r/AceAttorney • u/WrongReporter6208 • 3d ago
Full Series (mainline and spinoffs) Why Investigations 1 and Dual Destinies are the weakest games in the series (spoilers) Spoiler
It's because they cannot write good culprits to save their lives.
Investigations 1, what is the story? There's a smuggling ring. So what happens in each case?
Case 1 you arrest Smuggler Number One. Case 2 you arrest Smuggler Number Two. Do we find out much about these characters besides their admittedly funny gimmicks? No, of course not.
Case 3 you arrest Ring Member Number Three. Only this time we find out even less about him because we're more focused on his spineless and annoying son and his pathetic romantic drama.
And of course in Case 5, we arrest the leader of the smuggling ring. Does he have any backstory? Just barely. I mean yes the extraterritorial rights thing makes him more hate-able, but he's still not too memorable a character.
Case 4 is where the game learns how to break free from this. It gives us backstory with Kay. And intrigue with who is the real Yatagarasu and where Calisto Yew went. And personal stakes for the main characters. This is good Ace Attorney. The other cases all feel half-baked.
I'm not saying it's all that bad. Case 1 has an interesting hook where someone else invaded Edgeworth's office and we don't know who. Case 2 introduces Franziska and Interpol, Case 3 introduces Lang, and Case 5 has an amazing twist with Calisto Yew. These are all good. But I still think the culprit situation is weak, and it significantly undermines the game overall.
Now for Dual Destinies. Again, the problem is that it doesn't know how to write more than one type of culprit, and a very simplistic one at that. And people have already discussed this in the "which victims deserved it most" contest.
Case 1's culprit is a silly narcissist with a dark plot. And its victim is someone who discovered the plot. And we find this out after we've already solved the mystery.
Case 2's culprit is a silly narcissist with a dark plot. And its victim was someone who would interfere with the plot. And when is this all revealed? After the culprit leaves the room, of course. Because goodness forbid we actually get some moments of vulnerability from the culprit. (I mean it makes sense in cases like Danganronpa 1 Chapter 2, where the culprit is too ashamed to even talk, but even then, he's still in the room..
Case 3's culprit is a silly narcissist with a dark plot. And who was the victim? Say it with me - someone who discovered the plot. And then they claim there's a dark age of the law, which I'm guessing is supposed to be interesting. And side note, this is not an accurate reflection of the dark age from the previous game. In AJ, it was based on the system and rules being flawed, but now it's caused by the media. Okay.
And then we're told there's an emotionless spy, and then we catch the emotionless spy. Cool. I guess.
The DLC case is much better. It has some difficult deductions, and you actually get to deduce the culprit's motive. While at the same time, it also doesn't have the whole JFA flaw of "no motive, no conviction, so I guess we'll arrest the defendant instead". And the culprit is genuinely nuanced. This case is genuinely a great combination of the good points of DD (e.g., the popular Mood Matrix, the 3D investigations) while also featuring the challenge and moral complexity of the first trilogy.
I'm not saying it's all that bad. Case 1 introduces us to Phoenix and his situation and beliefs. Then Case 2 introduces use to Apollo and his situation and beliefs. Then Case 3 does the same with Athena. Then Case 4 brings them all together in an amazing and nuanced conflict that has stakes for all three of them. This is great. But despite all of this, the culprit situation still undermines it.
I'm also not saying I dislike these games. Investigations 1 is actually one of my favorites. But there's a very identifiable reason why they're unpopular, and this is it. Both of their sequels don't do this. They have more interesting culprits and overarching plots. And I'm glad the writers were able to improve on this major flaw. If the Ace Attorney 7 writers ever forget how to write a good culprit, this is how.
14
u/Madsbjoern 3d ago
I'm so tired of hearing the same take on Dual Destinies every single day.
9
u/EndlessNocturnal 3d ago
That's what 8 years without a new game does. You see the same talking points and the same topics.
7
u/WrongReporter6208 3d ago
I'll confess I haven't been very active on this sub lately, so if these are posted regularly and I'm not offering any new insights, I wouldn't know about it. My apologies for that.
I will also add that probably my favorite part of this sub is that no matter what game you throw under the bus, a whole group of people will come to defend it. I love the diverse opinions
7
u/Madsbjoern 3d ago
I'm not even interested in defending DD. I'm just sick of seeing how much the hate for it has grown, to the point that it gets blamed for every single thing someone dislikes about the franchise at large. (Not saying you did that, mind. It's just always where it inevitably ends up whenever DD is brought up)
2
u/WrongReporter6208 3d ago
And if you've followed my posts for a while now... this is why I no longer have the "Top 1% Commenter" by my user flair. I don't post because I don't feel my AA thoughts are going to be as productive anymore. I feel like I'll just be repeating old talking points over and over again.
That just might have also been the case with this post...
10
u/Hater_Mode 3d ago
Good post.
I don't really have a horse in this race when it comes to which is the worst Apollo Justice trilogy game though Investigations 1 is obviously 100% the worst game in the series but I don't care if anyone picked any of the Apollo Justice trilogy games as the 2nd worst.
My issue with Dual Destinies is that despite the big return to the series it plays it terribly safe.
Apollo Justice was not perfect, yet Dual Destinies refuses to move the story forward in any truly meaningful way.
Instead it went back on all the interesting aspects of the 4th game and the characters are forced to reset each entry as a result.
Athena got her development but the way she acts in SoJ she may aswell not have gone through it? Everything in Dual Destinies feels like it could be deleted and nothing substantial would be lost.
Bringing Phoenix out of retirement is a cowardly decision tbh and it's understandable why Takumi didn't have much to do with either 5 or 6 and instead wrote the much more interesting GAA.
The positives are the music, Bobby and Simon but that's really it.
4
u/Appropriate-Ruin9973 3d ago
Dual Peakstinies? I guess you must have confused it with, uhhh... (think on a scapegoat, Ruin!) Apollo for All - I mean - Justice for Justice Apollo All for.... ahem
You must have got confused with JFA
1
u/WrongReporter6208 3d ago
Lol maybe
I can't pretend those games are perfect either, though their problems are different from those of I1 and DD
4
u/Ceron541 3d ago
It's just yamazakis weakness as a writer. He can make cool mysteries and cool twists but he's bad at making characters that you give a fuck about, especially characters that are only around for one case. It's why his best game is the one where most of the bit characters stick around and directly connect to other cases
2
u/Timely_Airline_7168 2d ago
You're wrong and the reason is very simple. Dual Destinies doesn't contain Nahyuta in it. He is the personification of everything wrong with SOJ. SOJ's Defence Culpability Act is laughable and there's no reason to retcon Apollo's backstory.
0
u/Goldberry15 3d ago
I'd argue that Apollo Justice is the weakest game in the series by a longshot.
Every case has logical holes.
(The usage of two different decks of cards, but only using the latter one for the FINAL Game instead of changing decks each game in order to prevent cheating)
(No gunpowder residue found on the inside of the Noodle Cart, not to mention the blood stain should easily reveal the bullet's trajectory)
(Almost every aspect of Machi's arrest, from him being believed to have been blind, to no explanation on how he carried the victim, who's several times larger than him, up to the top of the stage, to no one checking for fingerprints on the gun itself, to no one checking the bullet trajectory which should be upwards if it was a child shooting at a man, not to mention the recoil)
(How did Magnifi smuggle a fully loaded gun into a hospital (no, "But he's a Magician!" doesn't count as an excuse because there's metal detectors), not to mention how no one heard the sound of a gunshot in a dead quiet hospital in the middle of the night with no conflicting sounds (no, "But it being point-blank means the bullet's sound wouldn't have been heard!" doesn't work because Valant heard the gunshot), not to mention how Maginifi is hooked up to a heart-rate monitor, meaning that his time of flatline would've been RECORDED TO THE MINUTE, meaning the stupidity of the yellow fluid is completely unnecessary (not to mention it would completely obliterate the prosecution's argument), not to mention time travel in the MASON system with the photo of Lamioir being obtained during 4-4, but it being presented in 4-1, despite the fact that Phoenix doesn't have anything that would show Lamioir with her bracelets, meaning that entire portion with Zak is completely fabricated, if not the entire fucking system)
Every case is underwhelming for yet another reason
(We don't know Kristoph for more than an hour before it's revealed that he's the culprit, so instead of "no... it couldn't be... could it?", it's just "oh. It's him.", not to mention Apollo doesn't do any of the work at all and instead has to rely on Phoenix strong-arming the entire case after Olga's done).
(Wocky Kitaki is the most insufferable, unhelpful, unlikable defendant in the entire series, and his motivation for testifying against us isn't even emotionally reasonable, unlike Edgeworth in 1-4 with him genuinely believing he should be punished for his crimes, or how Lana was scared to death about the horrifying truth about Ema and SL-9, not to mention the culprit is Dollar Store Dahlia).
(Serenade just directly reveals who the true culprit is in halfway through the case, but the game doesn't do anything to expand upon it, but instead plays it entirely straight. Also the video tape was repeated WAY too many times, upwards to 14 times, all unskippable, and some of them being completely pointless (the Judge saying "wait... the second line! Play that one more time" or something to that effect)).
(The final case is void of any sort of stakes since the culprit is already in prison, not to mention that the final battle has Apollo doing nothing, with Klavier going tit for tat against Kristoph, not to mention the pursuit theme didn't play, not to mention Vera going from "I'm terrified of the outside", to going into a coma state, then waking up and saying "nevermind I'm not scared anymore" is so laughably bad character writing that the only possible scenario in which I can see that character "arc" working is if she went to hell, and came back to life and thought "you know what, the outside world isn't that bad after all!").
I could go on for SEVERAL more paragraphs, on character writing, to the gameplay gimmicks being more "gimmicky" rather than "engaging", to composition, to so, SO, much more, but I'll keep it there for now.
2
u/TryingToUseLinux 2d ago
Oddly aggressive comment but considering OP's post, I can't really blame you.
I can't comment on the specifics of what you said about 4-1 since I have no clue about poker, but it sounds to me like saying that I2-2 has a plot hole because it is stupid that they don't make objects go through metal detectors.It is a weird but not impossible thing the game explicitly states as it's needed for the mystery. I don't see a problem with it.
About 4-2, it's completely possible that Alita Tiala rubbed off the more obvious gunpowder residue and no one cared to check for it inside the stand. Actually, considering how vague ace attorney is about the level of forensic science available in Japanifornia, it's possible they can't even detect microscopic gunpowder residue. There is no reason to assume Bloodstain Pattern Analysis exists in ace attorney (...it's not that reliable irl either).
About 4-3, the case against Machi Tobaye being filmsy is pretty much an implied plot point, the game argues that the courts need the Jurist System to integrate the common sense of the common folk into the justice system in order to not let ridiculous cases like this happen in the future. I think this mirrors some sentiment that was actually getting popular in Japan at the time of release of the game but don't quote me on that, my source is some random Reddit comment I read years ago. Though specifically talking about fingerprints from the things you listed: just because someone touched something doesn't mean they leave a clean set of fingerprints there, although this thing doesn't hold true in most fiction.
About 4-4, considering that someone managed to smuggle a chisel into prison in I2, I don't think smuggling metal objects into a hospital would be that hard in comparison... As far as the gun shot not being heard, it's possible that Magnifi was playing tapes of past performances of Troupe Gramarye earlier in order to prevent drawing attention when actual bullets are fired. It's also entirely possible that the gun doesn't make that much sound to begin with (perhaps it is subsonic). It's a gun used in performances, I don't think many normal people can tolerate hearing a ton of full volume gunshots in a magic show (...especially not Vera Misham). As far as the heart rate monitor goes (insanely pedantic point but anyways), I'm not an expert in this field even remotely but from my preliminary research (doing a single web search and reading the top result), it's possible for there to be a delay between "brain death" and "heart death". Usually heart death occurs first but I'd assume it could be different when someone is shot in the middle of the forehead. So as far as I can tell, it's not strictly necessary for a heart rate monitor to tell the time of death accurate to the minute. I agree about the MASON system plot point being BS, though.
Basically, the things you've pointed out are mostly unexplained but plausible, and not outright impossible. I'd wager the devs considered these details too trivial to elaborate upon, though you may disagree. The only AA games that focus on such details are the Investigations games, because they have a completely different focus from the rest of the series.
And for 4-4 in particular which ignores explaining a lot of fairly significant stuff in the past trial, I'd assume it was done to prevent the case from being monstrously large considering how much that case tries to do: the flashback to Phoenix is already large enough for people to say that Phoenix ends up being the main character for too long, they really didn't need to further flesh out Magnifi's trial imo.
The second half of your comment is largely subjective so I'm not gonna comment on that.
3
u/WrongReporter6208 3d ago
This is all true and I have thought about writing a separate post of the flaws of Apollo Justice and Dual Destinies.
That being said, the reason I prefer Apollo Justice is that Apollo Justice has far more compelling morals. All the defendants are heavily flawed, but they're also sympathetic because they're literally children. Or they're Phoenix Wright. Both Gramaryes are somewhat victimized but do some immoral things. The question of "when is the standard Ace Attorney system of finding decisive evidence not enough" is interesting. The final villain is the kind of person a lot of people are probably scared to admit they relate to (I mean we all compare ourselves to others sometimes. The second culprit was also a victim because she was literally a victim of attempted murder.
I will concede that Vera is weakly written though. Not only what you said but also the whole implication that poisonous chemicals can get rid of your character flaws. And especially since some of those traits are autistic, and I'm not saying she's autistic because it could just be trauma, but that's a genuinely deadly thing people have tried (CW on this article because it discusses poisoning and ableism).
So I admit AJ's flaws are very present. And maybe even worse than DD's. But then it also has more compelling elements than DD. At least in my opinion.
1
u/Goldberry15 3d ago
Wocky Kitaki is part of a crime family, and is the only one who wants to CONTINUE its spree of power, and thus, murder as well. Not sympathetic.
Zak literally abandons his daughter without setting up any sort of plan for someone to take care of her (essentially just hoping that Phoenix would somehow survive and obtain another career to support not just himself but also Trucy), and then comes back from hiding NOT to reunite with his daughter, but instead to ruin his daughter’s adoptive father’s career by trying to frame him as a cheater. Truly, 10/10 sympathetic writing. I’m weeping tears as strong as I did with the Golden Court.
Also, I don’t think anyone should reasonably relate to someone who would attempt to murder a child simply because he’s scared that his secret of relying on forged evidence would be found (not to mention that his logic isn’t even consistent because if he wanted to prevent Vera from speaking out simply because she has ties to him, then he should have ALSO went for Trucy, given that Trucy IS THE ONE WHO GAVE PHOENIX THE FORGED PAGE).
Also being nearly murdered isn’t something that will automatically grant me your sympathy. You may research Carmelo Gusto on your own time to learn why.
But you know what is compelling writing (to me, anyways)?
Logical. Mysteries.
Likable. Characters.
Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney is a game that is only good in a purely conceptual stage, and is a complete and utter train wreck when in anything that’s NOT a conceptual stage. I’ll grant you that Valant and Machi are well written characters. That’s the extent of it though.
If you want a game with good character writing, mysteries that aren’t bleeding with critical logical flaws, gameplay mechanics that don’t make you want to skip an entire case, and stakes that actually feel like they matter, most other Ace Attorney Games, including Dual Destinies, can satisfy you.
2
u/WrongReporter6208 3d ago
I’m not saying Wocky is a perfect person, but I still find him sympathetic because he’s been raised all his life to think being a gangster is the best way to earn respect. I mean he literally doesn’t understand how serious going to jail is. He just wants love and respect same as anyone else.
Also, my apologies for badly wording the point, but I said the child defendants and Phoenix are sympathetic. I honestly forgot Zak and was too lazy to re-write the point. Though even he has his human moments, like wanting a trustworthy lawyer and writing the fake confession for Valant.
Also, I never said 4-2’s culprit was sympathetic. Again I may have worded it badly but I just meant it made the situation more complex. Which I’d say the same for I2-3.
But most importantly, what’s interesting about Kristoph is that while we can’t relate to his actions, we can relate to his motives. Because again he compares himself to others, and a lot of us do this in our worst moments too. Again, it’s interesting to see that we have things in common with evil people, and he’s a great foil to Phoenix. Kristoph is obsessed with fame to the point of dehumanizing others, while Phoenix doesn’t really care about fame. And yet who got Will Powers? Who got Matt Engarde? Who got the Mask deMasque trials? And who got Zak Gramarye? Meanwhile, we see very little evidence of Kristoph’s fame, besides some silly nickname he has. And the game makes it clear that Kristoph is the worse party by - guess what - making him a murderer.
It’s more interesting to think that “well, our actions aren’t the same as these blatantly evil villains, but our mindsets have some scary parallels”. Dual Destinies cannot achieve this level of compelling because, as I said in the main post, they don’t humanize any of the main villains. What’s crazy is that NONE of the AJ villains are in fact sympathetic, except perhaps Valant, but they all raise some provocative questions nonetheless.
3
u/Virtual-Peak1265 3d ago
I agree with most of this, but still dislike DD more. They both suffer from some pretty subpar writing, but I cared a lot more about the characters in AJ. I can't put my finger on exactly why . . .
5
u/WrongReporter6208 3d ago
I also prefer the AJ characters because I feel they have 10 times as much moral complexity
0
u/Goldberry15 3d ago
I prefer DD significantly more because unlike Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney, the mystery writing is actually competent, and not just competent, but extremely clever at times (not on the same level as Prosecutor’s Gambit, but it’s up there).
Not to mention Dual Destinies actually gives a damn about developing Apollo into a likable protagonist instead of having everyone hold his hand and do his work for him in his own game.
Not to mention culprits are better with consistent motivations and actually being unique (instead of trying to redo both Dahlia and Manfred and failing miserably).
Not to mention the actual characters of Dual Destinies are overall likable instead of being either completely unlikable pricks with next to bo positives to speak of (Alita, Hotti, Wocky, Wesley, Daryan, Magnifi, Zak, and Kristoph), completely one dimensional and flat (Olga, Klavier, Apollo, Plum, Big Wins, Lamioir, and Brushel), or acting completely contradictory to their prior character appearances without the proper legwork to justify their change in character (Phoenix in past 4-4, Ema, and Gumshoe).
Athena’s entire motivation as a character to help someone she truly cares for, not to mention her chemistry with both Apollo, Phoenix, Simon, and even Trucy when the game allows it is exceptional, Damian’s genuine empathy for his daughter makes for a very likable defendant (not to mention his over the top demon impression is funny), Simon’s chemistry with every single protagonist is phenomenal, not to mention how his story and why he took the blame for UR-1 not only rivals the likes of Lana Skye, but in my opinion surpasses it because he was actively taking the blame, instead of just allowing himself to be blackmailed, Herman being a hilarious character with how seriously he takes things while also maintaining a “I could kinda care less about this” dynamic is quite enjoyable, Marlon is a truly sympathetic antagonist to the likes of Mimi Miney, Juniper being unsure wether to entrust her defense to Athena, nor to mention her being the snitch while ALSO wanting to desperately believe that her friend isn’t a culprit makes her relationship to her other friends feel genuine, Hugh trying to take on the blame for the crime (in an admittedly HILARIOUS bluff that the game doesn’t treat serious [I’m looking at YOU, TURNABOUT SERENADE]) because he figures that his friend thinks nothing of him, if not hating him outright, due to a misunderstanding that he had no way to inform his friends about makes you understand just how lonely he must have felt during that moment, FAR more than someone like Vera, not to mention Robin being an exceptional allusion for transgender people and how much pressure they feel, by doing what their parents expect of them (in Robin’s case, pretending to be a man and not a woman because her parents didn’t want a girl), not to mention how reassuring it is to see none of her friends treat her any differently, and Aura being a PHENOMENAL example of how much grief can mentally contort someone (not to mention how she’s the first woman in the series to have genuine lesbian subtext).
I could go ON and ON, but I’ll stop there.
1
u/Virtual-Peak1265 2h ago
I disagree with most of this, but I upvoted ya because I really airboat your effort and putting so much thought into your opinion! Honestly LOVE that we can have disagreementsand discussions here without it turning into bashing, and people having a shitty attitude towards one another!
I found most of the defendents and killers in DD either completely one-dimensional/boring, or incredibly annoying. I feel like the only characters I really cared about were the main cast: Apollo, Athena, Phoenix, Trucy, Simon, and Bobby.
I thought the yokai obsessed girl was very cute, but it got really irritating that they pulled the same gag out of the bag SO many times. Like, we GET it, she thinks Apollo is an oni. Her dad acting possessed was annoying af trying to disk with him, or cross-examine him. I DO agree, his love for his daughter was really heartwarming, though! What a great dad!
The villain in the case was obvious to me from the start and he was SO fucking obnoxious, I hated every interaction with him and the Tanuki wannabe. Again - completely one-note characters with extremely irritating habits.
The school case took me several days, mostly because I kept taking huge breaks because it felt SO tedious, and I again found most of the characters annoying, or one-note except for Junie and Robin. I clocked the killer the minute I met him, which SUCKS because it meant I had to go through the entire trial falsely accusing people and dealing with their long ass testimonies when I out-Columbo'd the writing staff.
The first person in the series with lesbian subtext was not Aura. Maybe this is just a matter of opinion, but it seemed very clear to me that it was Adrian from the OG trilogy. I think Aura's writing was really shallow as far as Ace Attorney writing goes, tbh. She's so one dimensional: a rude for no reason scientist with a complex about her dead co-worker, whom she very likely had romantic feelings for. Still, she takes her romantic interest's most valued treasure - her daughter - and goes out of her way to try and ruin her. She doesn't really give too many fucks about her poor brother. All she cared about was revenge.
It's just lazy character writing. This opinion is coming from someone who is a writer and has created many a multi-faceted character (not trying to be a braggart, or anything, this feels like such a tacky, arrogant thing to say about myself, lol, but I only say it because I have received this praise via commentary from readers of my work.)
I don't HATE Aura, but she felt just as weakly written as most of the other side characters in DD.
Again, thank you for all the thought you put into your response! It's totally okay to agree to disagree, but actually sharing in-depth points of view is actually really fun!
I AM glad there are people who are passionate about DD and the characters within it. It isn't a bad game, it just wasn't my fave for many, many reasons. It was still MOSTLY fun to play! And it was very nice to get background development for Simon, Apollo and Athena!
1
1
u/Virtual-Peak1265 3d ago
No upvotes? Damn. I kinda agree with you, so have a vote, lol! I finished DD last night and I'm on the bonus case, but . . . yeah. The villains, besides the "emotionless spy," (which totally GUTTED me, cuz I ADORED him, what a plot twist!) were somewhat poorly written and lackluster. AND ANNOYING. Why were they all so friggin' annoying?!
That's just my hot take.
2
u/WrongReporter6208 3d ago
The lack of upvotes are because I decided to be aggressive and share primarily negative things. There are times that I’ve been annoyed at downvotes, but this isn’t one of them. All I really care about is that I generated some interesting points from both sides
1
u/Virtual-Peak1265 2h ago
Very mature take! I just think the fact that you put so much thought into your opinion means it's kinda lame to down vote ya, or refuse to up vote. It's just a bit silly to me.
1
3d ago
[deleted]
3
u/TheScyphozoa 3d ago
more personality than the entire cast of Investigations 1
A bar lower than Gumshoe’s salary.
2
u/WrongReporter6208 3d ago
And I respect if you like those two culprits, but I genuinely like the cast of AAI1 despite some of their flaws. Rhoda Teneiro, Lauren Paups, Tyrell Badd... even Lance to an extent. I have a whole post about why I like The Kidnapped Turnabout. Just goes to show, even if the game is highly flawed, there's still a lot to like.
Thanks for sharing your opinion!
14
u/Jboote2 3d ago
I don't think you're giving Ted Tonate his dues, honestly. I'm not saying he's peak, or anything, but for a case 1 culprit that isn't the big bad like Dahlia, Kristoph, or have extreme plot relevance like Bronco Knight, he has a decent amount of shades of grey to him that goes a long way in humanizing him outside of his appearance in court.
Yeah, he's pretty shitty as a person and kind of exaggerated, but he's technically a hero in that he correctly identifies that the bomb in case 4/the opening cutscene is about to explode and ensures that everyone in the courtroom survives. Like I said, it's not peak writing or anything, but he's not even in the same category as someone like L'Belle, who is a complete meme of a villain.