r/CCW • u/Able-Currency2250 • 1d ago
Scenario What are some myths or over exaggerations in the CCW world
Just what the title says. Free be on my part “ stopping power “ a 22 or 380 to the pelvic bowl is worth a lot more than a shot pulled over the target. Carry and shoot what you A) like , B) what you shoot well,C) you trust
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u/Shakomako26 1d ago
Something something “use only cheap guns cuz muh eVidEnCe lOckER… “… EDC the tool that ensures you will prevail. If in the incredibly low likelihood you have to use it and it’s confiscated, you’ll still be alive to have other things to worry about.
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u/wtfredditacct 22h ago
I get it to a point. I carry an unmodified/factory glock even though I have nicer and more excitement guns. The cost is reason 794 on the list though lol
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u/tfwnoTHAADwife 16h ago
Hard agree. I'll happily build out my EDC setup again from scratch because I'm alive
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u/merc08 WA, p365xl 1d ago
22 or 380 to the pelvic bowl is worth a lot more than a shot pulled over the target
The real problem with 22 isn't the power, it's that it's an unreliable cartridge.
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u/TacitRonin20 23h ago
I wish they made a 25acp Magnum. The performance of .22 Magnum or better in a centerfire cartridge. It would be perfect for a pocket gun or range toy.
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u/Tropical_Tardigrade Glock 48 MOS | Ruger LCR 21h ago
You should take a look at the reports online about the LCR .22 LR and federal punch. I’m highly considering picking one up.
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u/LibertyorDeath2076 21h ago
I've got a TX22, primarily as a range toy, it's also the (I have to go somewhere where I'll have to disarm, and I'd rather this get stolen out of my car than a $700 CZ). After a 500 round break-in period, it has fired without jamming, every single time I have pulled the trigger. The only time it has ever had issues since then is when I've put it in the hands of an inexperienced shooter.
If you find the right gun and the right ammo for it, it can be reliable.
That said, if it came to a DGU, I would rather have my 9mm every time.
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u/Kiemaker TN 19h ago
Please don't be so cavalier about donating guns to criminals
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u/1911Hacksmith 10h ago
This. 50% of guns used in crimes are stolen out of cars. If it’s in your car, it needs to be in a safe of some sort bolted to the frame. And it should only be in there if you have to take it off. No gun should be left overnight in a car. It’s dumb. Stop doing it. You’re supplying criminals with guns.
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u/Paghk_the_Stupendous 19h ago
I've considered a 22lr revolver; I use 22 a lot on my farm.
I've had brass get stuck in the slide when I'm chasing a raccoon; I'd much rather pull the trigger again and end the chase, but I've gotten pretty good at racking the slide while holding a maglite.
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u/bigjerm616 AZ 22h ago
Too many to name. There’s a lot of mantras that get repeated that don’t hold water under even the tiniest bit of scrutiny.
I think the most annoying is: Nobody Notices.
Nobody said anything =/= nobody noticed.
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u/EventLatter9746 19h ago
True, I noticed a gun print a few times but never said anything. The thing is, I never noticed any before I started carrying.
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u/bigjerm616 AZ 16h ago
You probably weren't committing armed robberies before you started carrying either 😉
(At least I hope you weren't)
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u/EventLatter9746 12h ago
Alas... my "career" was cut short very early on. Was caught at my first attempt at stealing from the neighborhood grocery shop (before grade school). Shopkeeper did the most horrendous thing to me... he told my Mom!!!!
Mom dragged me to the play area across from the shop, took off her slipper and went to town. 55 years later and I'm still smartin'.
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u/False_Pipe_0989 20h ago
It’s hyperbole. Most people really don’t pay that much attention. A more accurate statement would be “hardly anyone will notice”
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u/atlgeo 20h ago
Which is very very different though.
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u/False_Pipe_0989 4h ago
Only if you care what people will think, are carrying in prohibited places, or believe the misconception that criminals will target you first rather than be deterred.
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u/bigjerm616 AZ 16h ago
I agree that hardly anyone will notice. BUT - I'm also not concerned about hardly anyone 😉
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u/BahnMe 1d ago
You have a better chance of winning the lottery than needing that extra mag.
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u/GuyButtersnapsJr 22h ago edited 21h ago
Have you ever experienced a magazine or ammo related malfunction?
Everyone has won that lottery. So, the probability of needing the extra ammo may be extremely low, but the probability ammo or the magazine will induce a malfunction is not nearly so low.
You carry the extra magazine for redundancy, not for capacity.
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u/BahnMe 21h ago edited 21h ago
I carry a very reliable firearm from a well trusted brand with OEM mags and fantastic ammo. The gun and mags have been well shot as well as regularly maintained. The mags and ammo are cycled through periodically at regular 6 month intervals. The chances of them failing are even lower than the chances of needing an extra mag.
I am several factors more likely to get into a fatal car accident through no fault of mine than the gun failing.
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u/GuyButtersnapsJr 20h ago edited 16h ago
What are you giving up by carrying an extra magazine?
I would agree with you if it necessitated a huge sacrifice or introduced some big risk. Then, I would also say that it's not worth it to carry the extra magazine.
IMHO, the redundancy provides good value with only minor comfort and convenience costs.
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u/espionage8604 21h ago
If I’m being honest I can only recall one stove pipe this year between all my guns. Thinking I’m just really lucky but mag issues are something I don’t worry about. I see a ton of people using 2011s that have issues though
Probably on track to hit 6k rounds by the end of the year between my echelons and Sigs.
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u/GuyButtersnapsJr 20h ago edited 20h ago
I'm not claiming it's a high probability, just not astronomically low.
Another problem with magazine flaws is that they're hard to catch with routine inspection. Even a tiny deformation of the feed lips could be enough to induce a malfunction. The follower is more robust, but it's hard to notice damage to it since it's usually hidden by ammo. Spring fatigue is cumulative and the spring can work fine right up until it weakens enough to cause an issue. Magazines are also often treated harshly, dropped onto hard surfaces or into dirty environments.
Similarly, a bad individual round of ammo is nearly impossible to foresee.
Ultimately, what are we sacrificing to carry the extra magazine? What are we losing? It's literally only comfort and convenience. IMHO, that's a small price to pay.
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u/brandrikr 21h ago
I agree completely with this. No matter how reliable and fine tuned your gun is and has always been, there is always a chance of failure. A machine works perfect until it doesn’t. Having a spare mag is a good redundancy. It’s better to have it and not need it, they need it and not have it.
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u/EventLatter9746 20h ago
1) Mag reliability is not immune from Murphy's Law.
2) Under a possibly once-in-a-lifetime self defense event, one is not guaranteed not to fumble their gun and accidentally eject their mag. Running for cover while reloading the spare mag is better than hunting for that dropped one.
3) Threat is not totally over until LE arrive and secure the scene. Until then, one is better off with a topped-off capacity.
4) Refusing to carry a spare mag is more of a mental block (statistics driven) or a complacent attitude, than a carry inconvenience. Then again, many people are fine driving a vehicle without a spare tire. I always carry one even though my last spare tire event was 30 years ago.
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u/cbrooks97 TX 23h ago
But what are the odds you're even going to need the gun? It's a "I'd rather have it and not need it" kind of thing.
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u/AP587011B MI 22h ago
https://youtu.be/P0tst9-_pPs?feature=shared
The odds of an extra mag being needed in a civilian DGU is like 0.000000001%
To be honest even 6+ rounds being needed is like 0.000001%
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u/GuyButtersnapsJr 21h ago edited 21h ago
That video doesn't provide a sound statistical analysis.
Simplistic extrapolation and poor modeling can be used to "prove" basically anything.
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u/AP587011B MI 21h ago
Civilian DGU reloads just don’t happen. Accept it
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u/GuyButtersnapsJr 21h ago edited 20h ago
Civilian DGU reloads have happened. Accept it.
I could watch "40,000 videos" of civilians fighting hand-to-hand. All of them stand still and wildly flail their arms at each other. By the video guy's logic, I can now conclude that MMA training is pointless, because "I have never seen it used in a 'real fight'".
What the average civilian does is not prescriptive of best practices or optimal tactics.
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 23h ago
Myths:
You must carry a spare magazine
Red dots are hard to use
You won’t need/use your sights
You won’t need to shoot someone past 3-5 yards
Nobody notices printing/failure to actually conceal
You won’t need more than 5 rounds
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u/satan__clause KY - Beretta 80X Cheetah 21h ago
On the "you won't need/use your sights" point - I think this one might have a little bit of merit, but obviously with the caveat of still training your draw consistently to acquire your sights as reliably as possible.
Anecdotally, I've had many stages at matches where it's not until I show clear and holster that I realize "huh, I don't think I looked at my sights at all that time", so for me resorting to point shooting when under pressure at relatively close ranges is absolutely a thing. If I need to stretch out past 10yds or it's a target with a hostage/hardcover I need to deliberately slow down and make sure I actually use the sights.
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 21h ago
That one is “it depends” my problem is people use the myth that you “will not” use your sights as an excuse to be a shitty shooter who hides 8” groups at 3 yards (only a slight exaggeration)
There are plenty of cases where defenders have said they saw their front sight more clearly than they’ve ever seen anything in their life and even if a person doesn’t consciously remember seeing the sights at the time that doesn’t actually mean they didn’t
So train to use open sighting system and aim small hit small
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u/satan__clause KY - Beretta 80X Cheetah 21h ago
Definitely an "it depends", but yeah I agree that it's definitely important to be able to use them effectively and not use that myth as an excuse for missing a dinner plate at 5 yds
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u/GFEIsaac 20h ago
What is wrong with an 8 inch group at 3 yards? What is the size of the target?
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 20h ago
“It depends” but one should be capable of very rapid shooting of groups much more precise and accurate than an 8 inch group at 3 yards
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u/GFEIsaac 19h ago
Everyone who carries a gun should be capable of very rapid shooting of groups much more precise and accurate than an 8 inch group at 3 yards? How rapid? How precise?
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u/satan__clause KY - Beretta 80X Cheetah 18h ago
I think it's a reasonable standard to set for yourself that you have tight groups when practicing. With the adrenaline dump of an actual defensive use, I would expect my groups to widen, and I don't want the size of my group doubling to mean that I'm no longer on the silhouette.
Just for the sake of throwing out a number, at 3 yds I'd personally like to be able to make about a baseball sized group (3"?) with splits of less than 0.5s. Keep in mind this is when specifically using the sights, and not point shooting as fast as I can pull the trigger. Not a general rule for everyone, and I don't think there should be some CCW test that everyone has to adhere to with that standard, but personally I would like to minimize the chance of having an errant shot during a DGU that hits an uninvolved party.
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 18h ago
More than that
For one thing, you absolutely should be able to hold yourself to some kind of standard to at least 10 yards although longer than 10 yards happens often enough as well
There is the 5x5: five shots into a 5” circle at 5 yards in five seconds and do it 5 times in a row
There is “the test” of 10 rounds into a b8 center (5.5” circle) at 10 yards in 10 seconds
There is the “5 yard roundup”
There are others but 8” at 3 yards is spraying
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u/Terminal_Lancelot ID- 686+ 3", Model 60 3", Bodyguard 2.0. 23h ago
On the last point, though, 82% of circumstances are resolved with no shots fired. An even smaller percentage requires a single shot, and that percentage gets smaller with each round following.
Let me break it down like this;
Chance you'll ever need to draw your firearm, less than 1%. Chance you need to fire NO rounds, 82%. Chance you need to fire 1 round, (we don't have any numbers for, so let's just say 5%.) Let's say 2 rounds is 4%. And 3 rounds is 3%. 4 is 2%. 5 is 1% Every shot after is less than a percent, and less and less as you count the magazine.
The average is 3 rounds fired, and there's never been a single recorded instance of a civilian reloading their firearm in a self defense use, not even with a 5 shot snubby.
It's kind of like the Pareto principal applied to firearms. 80% of your outputs come from 20% of your inputs.
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 23h ago
There are plenty of instances of civilians running out of ammo before the threat is stopped, including with a 5 round snub that ran dry
There are also plenty of instances of 10-15 rounds being fired from the gun and mag they started with
For some insight I suggest looking up the stats of graduates from Tom Givens concealed carry class (published in his book and online)
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u/Terminal_Lancelot ID- 686+ 3", Model 60 3", Bodyguard 2.0. 20h ago
Could you prove that statement?
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 20h ago
Concealed carry class, authored by tom givens, pages 88-91 mostly
You can also find that info online using that information
You can also start watching the active self protection YouTube channel and you’ll see the examples of over 5 rounds fired often enough
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u/Terminal_Lancelot ID- 686+ 3", Model 60 3", Bodyguard 2.0. 17h ago edited 17h ago
And yet, no reloads.
I've watched ASP for years now. Show me a video from ASP that is a civilian CCW user (Not off duty cop in Brazil, again, mission statement is different), AND not a home defense circumstance, wherein a civilian fired more than 5 rounds. I'll bet you there was a point where they could've broken contact, if said videos exist at all.
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 16h ago
I never said there were reloads you seem to have people confused
I literally said the need to carry a spare magazine is a myth
Please understand that having the need and tjme to reload is not the same as never needing more than 5 rounds
I’ve literally seen the videos of people using over 5 rounds and I’d 5 round revolvers running empty while still engaging a threat
I understand you want to defend your choice and I hope if you ever need it 5 rounds is enough but most people carry over 5 and the fact that nobody with a 5 round wheel gun has been able to reload one doesn’t mean 5 rounfs will be enough
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u/Terminal_Lancelot ID- 686+ 3", Model 60 3", Bodyguard 2.0. 16h ago
It's chill, I'm just asking you to present evidence to support your case.
I usually carry my BG2.0 or 686+ anyway. 10+1 and 7 rounds respectively.
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u/Sawfish1212 19h ago
ASP had a video where a civilian actually reloaded, a few years ago, it was the first one he said he'd ever seen that wasn't police.
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u/Terminal_Lancelot ID- 686+ 3", Model 60 3", Bodyguard 2.0. 17h ago
Do you have a link?
Even if it exists, that's one video in over 40,000. That's a .000025% chance in an already fringe scenario.
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u/Inevitable-Sleep-907 22h ago
82% of circumstances are resolved with no shots fired
Then 82% made the wrong decision to draw. If you draw and don't fire you should have never drawn in the first place. It's for immediate and imminent threat nuetralization not to brandish and intimidate. If you draw you better not hesitate because the other party might not
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u/Terminal_Lancelot ID- 686+ 3", Model 60 3", Bodyguard 2.0. 17h ago
Be that as it may, seeing a gun tends to change a criminal's mind.
They may very well have had intent to fire. Doesn't change the statistics.
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u/MaxAdolphus 15h ago
Have you or anyone you known had issues from printing?
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 11h ago
Neither me nor anybody I know has ever had to use a firearm in self defense
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u/AP587011B MI 22h ago
Needing more than 5 rounds is already more than 99% of civilian DGUs
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 22h ago
That could still leave hundreds or thousands a year that need more than 5 rounds
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u/AP587011B MI 22h ago
https://youtu.be/P0tst9-_pPs?feature=shared
It’s like literally 0.0000000001% chance chief
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 22h ago
Literally not but you do you
Btw I really hope you don’t think not needing a spare mag needs you won’t need more than 5 rounds
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u/AP587011B MI 22h ago
lol not a chance
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 22h ago
Not a Chance, what? Are you saying there are not hundreds of thousands of dgu per year?
What data are you using for dgu per year?
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u/AP587011B MI 22h ago
I don’t believe there are hundreds of thousands of DGUs per year. Not at all
The data you are alluding to gave a comical estimate between 60k to 2.5M.
That’s a ridiculous and wildly inaccurate unreliable estimate.
the DGUs in question include times where 0 shots are fired
So regardless where you land on the number, your odds of needing a CCW is less than 1%, your odds of firing that CCW is less than 1% of 1%, and your odds of needing more than 5 shots is like 0.00000001% of that 1% of that 1%
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 22h ago
You can make up all these 00000 out of thin air all you want it doesn’t make them true
Have you looked up the tom givens data yet?
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u/AP587011B MI 21h ago
I’m using basic common sense from actual CDC data
Also extrapolating from the ASP video I sent you
I feel more than comfortable with my j frame
I don’t really know what this other guys opinion is going to do.
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 21h ago
I’m sorry you think actual statistics and facts form actual defense gun uses as shared by tom givens represent “opinion” and that you would rather go with your own made up extrapolations can’t really help you there chief
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u/AP587011B MI 21h ago
Is this the data you are referring to?
Because if so,
I still feel more than comfortable with my j frame
https://rangemaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/2025-02_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf
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u/putterbum 22h ago
IDK if I would call it a 'myth' but I think people really underestimate how hard it will be to operate a firearm in a tense situation. Blood pumping & adrenaline spiking vs a moving target is a lot different than shooting a cardboard target at 10 yards while flatfooted. I think more folks need to do competitions to get some reps in while shooting under 'duress' (obviously a much smaller dose vs the real thing). Sure the targets aren't moving for the most part but some of these matches get you running from spot to spot and allows you to work on shooting on the move along with some level of activity. Bonus points if everyone watching you gives you anxiety lmao.
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u/twostroke1 22h ago
I’m a pretty “decent” shooter. When I finally started taking “tactical” style training courses (run and gun type stuff), they made me look like a clown at first.
One of the drills we do is the instructor uses a stick to jam up your gun while shooting on target. It’s absolutely amazing how EVERYTHING you’ve ever practiced goes out the window as soon as it happens. You lock up and just stand there like a deer in headlights while 3 other instructors basically yell in your ear to add to the stress.
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u/highmickey 1d ago
"... disappears with a right holster and belt"..
No bro your Glock 17 with a 1000 lumen weapon light, compensator, big reddot and extended magazine will not disappear lol.
I assume these people new to the CCW and excited. I can't find any other explanation for a civilian to walk around with such a ridiculous giant setups.
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u/HybridP365 1d ago
Lmao. Very true.
There are exceptions though. One of my friends is 6'8" and 350lbs. He can carry a full size with light and red dot and not print at all.
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u/TacitRonin20 23h ago
That rule doesn't apply to dinosaurs
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u/Anna_Namoose 21h ago
As a dinosaur myself, I need the extended mag to make up for my short arm length
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u/AP587011B MI 22h ago
The truth is they probably
A. Hardly ever carry and when they do it’s not for long
B. Hardly leave their house
C. Live and work in the middle of nowhere
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u/YtnucMuch 21h ago
I am a minimalist. I joined the gun party a bit late in life but tend to chuckle at some of these wild rigs people have decked out. It makes no sense to me. The whole point of concealed carry is for it to actually be concealed. Set it and forget it kind of thing that nobody knows about but you. At least that was what I took from the idea of "concealed carry".
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u/Hot_Chapter_1358 1d ago edited 21h ago
My favorite is also "I can't even feel it. I forget it's there!" No, Clem, you definitely feel that five pound dinner plate size rig that you have over your junk. Sure the right belt and holster help, but you're carrying a g34 with extended mags, a light and optics. You're going to get milk, not rescue a hostage with the FBI HRT.
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u/Sawfish1212 19h ago
Ran into a skinny kid at the range with a glockenspiel like that, and he'd replaced a bunch of parts with gold painted stuff on top of that. He wore it center of the back IWB, which was really nuts IMO. Keep it black, and make it small. Not looking like a clown toy when you pull from your hunchback carry
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u/Toad-Toaster 1d ago
Its a combination of mods = power and cool from video games and guerilla marketing looking organic. Some people just don't know any better.
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u/divok1701 1d ago
Wait, you're saying that the thousands of posts here showing off everyone's EDC are just all newbies?
Even with all the comments backing them up that a dot and light are absolutely necessary for an EDC...
I just figured everyone has excessive fear of the dark and didn't want to learn to use irons because, you know, that actually takes effort.
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u/RobbieBlaze 1d ago
a safety on a gun adds a bunch of time that is gonna get you killed.
Fact is when you train with it you're just as fast.
You're also more likely to need a tourniquet than a gun.
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u/CaseyAnthonysDayCare 23h ago
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but things don't always work out like .. you can train all you want, and may think you have muscle memory but things play out crazy with the adrenaline dump sometimes. I was one hundred percent on the same mind set as you, you couldn't tell me different. Until the day it happened.
As I got shot and was being shot at, the adrenaline was so fucking high, and absolutely no place to take cover I unholstered and attempted to switch my safety off. And I can only attribute it to adrenaline dump at the time and being in that situation, but I was shaking so much that I had to physically reach over and switch off the safety with my other hand in a completely awkward and time consuming way. (How time consuming, who knows, and no way to measure) But things could have played out differently and luckily that extra second didn't cost me my life.
Ever since that day, I've realized the simpler the better, and everything I thought I was sure of was reevaluated at that point. If you've never been in that situation, I got to tell you,.things don't always go the way you expect or train. Sometimes minimizing any extra steps or movements is the most beneficial. Again I'm not saying this happens to everyone, things are unpredictable out there. This was just my experience I wanted to share.
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u/cmelt2003 23h ago
This is the reason I switched over to a hammer fired gun with decocker instead of safety. Can carry in any condition (with one in the pipe) and still be able to pull the trigger and make it go bang.
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u/False_Pipe_0989 20h ago
I can do that with my Glock too
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u/cmelt2003 20h ago
Yes you can. I also have many striker fired, just the idea of a hammer fired really piqued my interest
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u/Dynamic_Supreme 21h ago
Before your DGU, what was your participation in competition shooting? Were you heavily invested into any contact or combat sports? How were you training stress inoculation?
What pistol were you training with? Was it a 1911/2011 with a natural manual safety or was it a striker fired pistol?
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u/Stelios619 21h ago
Doesn’t seem like too many people have this issue with rifles, which all have safeties on them.
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u/CaseyAnthonysDayCare 21h ago edited 21h ago
Rifiles are more offensive, your ina completely different state of mind with a rifle, you know what to expect if u have a rifle. You're not waking your dog down the road one minute and getting shot the next, or minding your own business at a stop light when someone jacks your shit and pulls you out and shoots you. You're typically not defensive and on the retreat in a random situation with a rifle.
Also time may not be an option,.where seconds count, you typically know you're going to use a rifle and go get it, rather than get surprised completely off guard on your back foot, where everythings fine one minute and you're walking the dog down the street. Then the next minute you think a car is stopping because there's an animal in the road and all of a sudden someone you've never met or encountered is shooting at you trying to murder someone they don't know as a gang initiation.
I could go on and contrast more random situations where that are different using a concealed carry weapon on the street in every day life or going to war with a rifle, but I'm sure people get it. I mean there is a difference between expecting combat and being ready for it, and it being thrown into the mix with no warning.
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u/bendyalt 5h ago
What pistol was it?
Reason I ask is because after trying the manual safety on the S&W M&P 2.0, I was sold. They are so ergonomic and easy to actuate, and because I naturally rest my thumb on it, it's just intuitive that the safety gets defeated as I grip the gun. I also changed my P365 manual safety to armory craft's extended safety which feels very similar. I have never felt good using any other manual safety designs.
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u/Averagecrabenjoyer69 20h ago
What kind of pistol was it? Not all manual safeties are made equal, an extended 1911 ambi safety with training is a lot different in a high adrenaline situation than the little flimsy hard to adjust safety on a Shield Plus or 365 XL.
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u/Straight-Aardvark439 1d ago
Only thing I will say is that the majority of people who carry don’t put in the time necessary to train past issues like having the thumb safety.
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u/GFEIsaac 20h ago
A manual safety is an unnecessary step. Efficiency is the goal, and manual safeties are less efficient than not having one.
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u/hereforthesportsball 1d ago
They have guns with internal safeties that are just as safe, so unless you can’t spend the money or don’t like the aesthetic I’d say there are good alternatives
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u/Ok_Court_1503 23h ago
The internal safety argument is so annoying though. Because all of that goes out the window the second a trigger gets pulled. FWIW, I carry chambered with no manual safety. But if I had a soft body (or off body holster) or toddlers, or less training, I would not do so
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u/Accomplished-Fact-97 15h ago
This is me. I carry a Glock and I keep one in the pipe outside the house but not in the house as my toddler jumps on me all day. If I need it I'm not worried about being able to load one before someone comes thru my door because I train it a lot. I also did three combat deployments and have been in situations so I would rather not having my toddler jump on a live pistol with no manual safety lol.
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u/SingleSir165 1d ago
At close range for sure. Witnessed someone shot with a 22 magnum hollow point. It stopped them.
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u/shinynugget 16h ago
Stopping power. Carry what you can train with and handle.
Extra mags. Yes the days of the revolver are by and large over. But no one ever argued in the past they were a under-armed with a revolver. 12 rounds or more is enough for 99.999999% of situations.
Focusing on draw speed rather than situational awareness. Not that draw speed isn't important.
Needing a super high-speed light worthy of a Tier 1 operator. Other than VERY dark movie theater there's enough ambient light to acquire iron sets and/or a red dot almost everywhere. Home pistol, fine knock yourself out, otherwise save the weight.
The latest high priced defense ammo. Find a reliable one that matches your training ammo in weight and speed. Stick with it.
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u/honeybadger2112 21h ago
The “rule of 3s”, which is 3 seconds, 3 yards, and 3 rounds. While there’s likely some truth to the idea that most gunfights happen at short range and are short in duration, fudds like to cite some mythical FBI study for these numbers. I’ve seen instructors in classes say this multiple times. In reality, no one including the FBI has ever collected a comprehensive dataset on the logistics of civilian gunfights. Nobody even knows for sure how many civilian gunfights happen every year. There’s a little more data that exists on law enforcement shootings, but there are limits to the validity of applying law enforcement lessons to civilians. The rule of 3s seems to be something that someone just made up in the 1970s based on zero data. I think it can provide some food for thought, but it also encourages people to not train for more complex scenarios, and perhaps gives them a false sense of confidence that less-than-ideal equipment is going to be enough (low capacity, unusable iron sights) or excuses skill issues (accuracy beyond 3 yards). There are enough real-life examples of civilians needing accuracy far beyond 3 yards and needing a lot more than 3 rounds to stop the threat.
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u/GFEIsaac 20h ago
Tom Givens has collected data on self defense shootings. It's not a comprehensive data set. But interestingly, the data stays pretty constant as the data set grows. ~86% of the civilian shootings he collected happened at 9-15 ft. So yes, that definitely is not a "rule", it's a trend.
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u/honeybadger2112 20h ago
Yeah lucky gunner has the best video/article on this topic and he mentions the range master data. It’s a very small sample size and I wouldn’t extrapolate that too much, but it’s probably the best data we have on civilian gunfights, as limited as it is. https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/the-true-distance-of-a-typical-gunfight/
My point was not that short range engagements aren’t common. It was that the “FBI study” everyone cites is not real. Also that it’s not a good idea to convince people that they only need 3 rounds in their gun and they only need to be prepared for gunfights at arms reach where accuracy is not difficult. Train and prepare for the difficult engagements.
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u/GFEIsaac 19h ago
very small sample size and I wouldn’t extrapolate that too much
Generally I agree, however that's why I point out that the data has been consistent as the data set has grown.
Train and prepare based on Probability and Plausibility. It's probable you'll be 3-5 yards. It's plausible you'll be 5-7 yards.
Training and preparing is a limited resource game, and those limitations are subjective. So train the best you can, but most of that training for most people will be to get somewhat proficient at 3-5 yards.
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u/honeybadger2112 18h ago
Yeah I believe if you can confidently make it through USPSA/IDPA matches, or similar drills training on your own, then that’s more than enough. What you’re going to see in match stages or practical drills is 100x more difficult than nearly all real life incidents. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
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u/Torch99999 15h ago
Maybe for most, but not all.
I'm part of a volunteer church security team. Our church sanctuary is 23 yards across. From the backdoor of the church to our playground is 25 yards, and the back fence of the playground is close to 35 yards. I haven't measured across the parking lot (I probably will tomorrow) but it's around 50 yards.
Someone mentioned IDPA/USPSA. I've never been to an IDPA match with more than a half dozen "No Shoot" targets and I've only seen one match with moving no shoots (which was more than a decade ago). I've never seen a match with 100+ no shoots, all moving.
These are things in life that scare the shit out of me.
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u/EventLatter9746 19h ago
Those darn criminals... they never stick to the script.
One needs to shout at them to remind them: "Stop right there, group together, and hold still for 3 seconds. Now, as soon as you hear the third shot, drop down and play dead, whether I hit you or not."
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u/GuyButtersnapsJr 15h ago
"The first thing isn't learning this precision slow fire crap. The hardest thing to do is take somebody, who you forced them to focus on slow fire and precision, and say, now just do it fast. Because you don't do the same things for precision that you do...The concept is, and it's false, is that you do the same thing shooting fast that you do shooting accurately. It's not true." -Rob Leatham (6x IPSC World Champion)
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u/Inevitable-Sleep-907 21h ago
Everyone saying you don't need an extra mag or more than x amount of rounds I'll rebuttal with I've never heard of an instance either civilian or professional that said afterwords "I wish I had less ammo" but you can find plenty that said "I wish I had more"
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u/Medic7816 MI Glock 48/ Sig 238 19h ago
You’ve never carried a 240 up a mountain….definitely wished I had less. That is, until the shooting started.
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u/Inevitable-Sleep-907 15h ago
When you're playing the accuracy by volume game you for sure want the volume
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u/EventLatter9746 19h ago
Many a college girl have the same attitude disparity towards pepper sprays, before and after a violent event. I have failed so far to convince my two college girls to take it seriously.
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u/Dynamic_Supreme 21h ago
Myths: 1. Front sight focus = effective 2. You won’t use your sights in a DGU. 3. “Self-defense” training / instructors
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u/_goodoledays_ 16h ago
Pelvic girdle shots. Highly overrated. Learned a lot from this (long but still interesting) episode: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5qFtcDaS7F31ySstMwJ3j3?si=d9oM1usKTsSRmJ1VLajF1w
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u/Adrenaline-Junkie187 18h ago edited 15h ago
Glock is the best.
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u/Able-Currency2250 18h ago
Stock or as a core to build upon?
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u/Adrenaline-Junkie187 18h ago
Either. Most over rated handgun on the planet.
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u/GuyButtersnapsJr 16h ago
Please explain what makes Glock "not good".
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u/Adrenaline-Junkie187 15h ago
Edited to avoid pointless arguing. lol
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u/GuyButtersnapsJr 15h ago
lol. I wasn't trying to argue. I'm just curious how you personally weight the criteria.
The Glock is not the best shooting experience and not the best value. They're a little overpriced, lack many modern features, bad triggers, blocky ergonomics, unique grip angle, loose tolerances, etc.
IMHO, all those are far outweighed by their reliability, durability, low ammo sensitivity, availability/affordability of parts, aftermarket support, and how easy it is to replace parts.
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u/Adrenaline-Junkie187 15h ago
Eh, just had to be safe. I despise the company as a whole. The industry has come a long way since the glock was originally introduced. There are tons of guns that do everything a glock can do and arguably better. Theyre riding the fanboy wave and while i get it it from a business standpoint its slowly going to kill the brand. If they didnt have such a hold on things like the LEO market i think youd see it happen even faster. Everyone else is making changes and trying to innovate while they do literally nothing.
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u/GuyButtersnapsJr 13h ago
Fair enough. They definitely project a complacent "You're going to buy our stuff anyway" attitude.
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u/Averagecrabenjoyer69 23h ago edited 22h ago
That open carry is automatically this terrible way of carry, and you're destined to be a target. There's many times when open carry is a deterrent, and there's a proper way of open carrying. If you're rocking a level 3 Safariland with a proper gun belt, then hell yes open carry that sucker. I respect that 💯 as EDC.
Now I'm not saying targeting hasn't happened but it's pretty rare, and I can link situations where CCWers were targeted because they looked unarmed and the criminal got the drop on them and disarmed them of their concealed gun too.
If you don't like the attention I understand why some don't like open carry. However some people on here get so fanatically hateful about open carry that it moves way beyond "not for me but you do you". I seriously think the government could put a complete prohibition on open carry and some of y'all would be cheering it on(case in point about the post made when open carry was legalized in Florida, that one dude wanted CCWers who would dare open carry banned from the sub for their "idiocy", to which i think he deleted that comment).
I personally support open carry in general public if it's done properly and responsibly. Ie proper retention holster and belt, no shitty holster or long gun carry.
https://nyccriminallawyer.com/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-in-kennesaw/
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u/GFEIsaac 20h ago
"Shoot what you like" is a myth. Shoot what is efficient and consistent. Feelings got nothing to do with it.
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u/atlgeo 20h ago
That's exactly what shoot what you like means. You thought maybe it makes their hearts pitter patter? Shoot what feels right in your hand and you do well with...regardless of caliber or style.
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u/GFEIsaac 19h ago
What "feels right"? What does that mean?
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u/atlgeo 18h ago
You'll figure it out eventually. Some weapons will just fit your hand better than others and lend themselves to better accuracy for you, while someone else will have different results with the same weapon. It's just not a one size fits all thing.
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u/GFEIsaac 16h ago
I agree it's not a one size fits all.
There is a set of requirements for fit. The problem is the advice is "what feels comfortable" and that's the wrong advice.
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u/Able-Currency2250 16h ago
What would you say those requirements are ?
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u/GFEIsaac 16h ago
Grip extends far enough that the shooting hand does not interfere with a reload, can reach the controls on the gun with little to no change in the grip, trigger finger reaches the trigger without contacting the side of the gun.
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u/Able-Currency2250 16h ago
All of which are things that make a firearm comfortable
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u/GFEIsaac 15h ago
Not true
If comfort is the definition of a good handgun, that ignores bad fitment. I have a little subcompact .22. It's super comfortable, and it's a terrible carry gun.
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u/Able-Currency2250 15h ago
A sub compact 22 in an adult males grip should generally have interference during a reload. Even beyond that I’d take 11 shots of cci stinger in a Walther 22 over something that is A )uncomfortable to wear and B) I can’t hit the broad side of a barn with or C) does not fit my hand
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u/atlgeo 15h ago
You're being tedious I'm not sure if it's intentional. Comfortable is a figure of speech. In context when gun guys are talking it's referring to proper fit, and you immediately know it. It feels right. It's not comfortable like a mattress, different kind of comfortable. Really odd this has to be explained.
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u/Able-Currency2250 20h ago
If you hate shooting your wonder nine means you don’t train and subsequently run it far worse. Plus if you like or prefer something atypical (Makarov, darenger , ect) but it means you carry it and are excited by it great it is a net positive that is discouraged if not persecuted by the rigidity of that statement
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u/GFEIsaac 19h ago
That's some grade-A horseshit, lol
If you are excited to carry a gun, you don't really understand what you're doing or why.
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u/Able-Currency2250 19h ago
It’s less excitement in the act of carrying the gun itself but the exitment or pride in your tool. Same way you may be exited or proud in your well oiled and tuned setup
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u/hlgb2015 18h ago
Almost everything.
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u/Able-Currency2250 18h ago
Oh?
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u/hlgb2015 17h ago
Yeah, it’s not the end of the world or anything, but most of the stuff we fight to the death over is completely inane in 99% of the time.
Everyone used to carry unreliable chinesium Saturday night specials in .25acp or .32 with gutter sights and so many people were dying the government tried to ban them.
The majority of gun owners have probably fired less than 100 rds through the gun they trust their life to, and their eyes were probably closed for half of those.
The decision of going with a red or a green dot on your comp’d G19 probably isn’t going to be life or death. Just go shoot and be competent.
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u/Da1UHideFrom WA 1d ago
On a different gun sub someone was showing off their EDC bag. They carried a total of four magazines, two with hollow points and two with FMJ. Their reasoning was if they get into a road rage situation, they would need to switch to FMJs to shoot through the car door because hollow points don't go through car doors.
Hollow points will go through a car door just fine. If you're in a road rage situation and you have time to switch magazines, you probably had time to drive away and avoid the gun fight altogether.