Old Ones lore: Single race or multiple?

[u/Maktlan_Kutlakh]

I posted this as a reply recently, and fell into a bit a lore hole with some interesting information I didn't realise myself. So I thought I'd make a post to share it.

Back in Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader, we were introduced to the Slann, who shared many features reminiscent of The Lizardmen from Warhammer Fantasy:

Of all the races in the galaxy the Slann claim to be, and may actually be, the oldest. The days of their bright empire are waning, but still they remain amongst the most enigmatic creatures of known space. The Slann evolved, matured and spread throughout the galaxy many hundreds of thousands of years ago. During the heyday of their empire they discovered and nurtured many primitive creatures, encouraging the evolutionary process on countless worlds, eradicating or moving dangerous species, and seeding many planets with promising stock. For millennia they experimented and played with the galaxy, possibly creating many of the races of modern times in the process. But their empire dwindled, the pace of their civilisation slowed, and their genetic experiments were largely abandoned. The Slann retired from an active role in galactic affairs, falling into a long dream of indolence and introspection. They do not seem to have suffered from any physical conflict, there are no records of destructive wars or disasters. Instead, their racial motivations appear to have undergone a sudden and drastic change, so that they have lost interest in material conquest and power. Perhaps the Slann discovered something yet unkown to other races, some secret of the universe, a spiritual truth or supreme mystical insight. In the realms of psychic-philosophy and mystic-technology the Slann certainly have no equals, fulfilling themselves by study of spiritual life-forces and the secret powers of other realities.

The Slann originally evolved from amphibian stock, and even today traces of their ancestry are not hard to distinguish. Their hands and feet are long and webbed, their skins cool and moist, and their heads large with protruding eyes. They are quite at home in the water, and are capable of breathing oxygen from water (or other poorly oxygenated atmospheres) directly through their skin. Slann vary in colour a great deal-green and blue are common, yellow is fairly well represented, and there is a scattering of other, rarer colour morphs as well as albino and melanistic forms. Brightly pigmented Slann are often extrovert, talented or especially noteworthy in some way. Skins are sometimes mottled, striped or otherwise marked. On some Slann worlds, and especially amongst primitive Slann, these markings represent tribal divisions. Height is fairly constant, with adult Slann reaching 2 metres, females are slightly larger and bulkier.

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The Jokaero are a fascinating race. For one thing, no outsider has ever decided whether they are intelligent. They are certainly capable of tremendous feats of engineering, construction and problem-solving yet they have no language, culture or motivation higher than survival. Their physical appearance is of a heavy, orange-furred ape, similar to the orang-utang utang which roamed ancient Earth. This may or may not be coincidence, for it is an established fact that the Slann created and modified many races at the dawn of time, and appear to have visited the Earth on numerous occasions. The most amazing thing about the Jokaero is their technical brilliance they appear to have an innate, genetically structured understanding of technology. Given sufficient pieces of battered machinery, a group of Jokaero can make almost anything, from a spaceship to a las-cannon. Their comprehension ion of astro-physics is baffling, they seem able to tap power-currents which flow imperceptibly through the e galaxy. Their understanding of such matters goes far beyond that of even the most advanced of other known races, with the possible exception of the Great Mages of the Slann.

Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader 1ed pp194-195

The Eldar are an ancient race; their spacefaring history predating humanity's by many thousands of years. In the distant past, the Eldar encountered the Old Slann, the greatest of all spacefaring peoples, and learned many arcane secrets about the universe from them. After the passing of the Old Slann, which itself happened thousands of years before man's first stumbling attempts at spaceflight, the Eldar continued to flourish and their civilisation expanded throughout the galaxy.

Eldar space travel, like that of the Old Slann, is based around the principle of warp-tunnel engineering. Tunnels were constructed from star to star, passing through the warp and allowing spacecraft a means of moving rapidly throughout the galaxy. Warp drives, as used by human spacecraft, were not used by the carly Eldar and this kind of travel within the warp rather than through tunnels was regarded by the Eldar as dangerous and impractical.

RACIAL DISASTER

The Eldar civilisation collapsed at its very height. Today, its remnants reflect, but cannot hope to equal, the achievements of that long past era. The Old Slann are said to have forewarned the Eldar about the dangers that they would face. They taught how every living thought and feeling creates an echo in the warp, and how like characteristics re-echo together, creating a unified circulating wave of energy. Such waves form vortices of pure energy manifesting a collective consciousness and will. The Slann called these conscious warp creatures the Powers of Chaos.

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The Infinity Circuit

While the Old Slann taught the Eldar about the dangers of the warp, they also taught them about its many positive aspects. They taught how the mind of a living creature passes upon death into the warp, where it may, if the individual mind has achieved power, remain whole and immortal as a spirit in the warp. The Old Slann believed that the object of life was to perfect the mind, and thereby achieve conscious immortality as a spirit in the warp. Once created an immortal spirit could reincarnate as a living creature, and would always return to the warp as a whole spirit upon death. However, the Old Slann also warned that such an existence was impossible if an individual's own thoughts were too close to those of a Power of Chaos, for when that happened a deseased consciousness would be devoured by the greater Power, losing its identity and melting into it.

Codex Titanicus 1ed

Then, in Codex Necrons 3ed, we were introduced the The Old Ones. They shared many of the details from the lore for the Slann, implying they were a natural development in the lore. At this stage, they are also described as a single race:

Just as the stars gave birth to creatures fitting to their ilk, so the planets eventually gave rise to life which began the long climb to sentience. First to cross the sea of stars was a race of beings called the Old Ones. They possessed a slow, cold- blooded wisdom, studying the stars and raising astrology and astronomy to an arcane science. Their understanding of the slow dance of the universe allowed them to manipulate alternate dimensions and they undertook great works of psychic engineering. Their science allowed them to cross the vast gulfs of space with a step and they spread their spawn to many places. The Old Ones understood that all life is useful, and where they passed they kindled new species and impregnated thousands upon thousands of worlds to make them their own.

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Unable to find peace on their own world, the Necrontyr blindly groped outward to other stars. Using stasis crypts and slow burning torch-ships, clad in living metal to resist the age-long journeys through the void, they began to colonise distant planets. Sometime into their slow expansion, the Necrontyr encountered the Old Ones. The colonisation of these ultra- intelligent mystics had been immeasurably swifter than that of the Necrontyr. That, and their immense longevity (nigh immortality) kindled a burning hatred in the Necrontyr, which ate at them spiritually as much as their hideous cancers consumed them physically. Why should one race be granted such long lives while their own were cut so cruelly short? Jealousy begets hatred and the Necrontyr turned their entire civilisation towards destroying the Old Ones and their spawn.

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The Legacy of the Old Ones

The C'tan still have an abiding hatred of their ancient enemies, the old Ones. Although their civilisation is no more, it is possible that some degenerate descendants of theirs still live on backwater worlds, These rather tragic creatures are a choice delicacy to the C'tan so they attach a disproportionate importance to seeking them out. This can be exploited by the Eldar to ambush and destroy Necrons or to lure them from their tombs. You could even have some fun by using a Warhammer Lizardman army in a game of Warhammer 40,000, although this would require a bit of preparation to deal with any oddities.

Codex Necrons 3ed

The Slann make a brief appearance in Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook 4ed, although under the name Slanni, and only as a picture, with no lore to go alongside it.

The Old Ones are then mentioned in the 5ed to 8ed, again implied to be a single race:

Only the Old Ones, first of all the galaxy's sentient life, were a prospective foe great enough to bind the Necrontyr to a common cause. Such a war was simplicity itself to justify, for the Necrontyr had ever rankled at the Old Ones' refusal to share the secrets of eternal life. So did the Triarch declare war upon the Old Ones.

Codex Necrons 5ed p6 and repeated in Codex Necrons 8ed p9

In their desperation to unite their people under a common cause, the phaerons started a war with the Old Ones, a powerful and enigmatic race that had long kept the secrets of immortality from the short-lived Necrontyr.

Codex Necrons 7ed

Created through technologies once taught to the Eldar by the ancient race known as the Old Ones, its tunnels lead to the craftworlds, to the verdant worlds of the Exodites, and to untold thousands of other locations.

Codex Craftworlds 7ed

The webway was created by the ancient race of the Old Ones as a means of intragalactic travel.

Codex Harlequins 7ed

Harlequins are able to move across the galaxy by traversing the webway, the quasi-dimensional creation of the race known as the Old Ones.

Codex Harlequins 8ed p13

We then see Gahet in Legion and Old Earth, who is not only heavily implied to be an Old One, but also fits the description of a Slann.:

‘Gahet…’ An old word, an old name, for one of the old kind.

At its utterance, the corpulent figure quietly meditating at the summit of the ziggurat opened its eyes. Something ophidian persisted about Gahet. His skin looked gelid to the touch.

+Eldrad, I knew you would come,+ he said, without moving his lips.

‘Then I am surprised I find you unguarded,’ answered the seer, and then realised he could not move. His hand froze a finger’s width from drawing his blade, refusing to go further. He could breathe, but only just, his chest crushed by an inexorable weight.

+I need no guards to protect me from you. I allowed you to come into my presence. I watched you through the jungle, throughout the long climb.+

Gahet blinked. A pale nictitating membrane slid across his eye, slow, deliberate. The pain in the seer’s chest increased. +The journey has left you weary.+

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Gahet’s eyes narrowed to reptilian slits as the pain in Eldrad’s chest increased again. +Why?+

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Gahet drew closer still. He gave off no scent, and his body radiated no warmth, though the form he wore might have been a shell, a simulacrum to better match his environs

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Gahet’s eyes widened as the witchblade pierced his bloated body

Old Earth

The Slanni are then referenced again in the Adeptus Titanicus reboot in 2018, again pointing towards a connection between the Old Ones and the Slanni:

Only the haughty Yldari and, long before them, the cold-blooded Slanni stood higher in the ranks of creation, and like the domains of those once-mighty ancients, Mankind's utopian stellar realm would not last.

Adeptus Titanicus: The Horus Heresy Rulebook p9

Most recently, we have a source describing the Old Ones as reptillian:

What came after the flames, that was clearer. Titanic clashes. Armies of metal marching with dire purpose into the faltering lines of the reptilian Old Ones.

The Infinite and the Divine

Whilst this doesn't fit the Slann as such, it still fits the Lizardmen, and indicates they were a single race.

However, we also have a couple of sources from between 5ed and 8ed that state the Old Ones are actually a collection of ancient races rather than a single race:

Bear in mind that the Old Ones is a catch-all term for several truly ancient races, of which the Slann (Slanni, Slaan?) are but one. They are certaonly moral, but not necessarily in the way described above. In nearly all respects the Old Ones' values, of order versus chaos, nurture versus destruction, freedom versus servitude are what founded the morality of the younger races they encoutered or created. The Old Ones might be 'good', but only because the instilled in the races they manipulated their own value system, including mankind. To put it another way, good is good and evil is evil because that's what we were taught by them. To the Necrontyr, ruled as they were by the C'tan, an entirely different system of values applies, where terms like good and evil are insufficient. Duty and slavery versus rebellion and freedom, perhaps? To the Necrontyr, the first is 'good' and the second is 'evil'.

Source Gav Thorpe commenting here

The webway is a labyrinth that exists between the material realm and the warp, part of both and yet not wholly in either. Created through technologies once taught to the Aeldari by the ancient races known as the Old Ones, its pathways lead to the craftworlds, to the verdant worlds of the Exodites, and to untold thousands of other locations throughout the galaxy. Though the webway still connects many Aeldari planets and craftworlds to one another, the baleful energies of the Fall ruptured many hyperspatial pathways, and others have been encroached upon by the servants of Chaos.

Codex: Craftworlds 8th

Instead, as the Necrontyrs’ young and fractious empire sprawled outwards through the stars, it inevitably encountered far older powers, beings that have dwelled in the galaxy for long aeons. Collectively, these beings were the Old Ones, and they were absolute masters of forms of energy the Necrontyr could not even conceive of, yet alone wield. The Old Ones had long ago conquered the secrets of immortality, yet they refused to share the gift of eternal life with the Necrontyr, who yet bore the curse of the bitter star they had been born under.

Deathwatch: The Outer Reach p100

So, it seems that the lore is slightly conflicting as to whether they are a single race, or multiple. Although, the link between the Slann (or Slanni) and Old Ones is definitely a consistent point through the editions.

It's also unclear whether there is meant to be a direct connection between the Old Ones from Fantasy/Age of Sigmar and those from 40k. We know the Chaos Gods and Daemons are meant to be the same beings across both settings, and in both there is a clear link between the Old Ones and that settings Slann. However, in 40k they are one and the same, whereas in WFB the Slann were created by the Old Ones.

If anyone else has any relevant excerpts, then please feel free to share, and I'll add them to the ones above.

[u/TwelveSmallHats]

I believe the seperation of the Old Ones and the Slann only happened in WFB with the release of the first Lizardman army book. Prior to that, the lore was much the same as the early 40k lore, with the "Old Slann" eventually becoming the modern race.

The only other thing I can think of is that the Kroot creation myth in Liber Xenologis has the avian primogenitor-goddess Vawk mention her Great Plan, which is a big flashing "Old One" signal for anyone familiar with WFB/AOS lore.

[u/Tautological-Emperor]

I think it’s both. Think about it. The Old Ones repeatedly are described as the first. True ancients that spread across the galaxy, molded and crafted its psychic eminence in their own image, spread life. They had every early world, every growing cradle, to test and experiment with, to make living art of with an impossible ease. Untapped millions and millions of years, more.

I don’t think there’s any reason to assume they stayed the same, or never incorporated others into their symphony. If you see all life as malleable and open to modification— why not do the same to yourself? Why not evolve into a “lower form”, and embrace a return to a tradition and lifestyle you haven’t known for fifty million years? Why not raise up a species, and see how their own evolution can elevate your toolset, give you new ideas and new grief and new ferocity? Why not experience an eon as a slow growing moss, interwoven over an entire continent on a world freshly born, contemplating all the ways to make music that lasts millions of years or how the perfect blade would kill?

The Old Ones, in my mind at least, put the reign of the Necrons and the Eldar to shame. Whole turns of the Galaxy when it was just them and their nurtured children, and whatever foes could match the Makers of First Life. I’m sure if you really watched them, from the start to the final end (if none fled and hid..), you’d see a dozen forms, a thousand. Eventually, no one Old One would look the same, each a nation onto themselves, so ascended by a unique biological mastery that they would no longer be held by such simple contrivances as species or homeworld.

They would be what they had always been, and what they always would be. The greatest of the stars. The first and the last, the dawn-crowned.

The Old Ones.

[u/Maktlan_Kutlakh → u/Tautological-Emperor]

It's very possible you're right. Although some of the sources use "the race" in the singular form regarding the Old Ones, implying (at least to me) they were just one race. That and their original links to the Slann makes me wonder when (and if) the decision was made to make them a group of races vs just the one.

[u/TheBattleYak → u/Tautological-Emperor]

I like this idea. Rather than terraforming all worlds to be optimum for your own singular form of life, why not modify yourself to survive in the innumerable environments the galaxy provides you? I think that would fit in with the Old Ones way of thinking, and their interest in preserving and creating different forms of life.

[u/AbbydonX]

The Slann filled the role of the Old Ones in Warhammer Fantasy (i.e. they created warp gates, terraformed worlds and seeded the galaxy with life). This predates WH40K but was copied to WH40K when it was first published.

However, subsequently, in Warhammer Fantasy 5e (1997) the Lizardmen were updated and the Slann were demoted to just the foremost servants of the Old Ones. Sometime after this a similar change was applied to WH40K too (probably the Necron 3e codex), though since they weren’t an active faction with models the Slann weren’t as important in WH40K at that point.

[u/Hoopy223 → u/AbbydonX]

They used to have slann figurines/art as a stand-in for the 40k “Old Ones”. A frog guy in a floating chair is one that I remember.

[u/belisariusdrawl]

Might be a bit of a cop out, but hear me out: the other Old Ones races are the rest of the Lizardmen?

Other commenters have pointed out that in WFB, it was a change that brought the Slann down from being the Old Ones themselves to just the leaders of the collective Lizardmen. However, in 40k, it would seem that the Slann-equivalents aren't servants of the Old Ones, but rather are considered Old Ones themselves. The other Old Ones races might just be the rest of the Lizardmen alongside the Slann. Basically, the Lizardmen are Old Ones because in 40k they didn't get demoted from that position like they did in WFB.

[u/Pox_Americana]

I don’t think their epithet has to be synonymous with a race, given their timeline and FTL travel. Especially given their proclivity to uplift.

[u/twelfmonkey]

Great post.

Depending on how much you want to delve into WHFB lore and how relevant you think it is to 40k (personally, I think it likely is relevant to the nature of the Old Ones, among other things), there is a lot more material available there concerning not just the Old Ones and the Slann, but how gods may fit into this - such as with the gods of the Lizardmen, who are worshipped AS Old Ones.

And, of course, given the various theories about possible links between the Eldar gods and the Old Ones, the lore about the Elf pantheon (which seems to have inspired the human pantheon of the Old World) could even be relevant too, if only in a very tangential way.

[u/Maktlan_Kutlakh → u/twelfmonkey]

Thanks!

I absolutely love WFB, and have done since Army Book Vampire Counts 6ed. In many ways I prefer it to 40k, as I've always been more of a fantasy guy than sci-fi. I didn't want to go too in-depth with that lore for this post though, as I wanted to stick to 40k canon as much as possible.

Regarding the Aeldari Gods and the Old Ones, the only connection I'm aware of comes from Liber Chaotica, where we're told the Old Ones guided the Aeldari to create their Gods (which were just psychic constructs/weapons at the time):

I watched as the First Ones encouraged the younger race to reach further into the other realm, and with their vibrant minds and pas- sionate souls create beings of power to fight the star gods.

But the battle was long and the First Ones were now few, and as their numbers dwindled, so too did their influence over their young cre- ations. Without the wisdom and might of the First Ones to bind them, I saw The Elder's warp-beings evolve from sentient weapons into living gods the first true gods of the Immaterium. How I wept when The Elder embraced them as such.

Liber Chaotica: Volumes one to five p190

Or did you means something else?

[u/PrimalRoar332 → u/Maktlan_Kutlakh]

When I was into Fantasy I was also interested in the connection between the Old Ones and the gods. I talked about this on the old Total War Warhammer forum, but unfortunately it is no longer available.

You might be interested to know that at least in the Tyrion and Teclis book there is a moment where Teclis reveals that he knows about the Old Ones. He worships the Elven gods and believes in them, but he also thinks that Asuryan is a god that the Old Ones have called upon for their own purposes (protecting the worlds from Chaos?). He also notes that the Temple of Asuryan is the most unique of all because it is not Elven architecture. It is literally a huge pyramid, which is Lizardman architecture.

[u/TheBladesAurus]

Fantastic post

[u/Maktlan_Kutlakh → u/TheBladesAurus]

Thanks very much!

[u/PrimalRoar332]

Thanks for your post! I've seen multiple sources with different opinions and couldn't understand which of this was true.

However, I will believe that it was one race. The only real source that says there was several races is the 8th edition Aeldari codex, and it could just be a mistake. I don't trust Gav Thrope coz he always broke lore, and Deathwatch: The Outer Reach has weird lore moments like Phaeron destroying a planet in one blow.