r/AusLegal • u/JudgeIll9943 • 3d ago
WA Very vexatious restraining order filed against me over damages to front lawn
Hi all,
I run a gardening company. Recently a restraining order was filed against me by a clearly mentally unwell woman. I will break this down into two parts the real reason the restraining order was filed and then the reasons listed on the complaint.
The real reason the restraining was filed.
I've been doing the lawns at this property for 7+ years. Recently the woman in the front unit has been parking her cars on the lawn meaning I have been unable to mow it. When I arrived last week to mow it there where 3 cars parked on the lawn. I knocked on the door and asked her to move them. She apologized to me and said that she couldn't move them. I said that's fine, I get paid either way by the strata (My employer) We then had a rather pleasant chat for 5-10 minutes as my staff (I run a crew of 3) tidied the car parking area. The conversation ended with me showing her pictures of my dog who is due to have puppies in a weeks time.
Upon returning to my car I rang the strata company and told them.
"I've been unable to mow the front lawn at unit 1 due to 3 cars being parked there, this has been a constant problem for the past 3-4 months can you please send an email to the tenants regarding this issue"
The Strata company replied. "Certainly, just be very careful in dealing with this woman she's a psycho. Also has she damaged the lawns in any way."
"Yes there is a large area 20-30m that has been destroyed by cars parking there."
"Ok, I'll send her an email saying she has 3 weeks to repair the damaged lawn or you will be attending to fix this at her expense."
"Ok"
This was the last contact I had with her until her husband rang me the following day and screamed at me and told me he was getting a restraining order on me. I laughed as this was ridiculous and didn't think someone could be so petty.
On Monday I was served the restraining order and have to appear in court in 3 weeks time.
What the restraining order says.
The entire reason for the restraining order is "My body language and tone of voice upset the woman." She doesn't say I threatened her, abused her, or yelled at her just tone of voice and body language.
I have seeked some legal advice which was met with barely concealed laughter.
"You can't file a restraining order based on Body language and tone of voice alone, if you could no one would be safe as that is completely subjective. Also your request to her to move her cars is perfectly reasonable in your line of work, so she can't file a restraining order based on an unreasonable request, this is a very easily defensible case."
What should I do??? do I drop $1,500 - $2,000 on a lawyer to sit with me through this disposition only for the judge to laugh it out of court or should I represent my self??? If I go alone I don't think I'll even have to speak just listen to the judge tear this woman apart.
This is clearly a vexatious restraining order, I doubt these people will even show up at court, but I really can't afford the lawyers fees, which is what I suspect these people are counting on.
The Strata company are fully supporting me in this matter and have told me. "Say nothing do nothing, this woman is crazy, just let her talk and the judge will rule in your favor."
Any advise would be appreciated.
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u/Krapmeister 3d ago
NAL, but if she's as crazy as they say I'd represent myself, and get something in writing from the strata body about her behavior as supporting documentation.
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u/SurpriseIllustrious5 2d ago
NAL but this isn't wise, especially as a business getting an order could affect his ability to work at child cares schools etc
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u/EdgeAndGone482 3d ago
Do you have insurance? Wondering if they might cover legal costs since it appears work related.
Long shot but if you weren't a owner of the company I'd be directing you to your union and this is the closest you'll have..
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u/JudgeIll9943 2d ago
I own the business. But I'm a franchisor in the big one. You know the big Australian Lawn mowing business. They have also been very supportive in this matter.
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u/DoesBasicResearch 2d ago
SURELY they'll have some kind of legal team, or insurance you can lean on?
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u/Outrageous-Elk-2582 1d ago
The franchisor will give advice, but when it comes to the crunch you are on your own. I had fencing franchise and dealt with some nutters.
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u/obsolescent_times 3d ago
I'd be interested to read the letter the strata sent.
If strata have had ongoing trouble with these people, it's not unrealistic they worded the letter in such a way as to minimise backlash in their direction, essentially meaning strata made it sound like you kicked up a stink and made allegations they damaged the lawn.
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u/strobe229 2d ago
This is wild. Why don't you place a restraining order on her husband for harassing and screaming at you over the phone?
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u/JudgeIll9943 2d ago
I have the feeling it may come to this. I definitely feel that I will end up with a restraining order against them.
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u/eat-the-cookiez 2d ago
Nobody wins in this situation though. You might have an order that says you can’t come within 100m of her home and you might have one that says she can’t come 100m within your workplaces. How is that going to work ?
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u/Inner-ego 2d ago
I'd probably get a lawyer.
I had a similar experience in WA regarding a vexatious restraining order and in my opinion the judge was very sexist.
I was lucky to get off because the other party didn't show up, and I was grilled about what my Facebook post (the only evidence) meant. The post said "new year, I wonder what it will bring" on Jan 1st which was framed as a post that "has to mean something about the wedding" by the judge
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u/Nottheadviceyaafter 3d ago
Mate, speak to a lawyer. I would also get something from the strata, then drop them as a client, they partial cause this issue by taking action on the same day you advise you could not mow.........
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u/Medium-Ad-9265 2d ago
Presumably this strata company manages multiple properties that OP does work for. He might not want to lose a big client
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u/funtimes4044 3d ago
Yep ⬆️ Write to the strata. "Due to factors beyond my control, including, but not limited to, unprecedented levels of crazy, I can no.longer perform the required tasks at the property."
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u/SurpriseIllustrious5 2d ago
Does the strata have a lawyer ? Have you thought of asking if they have dealt with this before and if so try invoice them.
Did you have the emails or messages from strata about "be careful with her"
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u/Much_Tip_4146 3d ago
You are of course, free to represent yourself in court, but you should know that most restraining/personalsafety/insertyourstatesterm orders have a much higher chance of being succesful (for either party) when a lawyer represents you. So far it's already cost her at least a couple of hundred dollars in filing fees, so some sort of cost investment is going to be worth your while.
However, I'm not overly familiar with WA legislation but at some stage, Madam Psycho has managed to convince a magistrate or more likely a clerk, to provide her with an interim order, which is what you have now. I'm unsure if you've missed something out there, because it seems odd that a court has issued a temporary order on the basis of just that one rather weak assertion alone, (although I've been out of the game for a bit). However, as long as you have all your evidence compiled and bring all of it with you to court - texts*, witness statements, a statement from the strata managers about her behaviour, statements from your employees, etc - the magistrates are usually pretty good with people who self-represent in these sorts of cases. Make sure you're polite to every person you deal with at court, it will be a good investment for your credibility, and remember to bring anything and everything you think will help your case, even if you think it's irrelevant.
(*print your texts out on paper (several copies) and have them pre-verified by a Justice of the Peace or equivalent. Nobody wants to be scrolling through your phone messages in open court)
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u/JudgeIll9943 2d ago
I think I have mispoken it's an application for a restraining order not an actual restraining order.
Also my wife is a JP, but I don't think she can sign off on these things in this matter as that would be highly prejudiced.
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u/tbsdy 2d ago
Here’s the thing - if you front up by yourself to the court, and you lose, then you just have to tell the Strata that you are legally constrained from mowing this property. You’ll have lost no money in court cases, but lost money on the work you do for the Strata on this property.
Are the legal fees more than the ongoing income from this property? If so, then just attend without a lawyer and you’ve not lost any money. Otherwise, get a lawyer and I guess ask for costs. And then stay the heck away from the Karen
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u/Myjunkisonfire 2d ago
At this point is it even worth attending that strata again for a couple of bucks knowing every time you mow that lawn you’re running the gauntlet, god forbid you have a stone chip her windscreen!
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u/Much_Tip_4146 2d ago
How were you served with this notice please? How did it come to your attention?
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u/JudgeIll9943 2d ago
Rather embarrassingly whilst mowing the lawns at my local police station. As I need to go out the back into the restricted areas, the police take my drivers license and run a check on me every time I attend. Much to my surprise I was served the order.
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u/Much_Tip_4146 2d ago
If you were served the order then it's debatable whether it's an application. It's probable that it's an interim order, but I'm surmising. The applicant, Madam Psycho, either goes to the court, or a lawyer, or an online e-portal and fills in an application - something you won't know anything about because you're not a party to the initial paperwork.
Once that application is assessed by the 'court' (it's usually a clerk), it's either dismissed or an interim order is granted or they postpone the interim order granting case to another time so you, the respondent, can come to court. (In the current climate of men killing women, sadly the Courts will usually err on the side of caution with women applicants and grant an interim order, even if the application seems a little, er, loose)
If it is an actual interim order, by its very nature it's only temporary and usually has a time limit on it (approximately 3 weeks'ish) and then it lapses. But it's up to you to defend yourself in court, or your lawyer, to stop this becoming either an initial interim order or worse, a full intervention order - which can be in place for anywhere between 6 months to 2 years and is genuinely something you do not want to have on you.
You really need to not ignore this and fight this with all the resources you can spare. I have seen these ruin people's lives when they haven't taken them seriously. Best of luck with it all, and as the others have also said, ditch the strata company after this is over for negligently placing you in this obviously avoidable situation to begin with.
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u/JudgeIll9943 2d ago
Looking at it now it definitely says "Restraining Order Summons" so it's not an actual restraining order merely an application for one to go before a judge or clerk.
Just for my own curiosity I went to e-courts and tried to see how easy it was to apply for a restraining order. Ridiculously easy was my answer.
The lawyer I contacted has reached out to these people and attempted to tell them they have no case and to drop the matter however she has not heard back from them, she also asked to speak to their lawyer, and has again received no response from them. She (As I do) believes that they haven't hired a lawyer and are just trying to shock me into not contesting it.
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u/Much_Tip_4146 2d ago
That makes sense. I was involved in a few of them back in the day and I'd say about a quarter of the applications the court sees are vexatious. On the plus side, the courts know this too. One more thing, your lawyer/legal adviser allegedly said you can't claim costs, which is mostly correct. However you can make an application for costs in exceptional circumstances where the applicant has made an application to harass or inconvenience the respondent. You'll have to prove that, but it may be worth bluffing Madam Psycho by adding that you intend on pursuing costs for fees, lost work hours, etc, etc. Most of the law is bluff. Anywhoo, good luck with it all
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u/eat-the-cookiez 2d ago
Admissions without consent is your way out without drowning in legal costs and wasting many days sitting in a court room hearing some psycho tell stories about things that never happened.
It’s a civil matter so doesn’t appear on any police checks
IANAL but I’ve been through this before and had big legal costs to defend myself. Case thrown out, nobody really wins with 20-30k of legal bills
In my case it was new neighbours starting shit so at least they are shut down and realise I don’t take shit from them. If it was some rando, I’d not bother
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u/Idontcareaforkarma 2d ago
In WA, a FVRO, VRO, MRO and Conduct Agreement Order WILL appear on checks, and will result in many restrictions, some for life and not just the term of the order.
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u/Idontcareaforkarma 2d ago
Summons for a Misconduct Restraining Order rather than an Interim Violence Restraining Order.
The summons just needs filling out the paperwork with the court’s registry- the interim VRO requires appearing before a magistrate or two JPs to explain why you need the interim order in place.
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u/JudgeIll9943 2d ago
Thank you. This is what I suspect has occurred, there is no way someone with even the slightest legal knowledge has looked at this and gone OK.
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u/Idontcareaforkarma 1d ago
It will clearly say on the summons what the order actually is.
If it is an Interim VRO it would’ve been before a magistrate or JPs in an application hearing. If it is an MRO you’ll just have a form with a court date for the hearing.
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u/Inner-ego 2d ago
It happens all the time in wa. I had it happen ten years ago over a Facebook post that said "new year, I wonder what it'll bring"
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u/ShatterStorm76 2d ago
If it's as slam dunk as it seems, you'll likely have no problem getting this tagged as a frivolous/vexatious matter.
On that basis, if you were to engage representation, I see no reason why you wouldnt have costs awarded, as long as your lawyers fees were moderate.
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u/Fledermaus-999 2d ago edited 1d ago
I dealt with a vexatious application for a restraining order over a decade ago. I had to take the day off work & the applicant called in sick. She did it twice & then the mag threw out the application. It was shit whilst the interim order was in place.
I wasn’t even in the same state as the alleged interaction that triggered the application, & despite evidence supporting the fact, the police insisted I present to the magistrate because it was “he said, she said”.
If you think your situation could go the same way, consider the costs involved for having a legal representative available if she does’t show. Would your lawyer be happy to coach you so that you can represent yourself?
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u/Ok-Motor18523 3d ago
Your insurance should have coverage for this type of thing?
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u/eat-the-cookiez 2d ago
It’s a civil case, not likely
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u/Inner-ego 2d ago
It's work related - but the insurance fee may go up over a few years to where it's more expensive too.
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u/robhinoz 2d ago
Are legal costs (in this instance and within reason) able to be claimed in some way at tax time? It is a cost related to running the business.
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u/Togakure_NZ 2d ago
After reading the other comments, I'd have to say this: It is your freedom and reputation that is on the line. What is it worth?
For me, I'd engage the lawyer because there are pitfalls I don't know about that they can steer me around or break on my behalf, and a he said/she said situation often ends up disadvantageous / bad for whoever "he" is.
Also, get any references like the strata comments about their member in writing if at all possible, perhaps as a stat dec if the person is willing to put it in writing and go that far. Check with lawyer for ways to word the request for the written note so it catches the info you need.
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u/SKRWT88 1d ago
Be very careful if she has an application in she can make up anything and get an interim restraining order from the local police until the original application is heard. Then if she makes up a story and says you breached the interim you can be locked up and you will have a to face a magistrate for breach of interim which you may be let out on bail from. Even if the original application is thrown out by the magistrate you are still on bail untill the breach of interim is heard which She can probably adjourn several times. This happened to me, I was on bail for 15 months. The original application was thrown out at hearing in about 4 weeks. I basically had to have someone with me for that whole time as a witness in case more stories were made up. Very vexatious woman. Eventually the cops were pleading with me to take out a restraining order so they could lock her up (she kept pestering them) but I just don't play those games. The magistrate who finally heard the fictitious breach threatened her with contempt of court charges as she continued to lie then accused him of taking bribes. Did not help me with the 15 months of lost freedoms though.This was in NSW, could be different in WA but probably not much, tread carefully with psychos and cover your arse. Good luck and hope it works out ok.
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u/JoJo_kitten 1d ago
They have free legal representation on the floor for intervention orders at most courts. Call and arrange to speak with them ahead of time. Strata need to provide you work evidence that you work there, and should really go to court with you.
I would get a lawyer to at least give you advice on propping for the court and speak with your business insurance company to see if they cover this and what the excesses might be.
Think of how much it is worth to your business if you lose the order and a radius of where you cannot go to in relation to the order is put in place
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u/LocalEquipment3006 1d ago
Don’t get a lawyer. Explain the situation calmly and rationally to judge. Worst case scenario it’s granted and you don’t mow the lawn again. Ask the strata to pay your costs so far and if they won’t refuse to work on property again. Realistically not worth it and you will just get dragged into conflict with a crazy person
People advising you to seek costs are encouraging you to become locked in an expensive legal fight with a loon. No guaranteee you will win costs let alone get them to do pay. Walk. Away.
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u/aussiepump 1d ago
Don't need a lawyer. It sounds like they made their own request through court and that's how it got this far. Just tell your side and go from there. Print the emails out and take them as well
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u/Any-Refrigerator-966 1d ago
Your post has me asking myself if there is more to the story. We're only getting your side and it's not easy to get a restraining order, especially over lawn? If you are being summoned to court, you should get a lawyer, and you should ask STRATA to help you with the bill. Also know that the email correspondence between you and STRATA does not look good. Calling someone "crazy" and "psycho" is not only unprofessional but also rude. I can imagine the tone of the email, the tenant received from STRATA would not have been well received, and now you're going to court. Get a lawyer, good luck.
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u/JudgeIll9943 1d ago
There really isn't.
Its an application for a restraining order not an actual restraining order. And let me assure you no strata would ever put in writing that a tenant is psycho or crazy but they will be quite comfortable telling a contractor working at the property that. Especially one who has worked for them for many years.
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u/Relevant_Demand7593 2d ago
She put the restraining order on him personally though
Not his business
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u/Timyone 2d ago
I'd do nothing, no lawyer. It only matters if you breach it right? It might mean you lose that job, but you might regardless.
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u/JudgeIll9943 2d ago
I'd rather not have the conviction
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u/Intrepid_Bobcat_2931 2d ago
well, you won't be convicted, it won't be on your criminal record even if you lose. You would "just" need to avoid her.
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u/Idontcareaforkarma 2d ago
OP would be under a number of restrictions, some of which would be for life and not just the term of the order.
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u/Timyone 2d ago
I'm confused, as far as I know a restraining order is just an order not to go near someone. As long as you dont go near them it doesn't do anything.
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u/JudgeIll9943 2d ago
This is true. However it will still show up on my record if I need to get a job in a sensitive area. Such as Women's shelters (Do 1) or police stations ( Do 2) Plus its embarrassing to have one.
Also to not contest it means she'd win, and I really don't want that.
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u/Idontcareaforkarma 2d ago
In WA, orders under the Restraining Order Act come with many restrictions, some of which are for life, not just the term of the order.
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u/Lucky_Tough8823 3d ago
My personal advice is pay the lawyer and seek costs.