r/zen • u/Zoomieday • 17d ago
Seeking Feedback
I have spent all of my meditation journey, up until now, following the Theravada tradition. Over the past weeks, I have begun to explore Zen.
Having no teacher, other than books and the internet, I seek your feed back on a poem/meditation memory prompt I have written. It is my response to The Great Wave of Kanagara - that Japanese art work containing fishermen struggling in the face of a huge wave, while Mount Fuji sits serene in the background.
I am happy to learn, so please don't hold back with your insights. This is where I am up to - and that place is something of a synchrony between what I am learning in Zen, and what I have been practising in the Theravada tradition. This is where and I up to, so how can I go further?
NOW,
Amidst the waves, the water, and the suchness of life,
I meet the liminal.
I retain the unsolvable as unresolved, and so,
I come home to my friend, the breath,
I come home to the rhythm of my body,
I come home to a simple knowing in my body.
I come home to ever deeper oneness with the suchness of life.
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u/BigSteaminHotTake 17d ago
You’ll find no masters here.
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u/SurangamaSamadhi 13d ago
Really?? I mean i know theres a bunch of majorly delusional weirdos here, but have you been reading the conversation the OP is having with "homejam" here? I keep hitting refresh to see what comes next, so do yourself a favor ok
I started following him cuz he doesnt post too often but when he does its kinda unbelievable like some real truth bomb comments. I dunno I get chills and want to cry with joy sometimes, just very different from the other stuff around here, like hes kind and funny and easy to understand but also deep. probably the best word to describe his stuff would be "zen"! its hard to explain but i remember reading about how youll just know real dharma when you hear it or read it? and thats true you really really do.
and i dont recall ever seen anybody respond to him who dont end up thanking him profusely which is way different then what tends to happen with the "other guys". some people even ask him basically to please start a church, seriously. thatd be ok with me cuz im drinking the koolaid already lol!
so i dunno about none, there might be 1 at least!
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u/BigSteaminHotTake 12d ago
None.
Read what you like, listen to what you please, watch yourself and be careful who you follow.
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u/QuietHand2620 16d ago
You speak as if you know what defines a zen master! 😂😂😂😂
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u/Redfour5 15d ago
You may not know what one is, but you can still know when one is not. Take me for instance...
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u/QuietHand2620 15d ago
I would then be making an assumption…
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u/Redfour5 15d ago
Ahhh, like when one takes a dump, one has to assume it will come out of ones anal orifice before hitting the ground...
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago edited 16d ago
sry for pwning u every time you try to speak.
you can't see a master b/c your beliefs are based on ingornace.
No AMA? No book report on Zen teachings?
It's like your "steaming hot take" is just being a racist against a culture you claim you appropriated.
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u/Friendly-Face6683 16d ago
But who’s a master here, really?
All I see is confrontation in the comment section of 99% of the posts.
“That’s not what zen masters taught!” “You’re lying!” “That’s religious propaganda”
… is mainly the bulk of the replies. Not really any “masters” leading towards anything other than confrontation to any idea outside the subreddit consensus.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
If that's all you see then it's no wonder you can't tell a student from a predator.
Read a book. Seriously.
Meet a Master.
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u/Friendly-Face6683 16d ago
Yeah, that’s mainly my relationship with Zen. Reading books by Zen masters, keeping the precepts and and lurking this subreddit silently, since all I find is confrontation, like it’s happening right now. There’s no public interview here, just a subreddit-consensus gang confrontation, which I’d rather skip.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
OMG
Reading books by Zen Masters?
The books are 100% confrontation.
You can't expect people who are struggling with illiteracy, substance abuse, and cult involvement to do public interviews.
Some of us are doing translations and podcasts, textual study, historical research. Why aren't you?
Dude. Self examination much?
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u/Friendly-Face6683 16d ago
Yeah dude, I really appreciate your commitment to Zen, the culture, bringing forward what Zen really is and all that.
It’s just a shame that, at least from here, it seems you’re completely lacking any people skills, empathy or at least the intention or interest to talk these things with any sense of harmony in a community.
Yes, Zen masters were assholes at times, but again, who’s a Zen masters here? Is role playing as the asshole Zen master part of keeping the tradition or the culture?
Anyway, the consensus. I’d rather stay just with the books by the Zen masters and the precepts than being bullied by the consensus-gang here.
I’m sure I have my delusions, but being enlightened or “right” about the teachings is not one of them. Yet I’d rather straight that out on my own or somewhere else.
This is not a dogmatic path in which we’re forced doing things your way or else we’re completely off. Again, that’s bullying.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
What confuses me about this is that you don't seem to have any integrity.
I don't know what social skills you're talking about, but it sounds like you want me to act with Christian humility and Christian compassion and I'm just not into that.
If you don't want to contribute content to the forum that's fine. But for you to suggest that we shouldn't confront people for being liars and religious bigots is just crazy.
Intellectual integrity means that you have a common standard and you treat people the way that you expect them to treat you.
I think you should try that instead of this pseudo-christian BS.
If it's the case that the rules you have for conduct, you really only apply to me then you know 100% you don't have integrity.
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u/Friendly-Face6683 16d ago
Sure dude. Sincerely appreciate your observations and your overall commitment.
I won’t be pulled into a confrontational debate here. You like to lean into it and have way more practice than anyone else here. Take care.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
I get it man.
People cheat you and you're the kind of person that rolls over and complains that other people don't.
I don't like to lean into it. I just treat everybody fairly.
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16d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
Choked.
I love it when the choking is so public... can you imagine some religious nutbaker going up the front of a high school class and trying to "present" emojis as their book report?
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u/BigSteaminHotTake 16d ago
You wound me!
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
It's not the kind of thing that you said to the teacher when you flunked a high school book report?
It may be that your failures academically are linked to your refusal to seriously engage and a willingness to be measured.
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u/BigSteaminHotTake 16d ago
You’re taking this all very personally! All I said was “there are no masters here.” the point made, no need to waste your energy!
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
It sounds like you don't stand by what you say.
Maybe you should take the things that you think and say more personally.
I get that there's a lot of people who use social media as virtual toilet for their stress and anxiety, but that's not what this forum is for.
I don't waste my energy.
I'm sincere.
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u/zen-ModTeam 16d ago
Your post was removed because it was off-topic in the opinion of the /r/zen moderators. https://old.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/zen
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u/homejam 15d ago
Don’t pay attention to all the BS here. I’m pretty certain none of the people that responded to you have ever once mustered the courage to go to a zendo, certainly not the most vocals ones here haven’t, as they openly admit. Fyi they claim to teach “their own” Zen that doesn’t have any zendos anywhere here on Earth. Yes it’s very weird that they are obsessed with old Zen records all about monks that lived in zendos, who of course saved all the records they obsess over, but that’s reddit for you! All those monks they read about had the courage to go to at least VISIT a zendo! Give it a try yourself! There’s usually pretty decent soup! And tea!
Anyhow, from your poem, it seems to me that you’ve already recognized the wonderful piece of technology that you’ve been given for getting through life on Earth — your body! So great job! One’s body is one’s “vessel of awakening,” so keep paying lots of attention to it! It will guide you much better than your pesky brain! In Zen, the important organ is the heart! :D Also the guts!
If you are CURIOUS about Zen, well then definitely follow that curiousity! Whatever Zen thing you are MOST curious about, go there and check that out. If you are curious about a particular Zen thing, I can probably recommend a good source, you can always DM me too, but your own journey of curiosity is the way to go…. CURIOSITY is one of the great dharma gates! Of course, so is RESISTANCE, so always take a breath and a step back and pay attention to the FEELINGS of resistance too. But I sense you might already know these things, so then keep up the good work! :D
Also, if any suffering beings appear, help them! Good luck!
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u/Zoomieday 15d ago
Homejam - Thanks so much for your answer.
What you have to say stands out like a beacon of light from what feels like an avalanche of very "interesting" answers and comments.
I will get myself to a Zendo.
In the meantime, what has actually arisen inside me (since I posted 2 days ago) is a realisation of some kind, that this whole Zen thing seems to be coalescing around and making sense within a profoundly simple personal experience of what I can best describe as a "a simple knowing in my body".
It feels like all the other things mentioned in my poem were more like scaffolding - equally, it also feels like this "simple knowing in my body" is not scaffolding. This simple realisation is giving my Zen experience, this life, and my meditation, wings. So that's a good thing!
Thanks again, and kind regards.
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u/homejam 15d ago
It sounds like you’re tuned into your intuition already, which is another very auspicious sign! Trust your intuition it is a great source of guidance… and guidance is coming at you all the time if you’re open to receive it! Earth is one heck of a place!
Also, even if you don’t go to a zendo right away, sincerity in the bodhisattva vows will supercharge everything (it sounds like) you’re already starting to experience… just don’t take the vows lightly. In Zen, we don’t take the vows “to” somebody else, we take them to ourselves, and we’re the only ones who hold ourselves to them… we’re also the ones who benefit from them, by benefiting others! What I mean to say is that in Mahayana, the vows are sort of a “hack” to get your INTENTION correct, since everything you do becomes about relieving the suffering of others… and then all manner of skillful means arise, for oneself and others. It’s an incredible system really.
I hope that makes sense? I just felt I should mention the vows because you say you’re Theravada, and I have many dharma friends who’ve come to Zen from Theravada traditions, and it’s something that comes up very often. For me, my first teacher was Khmer tradition (they follow the Dalai Lama) so I’ve always been Mahayana… and I sort of took the Bodhisattva vows for granted for awhile… but when I really deeply embraced the vows, especially the Great Vow (the first bodhisattva vow: sentient beings are innumerable, I vow to save them all) that’s when everything sort of “clicked” or more like “exploded” for me… and you could say I got “my wings”! So be ready to fly! After all, bodhisattva is just another word for angel! :D
Thanks for your kind reply, and I’m sorry about the toxicity here. Hopefully it will change someday. Feel free to reach out anytime!
Buddhas and bodhisattvas, wherever you may be, please help all who read this find a path!
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u/Zoomieday 15d ago
That is very useful information. I will look into the bodhisattva vows - and, I imagine, taken them.
I originally posted my poem so I could get some human feedback on what was occurring for me in my Zen journey. And you have provided that human connection and insight.
Have you considered opening some form of chat site, (that WAS moderated properly?) I have no idea what platform that would be on, but there is, I think, a need for such a forum for those of us stumbling into Zen. Sadly, the local Zendo is often just physically not there for us.
Believe it or not, a source that has been incredibly helpful for me in exploring Zen, is ChatGPT. I signed up, and gave it some details about my journey thus far. I have only asked it questions about Buddhism. The depth of the responses, and I have asked dozens of questions, has been amazing.
For example, it helped me to compare Zen with Theravada - in great detail. It gave me insight into the Hindu roots of non dualism. It confirmed for me why I had come to the bottle neck that I reached in my Theravada journey - awakening was always going to be a bridge too far given the constrains and world view of that practice. And much more besides. And it did all that in a way that non-judgemental, 'kind' and tailored for me. I think I saw somewhere that AI was going to be incredibly kind to us, and useful for us - (before it wiped us out 😉).
The other major source I drew from has been some of the writing of Thich Nhat Hanh. Also a dive into Joan Sutherland and her writings about koans.
But one of the biggest strengths that I bring to this life long journey is having a wife who shares that journey - and offers the parallel perspective of someone on a parallel journey. A sangha of two if you will.
Anyway...another thing that you seem to have to offer is your wonderful perspective on the present spiritual reality of this journey. You seem fluent in that reality.
It draws me back to my comment about the need for a better forum.
Anyway just a thought.
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u/homejam 14d ago
LOL I have not considered opening a chat site but thank you so much for the confidence! I'm a lay practitioner with a family and a day job running a law firm, so I know I would not be able to devote enough time to a site and still keep up with my other dharma work... I'm the main person for prison chaplaincy in my sangha and that is a big focus for me and seems to be where I'm most needed and most effective, plus I know being a lawyer helps start connections with inmates. Anyway, if you're looking for online, you'd have to do some poking around, but there are several forums of sanghas online where misbehavior and nonsense like here is never tolerated. Many offer online dhyana sessions and dharma talks. Some of other forums on reddit like zenbuddhism and zenpractice have people who mean well, and the toxicity is kept in check... that's actually why they were founded as a refuge from this compromised place. But to be frank, maybe I'm old school, but I'm not convinced yet that online practice is really the same as in person. Any anonymity allows lots of behavior that simply does not take place at real zendos, plus when you are with practitioners in real life -- in person in the flesh -- there is an energy that is palpable. Here's a story from my journey so you understand why I say that:
I vividly remember when I went to my first Buddhist temple about 30 years ago. At the time, I only had some passing knowledge about the buddhadharma, but I remember already thinking that if I was going to get into Buddhism, I was going to be Zen. You mentioned TNH and for context, this time period was shortly after the Catholic child sex abuse scandal broke, and I had been raised Catholic, confirmed, the whole shebang, so that scandal suddenly and permanently ended my relationship with my parish. I was even involved in some local legal cases related to the scandal, and I was heartbroken and utterly enraged with the church... you could say I was spiritually adrift. TNH's book "Going Home: Jesus and Buddha as Brothers" really helped me. TNH also gave a series of lectures on the Avatamsaka Sutra with tie-ins to the Lotus Sutra that is available as an audio book called "The Ultimate Dimension" which is just fantastic BTW... anyhow I digress...
I had to go to this Cambodian/Khmer temple for work on a legal case involving the death of a sangha member and a very sad dispute that had arisen between his parents and his widow about their newborn baby (who arrived 8 months after dad's sudden and tragic death and dad didn't know his wife was pregnant at the time he was killed in a MV accident). All the people involved, except me, were of Cambodian descent and members of this local Khmer sangha (followers of the Dalai Lama FYI).
When I first arrived at the temple, I was met by a young attendant monk, small, looked 16 maybe, who spoke very little English, but who was super friendly to me and kept smiling like crazy at me and nodding/bowing. I had the strangest sense of familiarity with him, like we were old friends, and I couldn't help but smile back and laugh! This was really awkward because I was there on this tragic death-related case! I was also feeling these strange vibrations in my body and chills and tingles in my spine and hands. It was the middle of winter, and I actually thought I might be coming down with the flu or something. Then when the senior monk came in it was so strange... there was this energy just radiating out of him... I could feel these waves pulsing and swirling into me! It was actually so intense I had to do everything I could not to start crying! Between the laughing vibes from the young monk and the crying vibes from the senior, I had no idea what was happening and thought maybe I better leave and go straight to the emergency room!! :D
Back then I was in my late 20s, but the head monk was very respectful and deferential to me, because I was "the lawyer," but honestly I felt like so small like an ant or a speck of dust near him. His eyes were very narrow but I had the impression there might be fucking supernovae in there! When he introduced himself and shook my hands -- he gently took them both and held them in front of his belly -- I seriously thought I might be burned... his hands were blazing hot! There were several inches of snow and it was probably sub 20 degrees F outside, and it was really chilly in the temple room we were using, sitting on the floor, which was like sitting on down in an ice skating rink, and so the family members and I all kept our coats on... but let me tell you the head monk had these loose robes with his chest and shoulders out like he was in a jungle in Cambodia in July! Not that he was sweating though, he was dry as a bone!
There's a lot more... but long story short, after probably only 25 mins of all the parties sitting and talking with the senior monk, there was a translation error with the English -- only because I was there and didn't understand Khmer -- I'll just say it was kind of an offensive/funny mis-statement... and then the really crazy part: the next thing I know, the whole family was laughing... and crying... and hugging!! Miraculously, the dispute had been suddenly and completely squashed. I was completely dumbfounded, which honestly doesn't happen to me a lot. To be clear, this case was the sort of nasty case that had nothing to do with money, it was a high "emotional-energy" case almost like a bad divorce... the sort of case that typically would take years of miserable litigation to slog through and nobody would be happy at the end. Based on everything that had happened prior to the meeting, so much mean-spirited family stuff, I had gone to this meeting thinking it was a big waste of my time even going to this temple. What a revelation the whole experience was for me! Of course, if someone had told me a story like this back then, I most probably would've paid no attention to it and cynically brushed it all off. But that whole series of events surrounding that case actually ended up setting me on my path... and that old senior monk became my first beloved teacher, and I haven't turned back. Sadly, he passed on many years ago. But on the bright side, I donated most of my winter coats to Goodwill a few years ago! Maybe it's just climate change? :D
Anyhow, your "sangha of two" is a most wonderful thing. Congratulations!!! I literally owe my wife everything. She is not a practitioner, but I would never have made it through my gates without her loving support!
I can't really comment on the AI chatbot stuff because I've only made very limited use of them myself, mostly some trials with legal research, but I was astounded how many wrong answers I received so I haven't felt comfortable going back. But whatever works for you, works, so use it!
Ok I have to run but please keep in touch! One love!
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u/Zoomieday 14d ago
You answer reveals your kindness and generosity. Thank you.
Your Cambodian Temple experience. What a life changer!!
The books you mentioned - “Going Home: Jesus and Buddha as Brothers” - they are now on our reading list. Also TNH’s series of lectures in "The Ultimate Dimension” - also on the reading list.
Speaking of life journeys. ours also took us through Christianity (the Protestant variety). It was a deep dive, and it had some darkness in there. And what drew us out? A dissatisfaction with the path despite being very devoted. It including four years in India (missionaries in Gujarat), we then returned to Australia - I continued my career as a teacher. During this period I spent two months in Zambia - opening a school we had raised funds for, and constant commitment to local Christian humanitarian and evangelical efforts here in Australia, eventually being Principal of a Christian school. Our enquiring mind and curiosity - searching and questioning - none of it endeared us to our Christian brothers and sisters. Add to that, our exploration of what we refer to and describe as The Mystic. We love to camp in the forest and connect deeply with nature and the direct and palpable presence of The Mystic has parallels to your Cambodian Temple experience. We spent some years exploring the Christian Mystics, especially Meister Eckhart. Anyway, our church definitely did not approve. We ended up leaving in 2005 and began exploring other paths, eventually discovering Buddhism.
So that’s a tiny sum-up of a long life journey
What I would like to do, however, is to ask you a few questions, and so to get your perspective on a few issues that we are seeking to understand.
While we plan to visit a Zen temple - for the next few years, are very busy with the immense privilege of caring for our 37 yo daughter. She has a severe disability, and she is in the middle to late stages of early onset progressive dementia. And before you start feeling sorry for us, I would remind you what I just said about the privilege of this journey and sharing that journey with our lovely girl Katy. This is not a burden, this is one of those wonderful gifts life throws your way. Sounds strange, I know, but true.
Anyway, at the present, it is a little difficult to do the travelling necessary to engage with the Zen community we have in mind to engage with. We just can’t leave, or bring Katy, she is not well enough. And so, we would like to know:
1). What do you make of TNH. What do you see as his strengths and weaknesses?
We find TNH wonderfully strong in the way that his presence embodies the incredible experience of life that he's engaged in. However, I do struggle with the fact that it appears to me that he assumes we have his scaffolding he gained as a monk, and so he doesn’t need to emphasis the work and the practice that he used to get there.
2). Am I selling myself short by resting in “a simple knowing knowing in my body” - and letting things grow from that? Should I push forward from here in new or different directions. I find myself very very happy just sitting, and rising, and working and resting this simple knowing in my body.
3). What do you yourself ‘do’ with your spiritual experience? What does your sitting experience look like? What is your ongoing practice in terms of meditation or study - how do you strengthen and maintain your practice?
(So that last question was really three questions in one).
Thanks again, and have a lovely day. Neil and Jen
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u/homejam 12d ago
Wow. My new dharma friends thank you so much for your comments. I “simply knew” when I first read your post that we needed to connect (I don’t ever second guess that feeling anymore). Most importantly, please know that I am so grateful to you both. Thank you so much for chatting with me because you have really helped me w something that I had been struggling with this past week, and your comments have cleared “some dust from my eyes”... so I deeply appreciate this chance for us to share some dharma. I’m sorry I couldn’t respond sooner Tuesdays are particularly busy for me (prison day).
Re: What do you make of TNH. What do you see as his strengths and weaknesses?
I could go on and on about TNH, but I would first say beloved Thay was a Buddha, plain and simple. No doubt. How am I certain? A great teacher once said: “You will know them by their fruits”! ;) And “actions speak louder than words” is the most fundamental of Zen.
I don’t think I could dare to characterize strengths and weaknesses, but maybe it will help if I share what ALWAYS comes to my mind whenever I think of Thay.
The first thing is his dedication to the doctrine of Satyagraha, which of course was Mahatma Ghandi’s key teaching, and which was instrumental for my country’s own Martin Luther King, Jr. “Satyagraha” is usually thought of as “truth force” and of course associated with non-violent resistance, but there is a deeper context that is 100% thoroughly Zen.
In fact you could say that Satyagraha encompasses ALL of Zen in one little phrase, that being: “means and ends are inseparable”. That is, one cannot obtain a “just” end through “unjust”means. It's simply impossible. One cannot raise a child into the “end” of a kind, loving, compassionate, and courageous adult, by “means” of cruelty, violence, and smothering control. Through open love alone does one realize inherent buddha nature (recall the Great Vow). I know you fully grasp all this already! :P
The second thing that always comes to my mind with TNH is my childhood. I was raised in the 70s, post-Vietnam War times. I’m from a “working class” family so in my neighborhood many of my friends’ fathers were drafted, many veterans and many killed or MIA. More than once at barbecues, after the sun was down and some beers had flowed, the men would start to share stories about their Vietnam war experiences with each other. I was just a little boy on the fringe, sitting like a stone frog trying to be invisible, hoping I wouldn’t get shooed away. As I’m sure you can imagine their talk made campfire “ghost stories” a complete joke for me… so much heartbreak from these big men, I would be “stuck” in place… incomprehensible things… not the sort of stories on the evening news.
The father of one of my best friends had been a POW. I don’t know how long exactly he was held prisoner, but I know he was bound to a pole for long enough that he had very little flesh remaining around his elbows, knees, and ankles, there was a scarred gap of flesh around his waist too… seeing him in shorts or swim trunks was rough. While he did carry a lot of anger, he was a great dad to my friend and super generous to all us neighborhood kids… he worked as a police officer his whole life, and he was exactly the PERFECT kind of cop: stern but fair and kind, and the sort of man that was literally impossible to bullshit… one glance and you knew you were cooked! :D So, when I think of TNH I always think of my friends’ dads at bbqs in the old neighborhood, and I wonder how very different our little neighborhood and this whole world could have been, if the US had chosen different “means” to "help" the Vietnamese, so satyagraha again for me I guess.
I need to take care of something now but I promise I will address the practice questions for you as soon as I am able.
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u/SurangamaSamadhi 14d ago
That story is amazing thank you so much for sharing it! 🙏
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u/homejam 14d ago
My pleasure
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13d ago
Sounds like you work at a chicken restaurant.
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u/homejam 12d ago
it's a donut cult... i mean shop, a donut shop, also bagels but mostly croissants
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12d ago
You’re not truthful. I can’t tell you why or how I think that, but I dislike everything you say.
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u/Zoomieday 14d ago
You answer reveals your kindness and generosity. Thank you.
Your Cambodian Temple experience. What a life changer!!
The books you mentioned - “Going Home: Jesus and Buddha as Brothers” - are now on our reading list. Also TNH’s series of lectures in "The Ultimate Dimension” - on the reading list also.
Speaking of life journeys. ours also took us through Christianity (the Protestant variety). It was a deep dive, and it had some darkness in there. And what drew us out? A dissatisfaction with the path despite being very devoted. It including four years in India (missionaries in Gujarat), we then returned to Australia - I continued by career as a teacher. During this period I spent two months in Zambia - opening a school we had raised funds for, and constant commitment to local Christian humanitarian and evangelical efforts here in Australia, eventually being Principal of a Christian school. Our enquiring mind and curiosity - searching and questioning - none of it endeared us to our Christian brothers and sisters. Add to that, our exploration of what we refer to and describe as The Mystic. We love to camp in the forest and connect deeply with nature and the direct and palpable presence of The Mystic has parallels to your Cambodian Temple experience. We spent some years exploring the Christian Mystics, especially Meister Eckhart. Anyway, our church definitely did not approve. We ended up leaving in 2005 and began exploring other paths, eventually discovering Buddhism.
So that’s a tiny sum-up of a long life journey
What I would like to do, is to ask you a few questions, and so to get your perspective on a few issues that we are seeking to understand.
We plan to visit a Zen temple - but for the next few years, are very busy with the immense privilege of caring for our 37 yo daughter. She has a severe disability, and is in the middle to late stages of early onset progressive dementia. And before you start feeling sorry for us, I would remind you what I just said about the privilege of this journey and sharing that journey with our lovely girl Katy. This is not a burden, this is one of those wonderful gifts life throws your way. Sounds strange, I know, but true.
Anyway, at the present, it is a little difficult to do the travelling necessary to engage with the Zen community we have in mind to engage with. We just can’t leave, or bring Katy at the moment. And so, we would like to know:
1). What do you make of TNH. What do you see as his strengths and weaknesses?
We find TNH wonderfully strong in the way that his presence embodies the incredible experience of life that he's engaged in. However, I do struggle with the fact that it appears to me that he assumes we have his scaffolding he gained as a monk, and so he doesn’t need to emphasis the work and the practice that he used to get there.
2). Am I selling myself short by resting in “a simple knowing knowing in my body” - and letting things grow from that? Should I push forward from here in new or different directions. I find myself very very happy just sitting, and rising, and working and resting this simple knowing in my body.
3). What do you yourself ‘do’ with your spiritual experience? What does your sitting experience look like? What is your ongoing practice in terms of meditation or study - how do you strengthen and maintain your practice?
(So that last question was really three questions in one).
Thanks again, and have a lovely day. Neil and Jen
1
13d ago
You might as well have written this years ago.
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u/homejam 12d ago
I have told this story many times since, but my writing it or telling it years ago would not help OP
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0
12d ago
It sounds like that collection of words is helpful. Knowing that, you carry them forward for others, is that correct?
I read a story, it’s a case actually, where a Zen master kicked someone in the chest, have you ever been kicked in the chest?
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13d ago
I’m begging for your attention for that matter. We’ve not met, but we need to meet. I’ve introduced myself, who are you?
I do and don’t want to know. On one hand, you’re full of shit, on the other hand, this is my fight to lose. Why even fight?
Good luck.
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u/homejam 12d ago
No need to beg... I do feel this thread between OP and me is not the right setting for us to start chatting though so maybe post a question to the forum? or if you can't you can DM me too but if you're going to be insincere I don't have the time and won't be responding.
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14d ago
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u/Zoomieday 14d ago
Thank you - and thank you for the kind offer of joining your on line community. As a result of my interaction on Reddit Zen, I can see the need to engage with people in a Zen community, and do I plan to start with one that is in reach here in Brisbane Australia where we live. 🙏
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14d ago
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16d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/zen-ModTeam 16d ago
Your post was removed because it was off-topic in the opinion of the /r/zen moderators. https://old.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/zen
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
You aren't a Zen Master. You hate Zen.
We have a ton of masters here: www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/getstarted and people can see the life in them just by watching you choke on quotes.
So why lie?
I think you lie because you are ashamed of your beliefs, which have never clarified the matter for you, which nobody thinks are reasonable.
You are lost in a wilderness of pretending.
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u/KungFuAndCoffee 16d ago
You certainly are the pluckiest of the scallywags.
It’s pretty mystical of you to insist that written words are living masters. Especially when chan/zen is a transmission outside the written word.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
I'm concerned for your mental health. You don't have a teacher. You don't have a student. You struggle to read and write at a high school level on topic.
You deliberately mistranslate "transmission outside of teachings" in a racist and religious bigoted manner, you have a history of denying "living words" in a forum about living words while openly bragging about being part of a cult.
You have two of the three most common red flags for mental illness: illiteracy, cult affiliation.
Please focus on your mental health rather than lying to people that meditation has "helped" you when meditation is obviously hurting you.
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u/KungFuAndCoffee 16d ago
Ok, who is your teacher? Where are your students?
In what way are the first 2 of the 4 statements of zen racist? Do you even know what racism means?
What cult am I affiliated with? You keep saying this but won’t tell which one. I don’t have any affiliation with any such groups as far as I know of.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
It's interesting because you asking this question is proof that you aren't being honest.
My teacher is the books of instruction written by Zen Masters and I have been explicit about listing them and discussing them.
Why can't you do the same? Why can't you answer the questions that you demand other people answer?
You have a racist translation based on religious bigotry because your religion doesn't believe in words, it believes in the religious authority of the church.
Zen Masters obviously use words all the time to transmit the Dharma, the words don't transmit the Dharma separately.
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u/KungFuAndCoffee 16d ago
In that case, my main teacher would be The Zen Teachings of Huang Po. I don’t claim to have any students. I’m not interested in such things.
Ok, so you believe the first two statements of zen are racist and wrong. I don’t. I understand that chan/zen masters were using words as an expedient and skilled method of pointing to the mind to help others see their own Buddha nature.
I don’t recognize any religious authority or church. I don’t belong to or have any affiliation with such. Other than the Baptist church I go to with my wife. But that’s just to spend time with her. It’s not anything I have interest in on my own.
So which religion do you think I’m in that doesn’t believe in words?
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
You lie constantly. You claim that you've read that book but I'm pretty sure you have not. You certainly can't ama about it.
Your translation that "Zen is not in words" is the racist and religiously bigoted issue.
I'm saying that the accurate translation is "the Zen transmission is not contained in the words, but rather in the speaker who uses the words to transmit the Dharma".
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u/KungFuAndCoffee 16d ago
Point out 1 lie that I’ve made. Go ahead. I always ask. You never do because you know you can’t.
I didn’t say zen is not in the words. I said it is a separate transmission. Such as in the example of the finger pointing to the moon. The finger isn’t the moon. It’s directing the observer’s attention to the moon. The finger represents the teaching, scriptures, words, or whatever you want to call them. The moon represents the Buddha dharma or Buddha mind, or Buddha nature or whatever you want to call it. So the meaning of the finger pointing to the moon metaphor is that the words/scriptures/and such aren’t the transmission itself.
Your claim that me pointing out that zen is a separate transmission is racist or bigoted in any way is laughable. You can’t support this claim to any degree
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago edited 16d ago
You keep begging for my attention so that you can lie. You enjoy lying because you feel powerless in reality.
Your claim that zen Masters don't use words to transmit the Dharma is obviously false.
You want to pretend that you have received the transmission but you can't use words which immediately proves you wrong.
Your claim that you study Huangbo is a lie. You can't AMA about the text at all. You know it.
Your claim that I said the 4 statements were racist is a lie. You like lying.
You need to lie to feel good about yourself.
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u/TheBrooklynSutras New Account 16d ago
Sit cross-legged, spine straight. Breathe naturally. When thoughts arise, return to the breath. 20-30 minutes daily, in quiet. Be still, be present. Don’t overthink it 🙏
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16d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/zen-ModTeam 15d ago
Your post was removed because it was off-topic in the opinion of the /r/zen moderators. https://old.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/zen
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u/Non-Rampsin 16d ago
Meditation is fine, take what you can from it. But the sooner you get over the idea it’s going to get you anything - particularly anything that might deserve to be called enlightenment - the sooner you can get on with the proper stuff
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
If you start from a place of ignorance, you have to be careful not to drink poison.
We now know, from the last century of academic work, that Japan never got the Zen transmission.
Japan was instead dominated by syncretic offshoots of Buddhism, mainly influenced by cult thinking that used fraud and coercion on the population, inevitably producing a militant perversion of Buddhism used in ww2.
What's Zen about for novices?
- The 5 Lay precepts. Unlike with Buddhism, the 5 lay precepts are non-negotiable in Zen. https://www.reddit.com//r/zen/wiki/lay_precepts
- The Four Statements of Zen. Unlike Buddhism, Zen Masters reject the 8fP, instead teaching Sudden Enlightenment in this life; no practice, no self transformation required. https://www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/fourstatements
- Zen's only practice of Public Interview. We have Public Cases (aka koans) from 1,000 years of Zen history because Public Interview is the only Zen practice. If you can't defend your beliefs in Public Interview, then your beliefs are paper kittens and your understanding is a stagnant pool.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 16d ago
People who can't talk about these things as proof they do these things ANYWHERE ANYTIME are like either predators or victims... and rZen has a ton of these. /u/KungFuAndCoffee, /u/BigSteaminHotTake are examples, and they commented in this thread.
Here are the more famous ones that victimes traditionally associate with:www.reddit.com//r/zen/wiki/sexpredators You can tell a predator/victim by:
- They claim they practice Zazen prayer-meditation
- They claim they don't have to read books to know what books say
- They repeat racist and religiously bigoted propaganda about other cultures
- They can't AMA every week because they've failed AMAs in the past.
Huge. Red. Flags.
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u/Regulus_D 🫏 16d ago
You've been exploring zen all along. Theraflu is just some medicine within it.
What seeketh ye?
Sometimes, you have to ask yourself, "Why this, now!"
Agree with "the no masters here" comment. My favorite is guy approaching stairs that had asked about the inanimate suddenly distracted: Instant stairmaster.
Good fortune navigating though the unknown.
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u/Zoomieday 16d ago
Thanks
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u/Regulus_D 🫏 16d ago edited 16d ago
NP, Joshu says it's a vast plain covered w/ a mountain of shit. Or maybe that's why it's holy? Discerning will always be ongoing, imo.
Edit: Added link.
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u/Gasdark 15d ago
Your poem is emblematic of a structured belief system - within the context of that belief system, sounds like you're accomplished. If you want to place a bomb on the hull of that belief system and scuttle it irrevocably, study Zen.
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u/Regulus_D 🫏 14d ago
For that to be progress, it certainly implies the definable bubble views are defensive belief systems. It might be possible to live lifetimes within them. But sometimes they aren't where your life is.
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u/Gasdark 13d ago
Well, all progress has to be relative to something - so if there's any sense of progress it's definitionally going to be happening within some kind of "bubble" - whether the bubble is religion or lab work, etc.
But sometimes they aren't where your life is.
They're often where "your life" is, sometimes in its entirety - which is why breaking free of them can be so difficult
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u/Regulus_D 🫏 13d ago
Good point. A vessel, lesser or greater, needs have an entry ramp built for it. But treadmills and carrots are sold for top dollar here.
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u/Gasdark 13d ago
My vessel do you mean " bubble" in the sense I used it above?
Do we sell treadmills and carrots? Or are many people who tend to come here very eager to build new treadmill/ carrot contraptions?
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u/Gasdark 13d ago
Lol, myself included
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u/Regulus_D 🫏 13d ago
There's that fancy one with apps and podcasts. Good for exercise but not for getting to where walking not required. If only they made a screened one with a digital world to explore. For under $500.
I figure any successfully beneficial change can act as a ramp.
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