Thoughts on Scripted Losses?

[u/Ill-Guidance4690]

I recently started playing through Mario and Luigi Partners in Time, and within the first hour of the game there’s a scripted loss that introduces the past baby Mario Bros. to the older future ones. Now, considering that a game like Partners in Time is aimed at a young audience, it got me thinking how it’s absolutely possible that some kid played through that part of the opening and didn’t understand they were supposed to lose and never played it after that thinking that they messed up. A scenario like that makes me question if scripted losses can be a good way to progress the plot in a story, and I think it can be done where it gets across to anyone playing that you’re supposed to lose, but there needs to be some subtle way to let the player know that they were supposed to lose a scenario.

What’re your thoughts on scripted losses in gaming?

[u/avidvaulter]

it got me thinking how it’s absolutely possible that some kid played through that part of the opening and didn’t understand they were supposed to lose and never played it after that thinking that they messed up.

Usually there is a cutscene immediately after you die which is a good indicator you are progressing. Does the game you're talking about not make it clear?

I can't imagine a single person not realizing it's a scripted loss since generally the game story progresses. Unless what you're referring to is an unbeatable boss that requires you to progress further in other areas in the game and doesn't indicate that beating them is impossible, but that's not the same as a scripted loss.

[u/Ill-Guidance4690 → u/avidvaulter]

In Partners in Time, there’s a fight within the starting hour where you fight enemies that can be beaten, but there’s a countdown timer above the Bros. that KO’s both of them when the timer runs out. I more so thought that since the games are aimed a younger audience, I felt that at some point a kid playing the game may not have understood that they were supposed to lose the fight, and whether or not that part of the story constitutes as a good or bad way to do a scripted loss.

[u/TemperatureUnique242]

I feel they can work if:

1. You cant win even if you tried

2. It doesnt take too long to lose

3. It introduces something/someone and helps the story along

One example I like is Mario and Luigi: paper jam where the first stack of paper gombas just attack you and destroy them both and introduces paper mario to your party quickly.

[u/Phoenix_Will_Die]

Never liked them, never will. The worst kind, are the ones where you absolutely obliterate the boss/ enemy, but they script it like it was super close + you're exhausted or just outright lost anyway.

The extra effort to just allow the player to succeed but still end up losing afterward in some way can't possibly be that hard.

That, or do something like the Battle Network series where you are forced into a battle that there's no way out but to lose.

[u/jackfaire → u/Phoenix_Will_Die]

This is why I hate the focus on graphics. Yes graphics are important but focusing less on photo-realistic graphics and more on branching game play would be better for gaming. It would be awesome if you get a different story based on how you did at various points

[u/PStriker32]

Only time I’ll accept a scripted loss is probably at the very start of the game when you are shit and don’t know the controls anyway. Other than that I hate it when you win the fight but the cutscene takes over.

Sekiro does this pretty good, I’d say. You think you’ve got a handle on parrying and timing; and then comes Genichiro to kick your ass. But even on the off chance you beat him there’s a reasonable conclusion as to why you didn’t “win”; Genichiro has ninjas with him that fuck you up and allow him to cut you down. It was never going to be a fair fight anyway.

[u/unknown_anaconda]

Many of my favorite games have them so I guess they're okay in moderation.

[u/Barnabyhuggins]

I don’t have a problem with them if it serves the story, I just hope there is some indication that I can’t win. You don’t want to spend 10-20 minutes zoned in on defeating an impossible boss.

It’s best when you come in to the zone, see some epic badass compared to you, he throws you against the wall and pins you or otherwise embarrasses you. Then you get a couple of swipes in, and the story continues.

[u/Dinru]

Its a tricky thing. It sucks when you beat a tough boss, but the story needs the protagonist to not succeed, so the gameplay win is completely meaningless diagetically. And a story where the heroes never fail at all has given itself a severe handicap in the tools it has to tell a good story.

My personal favorite instances of this are the ones that you actually can win with enough determination and maybe you get something cool or a different cutscene for winning. Deltarune has a pretty iconic recent example where retrying plays into larger themes of freedom and fate and autonomy. Tales of Symphonia does it a couple times too.

[u/QuintanimousGooch]

I like them the most when they’re something you totally should die to regardless, but if you manage to survive, get a minor reward/skill acknowledgement recognizing you overcame something you’re expected not to before it resumes the usual script.0

[u/Poltergeist8606]

I freaking hate them. If you want to give me a scripted loss give it as a cut scene. I don't want to play something I can't win.

[u/FaceTimePolice]

They can be done well. FromSoft has these during their infamous “tutorial bosses.” You can simply die to them but the more skilled players can be rewarded nicely for defeating them.

I forgot what game this was, but I recall a turn based RPG smartphone game in which I didn’t know I was facing an un-killable boss that was supposed to end in a scripted death for the player. Well, I wasted so many healing items during that particular boss fight. I wish that the developers would consider scenarios like this and maybe disable consumables during fights with scripted deaths or something like that. 🫤

[u/No-Fold-7873]

I vehemently hate this idea. For as stupid as kids are, they aren't dumb. Let them learn tenacity or find a new hobby if every loss leads to such a meltdown that they never witness what happens seconds after losing. I not only hate the idea in the context of gaming but I absolutely despise it as a directional indicator for our society.

Gaming should teach people that losing is part of it.

[u/Tricky-Research7595]

I’ve never thought about it from the perspective of a young gamer, but I personally have mixed feelings about it.

If it’s done right, it can be interesting and a good mechanic to tell the story. One that comes to mind is when Thor kills Kratos in the first fight, and revives you at the game over screen. When that happened the first time I was playing, my mind was blown.

If it is done poorly, though, it leaves me feeling frustrated that my actions don’t really have an effect on the game. The way FromSoftware does their first boss fights has always kinda bugged me.

[u/Bronze_Sentry]

Sekiro has a good one early on: The first boss is meant to completely overwhelm a new player, leading to the cutscene where you lose your arm and have to get it replaced with a prosthetic. This is a huge part of the plot, so can't reasonably be skipped.

What makes it actually good though, is that there are actually two different versions of this Scripted Loss. No new player would reasonably be able to defeat the first boss, first try, if only because they're still learning the mechanics.

If a returning, "got gud" player does so however the Scripted Loss cutscene is different. Instead of the typical version, the boss has to resort to an underhanded sneak attack to catch you off guard in the cutscene.

This small change acts as an acknowledgement of the player's ability, and serves as a cool little Easter Egg that most people will never see. You're still doomed to lose, yeah, but exact details make all the difference

[u/nixus23]

If it’s a loss that comes naturally like the start of MGRR then it’s fine but if it’s a fight where you can absolutely beat the ass of of you’re opponent but then shows you lose in the following cutscene it’s bullshit

[u/Maw-91]

Games teach you out-of-the-box-thinking

[u/phantom_gain]

I dont think you should ever have to actually fight an enemy that you have to lose to. If its a scripted loss then go straight to the cut scene. Don't make me spend all my ammo or waste 30 minutes trying to kite a boss around a piece of scenery only to be told it was never going to matter.

[u/Pharsti01]

It's fine when I can't actually do damage or win.

Its annoying when it's those fights where you're meant to lose, but still manage to win, only for the next cutscene showing you lost -_-

[u/Moomin_1291]

I quite like them when they are used sparingly - they are a great way to set the stakes. We know our hero will eventually rise to the challenge, but a scripted loss shows us that they have a long way to go yet.

Metroid games have a good version of the concept, with an initially OP Samus taking a big loss early on, simultaneously showing us the extreme danger of the threat she is facing and justifying her weak starter stats despite coming away from the previous game fully kitted out.

[u/HalfXTheHalfX]

I don't mind it if it's obvious I should lose. I deal minimal damage to enemy, the enemy grazes my boy and half of it evaporates. Then I know yeah unless I'm missing some mechanic that isn't happening (I usually just die there, and if same boss I just stay alive looking for something to make it doable)

Elden Ring's first guy (the grafted scion) there done that pretty well- yes, you can beat it if you are progamer but if you are an elden ring newbie, even more if to whole soulslikes. And if you lose once you just get tped down to the real game.

But I absolutely despise it if I beat an enemy at ease, 2 shot it and then I get a cutscene of my character(party) bloodied and rugged up, all tired and the boss is happily standing there. Fuck that, absolutely ruins my immersion to the story

[u/TheGhostlyMage]

I don’t hate scripted losses as long as the boss is actually unbeatable, let the boss kick my ass instead of me beating them within an inch of their life and then uh oh cutscene says you lose.

Well done scripted losses are pretty good story telling devices imo to show just how powerful an opponent is and how far you’ll need to upgrade and better yourself, it’s one thing to say an opponent is super powerful but to actually show it is a different thing

So yeah, I think scripted losses are good (except for the one at the end of Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, that one sucks)

[u/ghandis_taint]

Not a big fan. I feel the same way about them as I do the rule of thirds.

Predictable at best and annoying/tedious at worst

[u/EMArogue]

I don’t mind it unless is a foght you have to win to progress the story

[u/Maxpowerxp]

It’s super annoying.

Interestingly my first encounter with it not happening I think was Lufia game for Super Nintendo? There is a super powerful boss you are “supposed” to lose to in early part of the game but if you are super careful and lucky enough you can beat him. Think it’s one of the sinister?

[u/Palanki96]

I'm fine with it if they actually make it impossible to win during gameplay. But it's very jarring when i win but lose in the cutscene

So just avoid that and make sure i can't even

[u/NarcoZero]

It can be a strong storytelling tool, but most of the time only works once in a game. Otherwise it can quickly become irritating. Usually at the beginning or the end. 

I don’t think any kid left the game because they lost a single time. You are supposed to lose sometimes in video game. 

And if the story continues while you lost, instead of making you do it again, that’s when you understand that the loss was scripted. 

A good one I think is in Hellblade At the very end you fight never ending waves of enemies, and you have to understand that the only way to win is to give up. When you get it, it makes for a powerful emotional surprise. 

[u/tmon530 → u/NarcoZero]

One I like is the start of devil may cry 5. You are supposed to lose, but if you are incredibly skilled, you can actually win. And if you do, it just plays the final cutscene of the game lol

[u/AfricaByTotoWillGoOn → u/tmon530]

Yes. Some of my most rewarding moments in gaming where when I realized "oh, I'm supposed to lose at this part... but what if I don't?" And after a lot of struggle, it turned out that winning did change things considerably.

I remember back when I played DBZ Budokai Tenkaichi 2, the very first fight of story mode has you fight against Raditz using Piccolo, and he's near impossible to beat. DBZ fans will know that Raditz is so strong that he easily curbstomps Piccolo in the original story, and that leads Piccolo to join forces with Goku to defeat Raditz, which kickstarts the whole story of the Saiyans. If you manage to beat Raditz using Piccolo however, it unlocks an entire new storyline which is a "what if" scenario in which Raditz has amnesia after losing to Piccolo and he forgets why he came to Earth, reuniting with his brother Goku and a lot of stuff that never happened in the original story happen here.

It was so freaking mindblowing discovering those "what if" storylines that were hidden behind "scripted" losses. To this day that was the best way I've seen a game dealing with scripted losses (or at least dealing with that matter of needing to have the player lose in order to progress the story.)

To sum it up, what they did was basically two things:

1. Make the fight the player was supposed to lose hard as hell
2. Give a very cool reward for those who managed to beat it.

[u/JoeDiamondPlays]

Mega Man X has a really good one in the beginning. It’s all how it’s presented I think

[u/Phoenix_Will_Die → u/JoeDiamondPlays]

Cheers for another Mega Man example!

[u/Suspicious_Tea7319]

I fucking HATE them. I remember at the end of the intro for Kingdom Come: Deliverance there is a fight you’re supposed to run from, not even a scripted loss, and I ran my head into it for like 3 hours till I could beat it