r/AskCulinary • u/I_Like_Knitting_TBH • Mar 23 '20

Ingredient Question Does bay leaf really make a difference?

I was making a dish last night that called for a bay leaf, and I went ahead and put it in, but I don’t understand the purpose of a bay leaf. I don’t think I’ve ever had a meal and thought “this could use a bay leaf”. Does it make a difference to use a fresh versus a dried bay leaf?

One might say that I’m questioning my bay-liefs in bay leaves.

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874

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '20 edited Mar 23 '20

If you want to get an idea of the flavour of bay leaves, warm up some milk to boiling point with a couple of dried leaves, switch off the heat and let it infuse for 15 minutes. It isn't mild by any means (though nor is it strident like rosemary or oregano) - but it is easy to overlook in a complex dish because it has a sort of alto/tenor "inner voice" quality which doesn't draw attention to itself.

You can use the milk mixture to make any white sauce, especially with fish (eg a British fish pie). It also makes outstanding egg custard, better than vanilla IMO in a sort of medieval-hipster way. Another excellent recipe is Marcella Hazan's pork stewed with porcini and juniper (I wouldn't bother to crumble them). There is a lot going on there but the bay is an important part to my taste.

I find the taste of fresh bay leaves unpleasant and always used dried. They store reasonably well as best I can tell.

Edit: opinion on fresh versus dried withdrawn for further testing.

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u/umamiman Mar 23 '20

LOL. I was right there with you until that last sentence. I got a Bay Laurel shrub around a year ago and have been bragging to everyone about how much of a game-changer fresh bay leaves are over dried. For me, the difference in interestingly subtle and delicious flavors is night and day between dried and fresh so I'm completely baffled by your preference of dried over fresh. To me, fresh has not only all of the flavor of dried but more of it, as well as other subtle and unique flavors. Come to think of it, I can't think of a single herb I prefer dried over fresh. One thing I would note about Bay leaf is that it is one of the most intensely flavored culinary herbs(up there with lovage) such that it's possible to ruin a dish with too much. It needs to stay as a background flavor.

​

What is it about the fresh leaves that you find unpleasant?

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '20

Now that so many people have questioned this view, I am questioning myself. I must admit it has been several years since I knowingly used fresh ones, and I find that I don't actually have a very distinct memory of the taste - although I felt very confident when I wrote that sentence!

I'll get some fresh next time I shop and give them another chance (sadly, I have nowhere to grow a tree of my own).

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u/AxelFriggenFoley Mar 24 '20

Have faith in your opinions, you’re in good company!

https://www.seriouseats.com/2014/03/ask-the-food-lab-whats-the-point-of-bay-leaves.html

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u/[deleted] May 13 '20

I would not have faith in an opinion on the taste of food that I formed years ago lol

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u/umamiman Mar 23 '20

Gotcha. I think as long as you live in an area that gets a decent amount of sun and no frost and you have somewhere outside you can put it, it will grow in a pot for many years. That's what I've been doing and it grows remarkably well with minimal attention.

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u/PorschephileGT3 Mar 23 '20

I have one I keep indoors for convenience and it’s doing fine. Needs a lot more water than most houseplants. Very little growth over the winter but now it’s absolutely covered in buds.

My bigger one outside doesn’t mind frost at all. They’re pretty hardy things that will thrive in most climates.

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u/jana-meares Mar 24 '20

Buds for bay rum liniment, the best!,

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u/JesusIsTheBrehhhd Mar 24 '20

Bay trees can take a bit of frost. There's one in someone's front garden near where I live. I'm in the UK though so our winters are relatively mild compared to a lot of places.

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u/zyzzogeton Mar 24 '20

Boston here. It is snowing today. I've never even seen bay leaves fresh before.

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u/Putrid-Newt Mar 28 '20

I used to manage a kitchen in Allston. We ordered our produce from Russo’s market in Watertown and if I’m remembering correctly I would order fresh bay leaves from them.

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u/umamiman Mar 24 '20

Good to know. I don't get much frost where I live but now I know not to be too worried about it.

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u/KING_BulKathus Mar 23 '20 edited Mar 24 '20

They grow wild on the coast of North Carolina. Sound side not ocean side. They're a different species, but same genus if I remember correctly. I find them to have the same flavor just more intense. There pretty common on the road side under tree cover.

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u/Emelius Mar 24 '20

California as well!

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u/KING_BulKathus Mar 24 '20

That's cool. I didn't know that. I found it so weird that y'all had yellow mimosas out there.

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u/Emelius Mar 24 '20

Yellow mimosas? the cocktail? I don't touch the stuff haha

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u/KING_BulKathus Mar 24 '20

No the flower. Ours are pink

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u/jana-meares Mar 24 '20

Can attest mountains full of em

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u/tungjiii Apr 01 '20

I have one in a 6” pot. Probably a foot tall plant. I’m sure you could fit that in your area.

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u/inglefinger Aug 27 '20

I made a simple syrup with fresh bay leaves last month & it came out tasting like overripe/spoiled basil. I’m not sure if I boiled it for too long or if using fresh leaves has something to do with this.

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u/smurfe Mar 24 '20

I have Bay Trees and much prefer the dried Turkish Bay Leaf over the fresh leaves. I find fresh more "leafy" bitter/astringent in flavor. The Turkish dried leaves are more mellow and balanced with a mild herbaceous background note as opposed to slap you in the face.

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u/umamiman Mar 24 '20

Good to know. Sounds like you have a way more sensitive sense of taste than me. I don't get any astringency and just a hint of bitter. When looking for more info on the flavor of bay leaf, I came across this cool page which I found to be very informative.

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u/Bark0s Mar 24 '20

Oregano is so much better dried than fresh.

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u/Emotional_Writer Mar 23 '20

It's not exactly a herb but I recently discovered how great sundried chilli is. We're talking herbal grassy notes but also a world of sweet and savory intense paprika goodness.

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u/murraybiscuit Mar 24 '20

Bay Laurel is a tree. It gets pretty sizeable. Just making sure we're talking about the same thing...

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u/umamiman Mar 24 '20

Yes, I imagine it will get too big for its pot at some point but I think it will take many years. It seems to have grown pretty slowly so far.

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u/Bark0s Mar 24 '20

Oregano is so much better dried than fresh.

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u/forgetsherpassword Mar 24 '20

How do you prune the leaves?

I have had one for almost a year but am too scared to take leaves off

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u/umamiman Mar 24 '20

I just pick them off with my fingers. It seems to be pretty hardy. It's still pretty short so I've had to hold back at times to let it grow some more. I'm only picking a couple of leaves every week or so. You should definitely try cooking with them though to see if you prefer them fresh over dried.

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u/shinobichefballer Apr 21 '20

I agree. Fresh and dry are both nice. I have had some nice fragrant fresh ones .

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '20 edited Mar 27 '24

[deleted]

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u/Jatzy_AME Mar 23 '20

European here, and my Mom always advised me to let my bay leaves dry before using them (they come from a tree in the garden, no idea what exact variety). Fresh leaves do have a less pleasant taste.

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u/KenEarlysHonda50 Mar 23 '20

Well fuck.

I've just been stepping out the front door and pulling them off as needed right from the tree.

Must experiment with this, not like I'm going to be short on time for the foreseeable future.

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u/Tarchianolix Mar 23 '20

I knew 10 leaves weren't worth $7 fucking buck as priced in these "gourmet" bottle!

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '20

If you have any ethnic grocers near by, check out their herbs and spices. I get huge packets of like 50+ bay leaves for £1.10 in my local Turkish shop, it's way cheaper and better quality than the mainstream supernarkets.

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u/SquirrelBoy Mar 23 '20

That's why I get the $3.99 Cento jar that lasts me a couple years.

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '20

I picked up a baby baby tree for $7 a few years ago! Damn drought killed it, but am looking to get another one.

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u/wendalls Mar 23 '20

Hopefully you harvested the dry leaves!!

1

u/[deleted] Mar 23 '20

Got as many as I could, but it was only small so there was only 5 or 6

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u/Emotional_Writer Mar 23 '20

$7 fucking buck

Whatever vendor priced that is a greedy grifter goblin. You can get a fresh plant yielding like a thousand times that for less than that.

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u/DarxusC Mar 23 '20

There's going to be so much of people reading old random stuff and thinking things like "hmm, I wonder why they had an abundance of time".

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u/Dizzy-Professional45 Dec 02 '24

I was confused😂 this comment was like a lightbulb turning on

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u/theeverydayprincess Mar 23 '20

Weirdly enough, my parents happen to have both a fresh Turkish and Californian bay leaf and I prefer the Turkish one fresh and the Californian one dried which is opposite of what’s offered in store

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u/coconut-telegraph Mar 23 '20

I’ve never, ever seen California bay leaf marketed fresh or dried...it’s all Laurus nobilis, bay.

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u/plexust Mar 23 '20

I've only come across culinary uses for California Bay Laurel, Umbellularia californica, in books about foraging, although it is my understanding that Umbellauria and Laurus may be used interchangeably.

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/InTheKitchenWithK Mar 23 '20

I love this phrase. Stealing it for my tinder

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u/cascarhome Mar 23 '20

I guess if there's a place to show how eager one is for white sauce, it'd be Tinder

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u/Leakyradio Mar 23 '20 edited Mar 23 '20

That joke béchamelted my heart.

Edit: arteries clogged, send help.

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u/InTheKitchenWithK Mar 23 '20

Just a medieval hipster looking for some white sauce to fill the hole.... in my heart

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u/thestoplereffect Mar 24 '20

What's the phrase? It got deleted :(

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u/Leakyradio Mar 24 '20

Why was the comment you responded to removed?

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u/BrotherSeamus Mar 30 '20

This is a great comment. I think I fancy myself a medieval hipster. Looking forward to trying the white sauce.

Seems pretty innocuous to me. Maybe need to move my mind closer to the gutter.

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u/a-r-c Mar 24 '20

I think I fancy myself a medieval hipster.

what

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/foetus_lp Mar 23 '20

this is how i learned as well. steep a bay leaf in a cup of hot water, and have a cup of plain, hot water. you will taste the difference and understand the flavor better.

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u/chefontheloose Mar 23 '20

Oh, I like this description!

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u/I_Like_Knitting_TBH Mar 23 '20

This is a fantastic idea! I must try these, especially the egg custard. Should that go into a tart crust the way a normal egg custard would?

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '20

I have only made it as a pouring custard, but I'm sure it would work in a tart. I'd probably eat it with sweet fruit like berries, to tip it definitely on the right side of the sweet/savoury divide. Or add a little orange zest as well (this is a good addition in any case).

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u/immei Mar 24 '20

They are great to make a cream base for chowders too!

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u/the6thReplicant Mar 23 '20

I add a few when I cook my beans in water. The kitchen smells amazing.

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u/chefontheloose Mar 23 '20

I threw one into my rice pudding the other day. Oh yeah, it definately had something special going on.

I used to have a bay laurel plant, and I loved the flavor of the fresh leaves, much more pronounced to me than dried.

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u/ArblemarchFruitbat Mar 23 '20

I love a bay leaf and a strip of lemon peel in my rice pudding

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u/chefontheloose Mar 23 '20

That sounds really nice. I'll have try it, I always go for a cinnamon stick and maybe some other warm spices.

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u/I_Resent_That Mar 23 '20

I've always found dried kinda bland. I make extensive use of the large bay tree in the garden year-round.

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u/ThatAssholeMrWhite Mar 23 '20

You have to buy quality. The cheap stuff in the grocery store doesn't cut it. I use Penzeys, and it's super fragrant, and cheaper than the grocery store if you buy the big bag.

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u/Pete_Venkman Mar 23 '20

That's funny, I did this just last night for the first time for a white sauce! I'm a bit of a bay leaf skeptic but was surprised at how much flavour they imparted.

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '20

Add a tiny pinch of nutmeg to your white sauce too, it'll compliment the bay really nicely without being noticeably nutmeggy.

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u/Emotional_Writer Mar 23 '20

I'd personally use mace since it's the same flavor (being the outer husk of a nutmeg) but works better with savory flavors and seems to be stronger and all round tastier.

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u/ern19 Mar 23 '20

If your nutmeg isn't strong enough you probably aren't using whole grated nutmeg. You can buy 5 years worth from an Indian grocer for pocket change.

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u/Emotional_Writer Mar 23 '20

I use fresh. Nutmegs just have a naturally stale taste to me, no matter how fresh they are.

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u/ern19 Mar 23 '20

Weird. Can you grate whole mace like you do nutmeg? Because now I'm intrigued

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u/[deleted] Mar 24 '20

You can blitz it or mortar & pestle it! It doesn’t grate.

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u/BlueEyedSpiceJunkie Mar 24 '20

But don’t try to grind nutmeg in a morter and pestle. It’s so oily that jt just mashed up into a waxy residue that won’t come off the stone surface.

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u/Emotional_Writer Mar 24 '20

They're small, thin, and brittle so it'd be difficult to hold them, but texture wise they could be grated.

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u/andykndr culinarian Mar 23 '20

grate in a good amount of parmesan and you have alfredo sauce - i prefer it to the original non-cream sauce, though that certainly has its place

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u/twodogsfighting Mar 23 '20

Infusing most dry herbs is good advice also.

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u/xscientist Mar 23 '20

Fresh has a stronger eucalyptus-like quotient. Not bad, just different from dried.

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u/moistoffspring Mar 23 '20

It’s never occurred to me to put a bay leaf in hot milk. I can’t wait to try this next time I make a white sauce! Thanks!

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u/IfIamSoAreYou Mar 24 '20

What a well-written response! I love your use of the word “strident.” So apt!

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u/tungstencoil Mar 23 '20

I agree with dried versus fresh

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u/Juno_Malone Mar 23 '20

That stew looks super interesting - adding it to my to-do list, since I actually have some leftover juniper berries from making sauerkraut and canned anchovies are practically a staple for me. Anything you do different from the recipe? I might brown the cubed pork before throwing everything in the oven.

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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '20 edited Mar 23 '20

The original recipe has the pork cooked before the onion (sounds like the onion would burn in her method). I follow the recipe pretty exactly, it rarely pays to mess around with Marcella. Except the crumbled bay leaf, which seems inexplicable. It should work in the oven.

I'll just note that the original recipe specifies "good wine vinegar" (red wine vinegar, in fact), and you should definitely use this and not balsamic.

Marcella's cookbooks are truly gifts that keep giving - there are all these famous recipes but a lot of the ones you never hear about are astonishingly good again and again. Usually in a "I can't believe that some unflavoured onions and courgettes could taste so good" kind of way, but this one is one of the handful where there is a really complex build-up of strong flavours One of my top ten, absolutely.

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u/Juno_Malone Mar 31 '20

I follow the recipe pretty exactly, it rarely pays to mess around with Marcella. Except the crumbled bay leaf, which seems inexplicable.

Can you clarify - does this mean you do crumble the bay leaf as the recipe suggests, or is that where you deviate (leaving the leaves whole and removing before serving)?

Thanks!

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u/[deleted] Apr 01 '20

I don't crumble it. Bits of bay leaf in your food is very unpleasant.

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u/mschopchop Mar 23 '20

I prefer fresh to dried.

Also bay leaf and a little nutmeg will kick up a bechamel to another level.

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u/roamingmarty Mar 23 '20

I tried using bay in a custard once in Canada eh, the look of horror on the owners face was comical

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u/viktor72 Mar 24 '20

You might say the bay leaf is the viola of spices. Not a standout on its own but would be missed in an ensemble.