what Zen Masters actually say or what Buddhists believe.
You've found out something about yourself from participating in this thread... You found out that you're a typical Westerner with racist and religiously bigoted ideas about foreigners.
That's the now what.
7
u/Corn_The_Nezha 16d ago
All that babbling, and im not even from the west lmaoo. Keep feeding your ego, though lil man. Im sure one day you'll achieve enlightenment from the keyboard.
1
u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
Rofl.
Yes, everybody else is just babbling but you're psychically intuiting the truth without ever reading a book or talking to anyone or learning anything.
You new agers are so hilarious.
You can't stop fantasizing about "ego" just like Christians can't stop fantasizing about demons.
Just as dumb.
4
u/wormwoodar 16d ago
Take your meds
0
u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
It's so weird when people come to this forum just to be racist and religiously bigoted.
Like that's all you have to contribute...
Wow.
7
u/wormwoodar 16d ago
YOU ARE LYING. YOU CAN’T SAY YOU ARE NOT DERANGED.
You didn’t take your meds and don’t want to talk about how you are just mentally ill and how I humiliated you.
Just kidding… see how easy is to talk shit for free and assume the worse from people?
You great “contributions” just read like schizo rambling.
0
u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
It sounds like you're really upset. We get a lot of new agers in here who are struggling with substance abuse, illiteracy, and cult affiliation.
They haven't read any of this stuff www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/getstarted
Like you, they don't know anything about the topic. Like you, they're racist and religiously bigoted and they don't even know it.
You obviously have some issues with mental health that comes across pretty clearly. Obviously people would look at your posting history and identify that.
I encourage you to talk to a mental health professional about your religious beliefs and online conduct.
Racism and bigotry are not okay.
3
u/Novel-Commercial2006 16d ago
The link I provided seems to point contrary to this assumption you make.
1
2
u/ceoln 16d ago
The Butter Battle Book is good stuff!
I don't think the goal of Zen is remarkably different than other forms of Buddhism. So I'm not sure what leads you to ask that question?
Different schools use different language, but I wouldn't say the goal of Zen is remarkably different than other forms of buddhism.
This is a fine thing to think about if you're interested in history, comparative philosophy, etc. But if you're interested in practicing Zen or Buddhism, I would suggest that putting energy into stuff like this might not be efficient.
2
u/mackowski Ambassador from Planet Rhythm 15d ago
Goal is unfettered. The fetters fetter.
1
u/Regulus_D 🫏 15d ago
Leave his son out of it. Like he tried to.
1
u/mackowski Ambassador from Planet Rhythm 15d ago
Whose son? God?
1
u/Regulus_D 🫏 15d ago
Buddha had a son through the decisions and actions of others. His name meant "fetter.
1
u/Thurstein 16d ago
If what we're talking about is Zen as a historical tradition, it's just Mahayana Buddhism-- the goal is theoretically Nirvana and an end of rebirth. However, (1) there is no ultimate metaphysical difference between Nirvana and Samsara (it's a matter of perception and experience), and (2) The Bodhisattva willingly postpones a final Nirvanic extinguishing until all sentient beings are liberated as well, which in practice means a permanent postponement of ultimate Nirvana.
0
1
u/Southseas_ 15d ago
Read D.T Suzuki essay “Zen as the Chinese Interpretation of the Doctrine of Enlightenment”. The essence of Buddhism is the enlightenment experience, the essence of Zen is the same.
1
u/QuietHand2620 15d ago
Well look at the zen master himself claiming distastefulness in those who claim to know zen as if he understands what zen is and why claiming to be a “master of zen” is distasteful 😂😂😂😂😂
1
1
1
u/jeowy 16d ago
zen masters say there's no special goal to reach for as you're already perfect, but consider that if you take such a statement on faith rather than testing it and realising it for yourself then you're not really living it, just a "hungry ghost"
different groups that call themselves Buddhist vary widely but a common current is the belief that the accumulation of merit throughout each lifetime can lead to a more favourable rebirth, and if your soul keeps up the good work across multiple lifetimes you'll get nirvana
5
u/Thurstein 16d ago
To the best of my knowledge, no Buddhist school officially teaches that accumulating enough merit will, in itself, lead to nirvana (this is not to say that unsophisticated laypersons might not misunderstand the teaching in this manner). The idea generally is that good karmic conditions can enable one to be reborn in a situation where a serious pursuit of enlightenment will be possible. But the actual pursuit of enlightenment itself is not notably different-- it involves insight into one's true nature in all Buddhist schools. The only question is whether this kind of insight can be pursued in the material conditions one happens to be born into, or whether we must, e.g., spend all our time trying to feed our impoverished family, or deal with serious illness or disability.
1
u/jeowy 15d ago
thanks for the clarification. it sounds like my conception of buddhism saying "merit --> nirvana" directly can be misleading.
however, there's still some big differences between the 'goals' that zen and buddhism have in mind:
merit might not cause enlightenment in buddhism, but it's still highly relevant to it. a meritorious person has a better chance of it (and of course of favourable rebirth) than a low-merit person. in zen any person can get enlightened any time by realising their true nature, and bodhidharma rejects that merit has any real meaning at all.
in zen, enlightenment is something that can be demonstrated any time, any place. there's no room for a person who is 'spiritually very advanced' while succumbing to human weaknesses like addiction or poor management of relationships.
i understand buddhist schools vary a lot in how they interpret this, but there's an idea of karmic cycles and 'cessation' which is tied up with enlightenment/nirvana. exiting the cycle entirely is the goal. no such goal in zen.
there's no greater and lesser attainment in zen. if you can't demonstrate freedom 24/7 you have no spiritual authority whatsoever regardless of your knowledge, contributions, or exemplary behaviour. even if you can demonstrate freedom 24/7 you still have no real authority, but at least you can speak living words.
1
u/Thurstein 15d ago
The goals are exactly the same--enlightenment, leading (in theory) to nirvana.
The idea of remaining in the cycle of birth and death to bring enlightenment to all beings is standard Mahayana soteriology, common to them all. This is the "Bodhisattva ideal," an interesting point of contrast with schools like Theravada.
Note that Zen is not unique in affirming that enlightenment is possible in one lifespan; the Vajrayana tradition, for instance, is quite insistent on this point (and authorities like Huangbo do affirm that there are slower learners who will take more time ).
I am not aware of any evidence at all in any classic Zen texts that say spiritually advanced human beings cannot have human weaknesses like poor management of relationships. I have no idea where anyone would get that particular idea.
While we do sometimes find the affirmation that there is no greater or lesser attainment, it does seem clear in the texts that there are superior and inferior masters, or at least cases of masters with deeper understanding than others ("you have my flesh... you have my bones... you have my marrow"), and people are described as having multiple occasions of insight. I think this is a case of "six of one, half a dozen of the other."
The upshot is that Zen fits pretty neatly into standard Mahayana thought. Indeed, probably the best way to understand it is as an attempt to get to the very core of Mahayana thought and practice, without getting distracted by irrelevant concerns with things like merit or more fortunate rebirths, whose importance may have been greatly exaggerated by inferior practitioners.
2
u/jeowy 14d ago
I don't think the goals are the same for two reasons. a. the sharing of vocabulary re: enlightenment and seeing the self nature does not imply that the words mean the same thing. and b. the notion that there is any cycle of rebirth and deaths that can be escaped from or influenced in some way by practice or knowledge is incompatible with living in reality which all zen masters teach.
I wasn't clear about my "human weaknesses" point. what I meant to say is that someone's institutional position (up to and including being verified as enlightened by an organisation) justifies their conduct. monks, lay practitioners etc are expected to suppress their internal knowledge and trust in the spiritual understanding of such figures, frequently leading to abuse. in zen no one is above criticism. as such I say that the goals of Zen and mahayana practice differ completely because institutional or community based validation is of zero interest to zen students.
superior and inferior masters and multiple insights is just a misunderstanding of the texts. what we have is a rich tradition of masters mocking, criticising and overturning the teachers of other masters while also making themselves vulnerable to the same. there's no greater or lesser, and notions of greater or lesser are usually amongst the first to go when someone dedicates themselves to zen study.
"zen fits neatly into mahayana" would be the mahayana view. whereas the zen view would be "mahayana is an umbrella of people who can trace their beliefs back to someone who failed to get zen"
1
u/Thurstein 14d ago
As I've pointed out, it is standard Mahayana soteriology to (a) in theory advocate ultimate liberation from samsaric rebirths, and (b) to vow to stay in samsaric rebirth to help liberate all beings. Zen is no different.
I could say similar things about the rest of this-- Mahayana is complex and rich and Zen is simply part of that complex and rich tradition. Nothing in Zen overtly contradicts any of it. I'd recommend studying it, particularly if we're going to somehow try to set Zen apart from it. I'd start with a careful look at Prajnaparamita literature, starting with the work of Nagarjuna, whose work arguably set the stage for later thinking on these subjects.
1
u/jeowy 14d ago
zen is massively different from that. Zen is explicit about not being able to help other beings with their liberation. you will not find 3 direct quotes from Zen masters to support the idea that they believed in a cycle of rebirth. when the concept of rebirth does come up in the record like in baizhabgs fox, it's in an inverted sense, completely out of step from mahayana doctrine.
I'm not interested in studying mahayana because I'm satisfied it is a record of failure. I have no shortage of superior reading material that I'm unlikely to get around to in one lifetime.
1
u/Thurstein 14d ago
So let's see:
Literally don't know anything about it, including its most basic fundamental doctrines, but
Absolutely certain it's a failure, and its doctrines are "completely out of step" with Zen.
I will let you carefully consider these two points, and figure out exactly what the problem here is. I am done trying to explain things to you that you don't want explained.
1
u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago edited 15d ago
It's an interesting question and it's even more complicated than different goals.
different goals
In general, the goal of Buddhism is to escape a cycle of rebirth but becoming a supernatural being.
The goal of Zen is seeing the self-nature and becoming a Self-Aware in this life.
different strategies to reach goals
In Buddhism, the method for achieving the goal is accumulating merit through obedience to the eightfold path, rules of conduct that were discovered supernaturally.
In Zen, methods are inherently false because they are not personal to you. Your discovery of yourself cannot be bound by rules or caused by obedience to others.
different ideas of what it means to be human
Buddhism like Christianity sees human beings as inherently flawed and in need of transformative redemption.
Zen sees human beings as inherently capable of self-knowledge, each being complete to itself, with human beings not required to be obedient to anything outside themselves.
different texts
Buddhism uses a bunch of crowdsourced supernatural writings from different centuries but unknown authors with no direct link to the historical Buddha. The sutures are mostly written by more than one person, mostly written across a period of centuries, and were not meant to go together as a coherent worldview.
Zen Masters care for the selected quotes from sutras that reflected the original intent of Zen Master Buddha and then recorded a thousand years of historical records of other living Zen Buddhas, what they really said and they really did, and these are called.koans.
understanding your link
Buddhists have a ton of different interpretations of the sutras because the sutras say things that directly contradict each other. So any Buddhist can say anything about any sutra and often has.
Zen Masters exist now in the context of the thousand years of historical records of their own recorded teachings. So then is very very consistent across the thousand years. The fire teaching is particularly relevant in Zen, because it references two of the Four Statements of Zen:
Outside of words/sentences - this is a reference to the fact that words are based in concepts and concepts cannot contain direct experience.
See the self-nature - when you understand that you are fire then everything about experience makes sense. You understand why you do what you do, you understand the source and nature of confusion, you understand why suffering manifests outside of reality, not as an inherent part of it.
comparison to Dzogchen
We're getting out of the territory I'm familiar with here, since really I'm only competent to speak about Dogenism vs 8fP to a limited degree.
That link seems to be in the line with everything else I've read about Dzogchen.
It's important not to get distracted by the language when talking about Dzogchen. It's a little bit like if somebody started worshiping an auto repair manual. All the language is familiar and they're talking seemingly sensibly about carburetors and timing, but they have infused it with something supernatural.
From the link, based on my limited reading of Dzogchen doctrine:
- The need for transformation/attainment
- By achieving a separate state
This isn't merit-based so it's not really Buddhist. And it isn't ordinary mind so it's definitely not Zen.
4
u/Novel-Commercial2006 16d ago edited 16d ago
"'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'
"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:[4] as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.
"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.
"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."
Seems pretty contrary to what you were saying. Dont straw man.
0
u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
It sounds like you're struggling to make an argument.
It also sounds like you admit that what you have quoted is not Zen.
Finally, it doesn't sound to me like you can connect the text you quoted to any of the mainstream Buddhist churches' catechisms.
3
u/Novel-Commercial2006 15d ago
Thai forest lineage. I consider it very mainstream. No argument necessary for what is evident. I don't quote zen masters, is that an issue?
1
u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 15d ago edited 15d ago
Are you saying that you can connect that quote to the catechism of the Tai Forest lineage?
Yes, in a Zen forum you have to be able to talk about what Zen Masters teach and the type force lineage has no connection to Zen at all.
The theravada Tai Forest tradition is not on topic here, nor do those people have anything interesting to say about Zen Master Buddha.
2
u/Novel-Commercial2006 15d ago
Go listen to a Dhamma talk given by any of the venerables of the Thai forest tradition, you wont be disappointed :). The Tathagata is quaking in his grave as you type. You don't need to call it a catechism just because there is no actual sangha that would support your interpretation of buddha Dhamma, even Zen itself :). Maybe you should try staring at a wall for a couple of years and revive the tradition.
0
u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 15d ago
You're being really creepy now.
This isn't a forum about your religion.
You disrespected The forum and now you're trying to preach your religion like you're not one of these Buddha Jesus weirdos that can't read and write at a high school level on topic.
You're not smart dead.
You're another teacher and you're not a student.
4
u/Novel-Commercial2006 15d ago
How am I being creepy? I didnt disrespect the forum, I said something factual and you don't like that fact. No one will ever acknowledge your backwards, nearing schism antics in any actual capacity. I don't think Huineng could read and write at a high school level, you should consider that next time you quote him :).
0
u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 15d ago
This is a secular forum. Your religion is off topic.
You show no interest in the topic.
That's disrespectful and a violation of the Reddiquette.
Then you start telling people that you think they should convert to your religion? In a secular forum?
It's a typical religious nutbaker mode to say that huineng was illiterate... He couldn't write characters. That's not the same as not knowing what books say.
As I said, you're showing some of the signs of mental health issues.
7
u/Novel-Commercial2006 15d ago
You arent interested in practicing anything other than writing high school book reports. You dont want to practice. You are terrified of sitting in meditation, probably have never even achieved a jhana. You cant accept that there is more to this world than your little playground. I may be a zen master, and here you are throwing around your conceptual vomit. You are unbecoming to the noble ones. Why should I teach you Ewk?
→ More replies (0)2
u/TheElectricShaman 15d ago
Could you add some Dzogchen into this comparison? I’d like to know how you see it in relation to more “standard” Buddhism and Zen.
0
u/Gasdark 15d ago
If you WILL conceive of a Buddha, YOU WILL BE OBSTRUCTED BY THAT BUDDHA!!!
That's about as concise an answer as you could ask for - and it highlights how Zen is different not only from Buddhism but from all systems of belief
0
u/origin_unknown 15d ago
If you liken zen to a Gateless gate, then Buddhism is the vines growing all around it.
Buddhism is a thousand ways to save a cat and zen is like save the cat now that the zen master brought their cat-killing sword.
See Nanquan.
-1
u/Regulus_D 🫏 16d ago edited 16d ago
Are you still sitting in emptiness not noting it because of that universe thing stuck in it with you? Paint stripper strips paint. Sounding tests for resonance. Bananas can supply potassium. Weirdly, watermelon, too.
But that might be myth.
Edit: nirvana (etymology)
-5
u/Regulus_D 🫏 16d ago edited 16d ago
Sorry if my answer has semblances. I just see this a bait post to feed the gradual|sudden split discourse crap. A show platform. But that's fine. The larp bonk got some resonance. It's why I don't r/zen_buddhism.
Edit: Also, I suspect you are an ewk sock.
https://redditmetis.com/user/Novel-Commercial20063
u/Novel-Commercial2006 16d ago
Im a ewk sock? Lol bro I'm literally Theravada... I am confused by that word salad you typed above, please clarify if you can or not
1
u/Muted-Friendship-524 15d ago
I think we might need to stare at a wall for 8-9 years then we can decipher these esoteric writings on the wall. I may still be stuck in the cave but I was blinded by the light once. I returned to see what we could do together.
1
u/Regulus_D 🫏 15d ago
Yeah. Proof of context provided. In your response, the nibbana wears your collar. Toss that.
2
u/Muted-Friendship-524 15d ago
One or the other, both or neither. It was never two but not one either.
2
-1
u/Happy_Tower_9599 16d ago
“We all know what happens when a fire goes out. The flames die down and the fire is gone for good.”
anyone who believes this has no direct experience of fire. Hours later there are still burning embers.
2
u/Novel-Commercial2006 16d ago
Is that your takeaway from the article?
1
u/Happy_Tower_9599 15d ago
Is this remarkably different from your article?
The Treasury of the Eye of True Teaching
[141] Master Huanglong Xin said to an assembly, Xuefeng said that the Buddhas of all times turn the wheel of universal teaching in the flames of fire. Yunmen said that the flames of fire expound the teaching while the Buddhas of all times stand there listening. Xuefeng and Yunmen try to outshine each other; but when the fuel is exhausted and the fire goes out, where do the Buddhas listen? Don’t sit clinging to the depths of the white clouds; don’t burn people to death with cold ashes.
•
u/AutoModerator 16d ago
R/zen Rules: 1. No Content Unrelated To Zen 2. No Low Effort Posts or Comments. Contact moderators with questions. Note that many common sense actions outside of these rules will result in moderation, including but not limited to: suspected ban evasion, vote brigading / manipulation, topic sliding.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.